Support for those in Emotionally Abusive relationships: thread 27

[CharlotteCollinsinherownplace]

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
A check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
Why financial abuse is domestic violence Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
Warning signs you’re dating a loser Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie If you’re a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out - You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
Heart to heart - a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

What couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
Should I Stay or Should I Go bonus materials This is a site containing material for men who want to change - please don’t give him the link - print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
What you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

Bounty, he doesnt call you fat anymore because he knows you will leave. What the hell is it with these men. My FW doesn't count how many times I move in bed anymore because he knows I'll leave. But he still flicks my bottom lip, kicks me if I snore, wakes me up all the time.
And in his head ive asked him to stop doing something and he has. So whats my problem? Hes changed so it must be me!
God its all exhausting. Ive decided this morning to stopthinking so much and try to start doing more towards leaving. Need to get money sorted first.
Thinking of you all.

The boiledfrog

well done.
I did the same, I move next week. Yes Ive had to claim benefits to do so but rather that than live in misery.

good luck

Exterminate thank you. I will need to claim to for a while until the kids are old enough so I can work full time.

Good luck and so well done with you move. I hope I'm not too far behind you.
Xx

same, I have 2 under two.

Its scary but liberating (well it was for me as my relationship was also financially abusive).

Its a few weeks or form filling stress but once its sorted its a big weight lifted.

I've left my P! :)
I have some time, so here goes.
The letting agency sent my draft copy of letting conditions, to my house. So he opened my mail and then I left.

He saw n on Monday for 15 minutes, and then left, not saying anything. I've been living at my mums place and they have been wonderful, and it's been cry weird having help. That's when the police came around to take a statement, and they were wonderful.

Tuesday
I got the keys to my new place and was phoned work to let them know I would be in on Tuesday.

Wednesday,
I was at work all day,

Thursday,
Had my very good friend around my new place and she bought me a kettle, and some stuff. Then I had my benefits check and I was pleasantly surprised. Then it was the evening and I moved my stuff out. P wasn't there. Which was wonderful, also I have too many books! I thanked everyone with fish and chips.

Friday.
Went to lawyer, and she was very good. I have several choices.
1, I fight to get the house. But I don't think I'll get it.
2, I get my share of money.

1. I try and get more money for my share.

For visiting (for which I have no idea about)
P wants to see n two days a week, but between Monday and Friday. Not on the weekend. So I've asked her to send him a letter to make sure he doesn't want weekend contact.

Then maintainable payments. It's about 15% of his net income. I have no idea what that figure should be.

The lawyer advised to go through the agency's, but I've asked her if we can sort this out amicably between ourselves, if he plays up then I will follow her advice.

Still got lots of address changing to do
Plus I'm meeting P at a indoor soft play, so he can see n. I'm not looking forward to it. But I have to try.

Any Adivce welcome, also he keeps asking me about my lawyer and have I seen her.
Evil

Evil

Well done & congrats.

google csa calculator you can work out his payments.

Glad you are out and getting settled. Fresh start

Congratulations evil :-D

No advice because I am way behind you. I can hear your happiness in your posts.

Good luck x

evilwater I've reported your post as I think you've accidentally included DS's name. Well done though!!

Well done Evil.

I'm hoping some of you wise women can help me. I am feeling completely at the end of my tether with my FW. We've been separated for a year, and are going through a sticky sticky divorce. I have always known that he has a history of mental illness, and is/was very controlling. This has been blown into sharp focus by the issue of contact with the children, and after a year I'm about ready to drop with exhaustion from it all.

For a few months now, we have been trying and failing to negotiate contact. I feel like I am really reasonable, that I am bullied relentlessly by him, and that the only way for it all to stop is just to give him what he wants. I'm not prepared to do that, so have made an application to court.

Basically, he wants to have them for 3 weekends out of four. Each weekend the contact is different, and he goes on and on and on about how if you break down the days over a monthly period, it's completely fair to both of us. Sorry to bore with it all, but he proposed:

Wk 1 - Friday to Saturday
Wk 2 - Friday to Sunday
Wk 3 - Saturday to Sunday
Wk 4 - no contact

Our DC are very young and so far we haven't been able to make a Friday pm contact work because FW lives an hour away, works very long hours, and is unwilling/unable to come and collect them. Despite his constantly telling me this schedule is 100% fair, it doesn't feel like it to me. To me it feels like only once a month could I plan to go away with the DC. