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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

What is morally the right thing to do ? Please help - (long)

104 replies

crazychilledmummy · 08/07/2006 09:56

I need some advice here on whether to take my exP to court to claim half of his assets. We were together for 5.5yrs and now have a DS who is 11months. 2.5yrs ago I gave up my job earning approx £45,000 to go and live and work at his house and holiday rental place in France. I basically built up and ran the business, doing all the bookings, admin, built and maintained a website, produced all the brochures, did all the marketing etc., maintained the gardens, cleaned the holiday houses etc. and it gets about £15,000pa in bookings. When I became pg he was over the moon even though we were having problems but throughout the pg carried on drinking/driving and disappearing for hours on end leaving me stranded, all sorts of other stuff. At 8mnths pg I went into early labour down to the stress of it and had to drive myself and him to the hospital 15km away because he was too drunk to drive (this was about 4pm). He left me there distraught still having contractions a few hours later and drove home still drunk. When I got out of hospital 3 days later he told me to leave and get the overnight boat back to the UK. I told him I had nowhere to go and eventually left on the Wednesday, staying with some friends for a week or two until I could organise somewhere to live. I had decided anyway that I couldn?t stay in France so it was not only his decision that we parted. I have used up all but about £1,200 of my savings (about £16,000 in total) paying rent, buying all the stuff for DS, living etc. and am now on income support etc. totalling about £9,000pa out of which I have to pay my mortgage, bills, food, all stuff for DS. He bought the pram and gave me £400 last year but has now taken back the car I was using (even though he has 3 other vehicles he can drive) and has refused to help me to pay for a nursery for two mornings a week (£16pw per session). I was about to just write it all off and accept I?d have to manage on my own because I didn?t want things to turn sour and so prevent DS from having a relationship with ex-P that wasn?t in an atmosphere of acrimony but I?ve just found out that although he said he?s been too busy to come over and see DS (he?s seen him about 3 days in the last 5 months) that he has actually been over to the UK twice in the last month to see his new girlfriend but hasn?t even popped in to see his son (he practically has to go past the door to get to her). He doesn?t know I know about her or his visits. He met her on an exclusive holiday he paid about £3,000 for (which he found time for ? 3.5wks) and I?m told they are planning a long sailing tour around the greek islands. I really am not bitter that he has a new relationship but I?m beginning to think he doesn?t care for his son at all and so will never do the right thing either financially or in terms of seeing DS. I?ve just worked out that his assets minus my assets net of mortgages are about £500,000. Should I get a solicitor involved and try and get half? I am struggling with the morality of it, whether it?s the right thing to do. If I could possibly manage with nothing from him I would do it but my situation is affecting my son?s welfare and I know I won?t be able to give him everything he needs. I am also worried about alienating his family who have been fantastic and really want to keep in touch. Sorry for the enormously long post ! Any advice would be really appreciated ? I want to do what is right morally and for DS.

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crazychilledmummy · 10/07/2006 06:44

Only about £200,000-£250,000 are in France, the rest about £700,000 are in the UK. I'm sure I can't hope to get half but even if I end up with £1,000 it'll be £1,000 more than I'll see otherwise ! He already has a solicitor (very wily he is too) so am not expecting this to be easy. Although before we got together he did give his ex half of his assets when they split and they weren't even engaged let alone with children. I wonder if that will work in my favour? I know he has an extremely good pension built up too but I have no idea what the law is on that - maybe I could use it as a bargaining too - "be reasonable and I won't go after your pension"!!!! I'm feeling much better that this is the right thing to do after all your support. .

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crazychilledmummy · 10/07/2006 06:46

Only about 200,000-250,000 are in France, the rest about 700,000 are in the UK. I'm sure I can't hope to get half but even if I end up with 1,000 it'll be 1,000 more than I'll see otherwise ! He already has a solicitor (very wily he is too) so am not expecting this to be easy. Although before we got together he did give his ex half of his assets when they split and they weren't even engaged let alone with children. I wonder if that will work in my favour? I know he has an extremely good pension built up too but I have no idea what the law is on that - maybe I could use it as a bargaining too - "be reasonable and I won't go after your pension"!!!! I'm feeling much better that this is the right thing to do after all your support... I'm def having problems with my pound signs, hope that isn't ominous!!!!

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arfishymeau · 10/07/2006 07:17

LOL at ominous pound signs!

CCM, you sound like a lovely person. Your exp is entirely in the wrong here, for many things. I was horrified at how he threw you out with a newborn and couldn't drive you to the hospital.

I'm pleased you're going to a solicitor, let us know how you get on.

crazychilledmummy · 10/07/2006 10:42

Just spoken to a solicitor and he has said because ExP has been very careful not to put anything in joint names I have no claim on him at all. I can't stop crying. My son is going to suffer growing up because of that b*stard while he swans around reaping the income from my hard work. Yesterday I had to weigh up whether to buy a jar of coffee or tea bags because I couldn't afford both. DS is going to find school really hard because he'll never be away from me because I can't afford any nursery for him. Why is there no justice in the world?

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pindy · 10/07/2006 11:15

No matter how nice his parents are - now is the time to tell them about it. Think of your son, I'm sure they will do all they can to help make sure their son takes his responsibilities seriously. Good luck! x

Straightforward · 10/07/2006 11:22

Oh ccm - that's so awful . I'm no expert on this at all, but is there anyone on this forum who can give legal advice, as what your solicitor said sounds a bit weird to me.

Wishing you lots and lots of luck.

crunchie · 10/07/2006 11:22

You might not have a claim, but your son does. He has to pay maintenence for your son.

That is the law, I would call the CSA (Useless, but first place to start) and go to the Citezens Advice Bureau. They will help you find out what you are entilttled to. I think you solicetor maybe mistaken in some ways.

Pierre · 10/07/2006 11:25

Why don't you go after him under the French system? He has property here and a child born here. You were officially his "concubine" (!) and the mother of his child and as such you have rights. I would go after him in France.....

meowmix · 10/07/2006 11:29

what an ... anyway. In my view you have a moral responsibility TO go for child support and if that involves causing his parents distress then I'm afraid thats just collateral damage. His father obviously feels something isn't quite right already from what you say.

explore your rights under French law. Your son has the moral high ground here.

Plus quite honestly it sounds like he exploited you for years. Time for him to be exploited back.

Pierre · 10/07/2006 11:38

You have to come to France and "porte un plainte" for "abondonnment de famille". You need to give a contact French address and to explain that you have had to return to the UK as he refused to support you here in France and you had to make a living blah blah blah. This will be referred onto a family judge and they will contact him and you and take it to court. You will need a French lawyer but you can do without if you wish. You can ask for an interpreter.

At the same time, contact your local caf (where you are staying or used to live) and ask what you would be entitled to as a "femme seule". You might find life a single mother easier here than in the UK - free nursery, playschemes, school lunches, holiday care etc. My childminder costs (i don't work) for example, are around 190€ per month for two days a week, and I am refunded 180€ as part of the state childcare scheme. If I was a single parent, I would not pay a penny. Ditto healthcare, minimal rent etc.

And it would probably piss him off something rotten..... the french are very adept at getting forgetful fathers to pay up!

Contact me if I an be of help.

crazychilledmummy · 10/07/2006 11:45

CSA say they have minimal jurisdiction because he lives in France and has declared minimal income in the UK (he has a very canny accountant). The thought of claiming in France... How on earth would I do that? My french is not up to legal battling and I have no money for translators or solicitors. He is telling them that he isn't resident only a holidaymaker there and anyway has no french income at all so presumably they couldn't make him pay anything.

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Pierre · 10/07/2006 11:48

You will get a translator and lawyer free. Whereabouts were you in France?

If he is running a business here, by definition he has to pay taxes (even if only taxe d'habitation, which is for his property) and should be traceable incomewise. You report him and sit back and wait. Can you get over? Have you got msn?

crazychilledmummy · 10/07/2006 12:10

We were in Normandy. We paid Taxe H'abitation but he has no french income. He always transferred money from the UK into his french bank account to pay bills. I can't get over to France, I can even afford a taxi into town !!! - (well you have to laugh don't you?!). No don't have MSM.
I'm considering an email to his sister to see if she's willing to talk to him but without giving her any details incase she doesn't want to know anything bad about him.
Sorry for emotional post early, I've calmed down a bit now. Rescuing DS from eating the cat food distracted me from feeling sorry for myself !

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crazychilledmummy · 10/07/2006 12:13

Pierre, did you say you get some of your childcare paid for even though you don't work? I didn't think I could get anything unless I worked and don't think I'll be able to find a job for two mornings a week which is all I'm prepared to leave DS for at the mo. I have an appt with a lone parent adviser from the benefits people tomorrow...

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crazychilledmummy · 10/07/2006 12:15

Pierre, sorry ignore that last post just saw you are living in France.

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Pierre · 10/07/2006 12:17

Have a look at www.caf.fr

If you have a young child (was he born in France) you are entitled to PAJE which is child benefit for a young child and childcare.

Why not ring an english speaking lawyer

meowmix · 10/07/2006 12:25

In case his sister doesn't want to hear anything bad?

Honey - you're not bitching about the guy, you're trying to get support for your (and his son). Sure sanitise accounts by all means but honestly you need to channel your inner bitch a little here. His sister probably doesn't want to hear that her brother is the kind of low-life pond scum that would leave a child in this situation (while fiddling the tax laws in 2 countries) but unless you tell her and his dad that you won't get anything!

You sound like a lovely, gentle person and I really admire the sentiment but imo you need to get a bit angrier to fight for what is morally right here.

crazychilledmummy · 10/07/2006 12:34

meomix, I know what you are saying but ultimately exP probably won't listen to his family anyway and they will just end up hurt knowing what he's like and what he has done. They have been like family to me and they love DS to bits, why should they suffer because of him when it'll probably do no good anyway. I probably do need to get angry but getting upset and angry ended up with me in hospital endangering my DS. I'm scared if I start to let myself feel like that DS will pick up on it. Oh, god. Maybe you are right and I should just blurt it all out in an email and send it to her and his brother too and ring up the french authorities and tell him about his scams and the UK tax people too. I also still maintain the website for the holiday homes (free of charge I might add, what a mug) - how tempted have I been in the early hours worrying about all this to put up a full account on the home page of what he's done. The thought of being able to do it keeps me sane at least !!! And all the lovely people on mumsnet of course...

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meowmix · 10/07/2006 12:42

I do see your point of view, truly I do but where's it getting you? Your son has a relationship with his grandfather and aunt presumably - surely they would want to help make his life more easy/secure.

And as for maintaining his website. Charge him. Find out the going rate and charge him, explaining that you're being forced to do so because you need to feed and clothe his son.

Also if you can do that for him from home then why not see if you can do it for other similar companies for a decent rate. Just don't tell him.

you will get through this. Mumsnet is full of people with useful advice and the ability to push when needed.

crunchie · 10/07/2006 12:48

You don't need to get personal when speaking to his sister and dad, but you do need to tell them what is going on, in that he is not giving you a penny and you cannot afford to drink coffee and tea!! It is their Grandson/Newphew and assuming they are decent people (which sounds like they are) they will want to help. If you explain simply taht he isn't paying any maintenence and although you don't want them invoved, you have nowhere else to go blah blah blah, would they perhaps talk to him for you as you are not getting anywhere. Tell them you are desparate to sort this out amicably, and quickly. But you may end up taking him to court otherwise.

GOOD LUCK

crazychilledmummy · 10/07/2006 13:18

I've just sent an email to his sister saying would she be willing to intervene because I'm at my wits end and its affecting DS without giving any details. Just read it back and it sound like I'm flipping mad ! oh god...

meomix - I'm seeing lone parent adviser tomorrow to see how working from home affects the benefits I get. I'm pretty determined when I get going and used to have a good client base so I'm sure I could earn some money this way.

Just had a sweetness and light email from exP saying he wants to come over and see DS next week. Not sure whats brought that on but I assume he's coming over to see his girlfriend anyway. At least he's willing to see his son at the same time too. They must be keen on each other as apparently she's going over to France to see him on Friday. He has no idea I know about the girlfriend or was thinking of a solicitor, or that I've contacted his sister. Oh god...

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meowmix · 10/07/2006 14:38

Good! It'll be worth all this agonising in the end.

crazychilledmummy · 10/07/2006 17:39

Just had to pop on and give you an update. Ex rang out of the blue just now and I told him I'd contacted his sister to try and mediate and bluffed a bit about being able to take him to court to claim half of all his assets and then I suggested he give me half of the increase in the value of the business in France whilst I was living and working out there on account of my loss of earnings from a good job and the work I put in. And in return I would never ask him for any financial help in the future with DS. And he has said he is willing to consider it. I am absolutely gobsmacked. I think he was shocked I was getting tough and that I'd been in touch with his sister about it. I don't think he thought I'd ever do it. Fingers crossed, will let you know what he says. Thanks everyone, its all the responses that gave me the courage to do this. He is going to talk it through with his sister and let me know by the end of the week. God, I hope she makes him see sense. Maybe I'm getting tough but I hope he has a sleepless night instead of me for a change worrying about losing some of his money. .

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yummummy · 10/07/2006 18:07

Hi crazychilled.. just read this post from beginning and excuse me for adding my four penn'orth but it sounds to me like he's running scared, saying he'd "think about it"- which suggests to me that perhaps he knows if you went through the courts you'd get more..would be worth checking this out as if you take a one- off payment then find yourself in dire straits in years to come and he's not paying you child support you'll have nowhere to turn for your lovely son. Also he doesn't sound like the type of guy to ring "out of the blue" so perhaps his sister gave him the heads up that you are looking into the legal side of things.. be strong, don't let him deny your son the support he so deserves.. and remember also that the time you've lost and will lose in pension payments will come back to haunt you later in life.. he should contribute towards that too. You can bet he's asked till the end of the week so he can find out if you're going to be entitled to more so he can feel he's fobbed you off..
Honestly, men are unbelievable....you sound so brave and strong, I'm really impressed.. keep it up girl

crazychilledmummy · 10/07/2006 18:26

YM, Any two penneth very, very welcome... Possibly I'm very naive but I don't think his sister would do that although blood is thicker than water. Re. him finding out what I'm entitled to according to the solicitor I spoke to I'm not entitled to anything at all apart from what the CSA can drag out of him which will be 0 because he is living in France which is beyond their jurisdiction and only declaring £8,000 of his income in the UK (god knows how he is doing that, he earns at least 5 times that from his properties - or maybe he lied about only declaring 8,000 - hmmm). My thought was that it was far more than I could hope to get out of him over the next 16 years. I'm normally pretty smart but my head is spinning now. Maybe its lack of sleep. I haven't committed to anything on paper so guess nothing is irreversible.

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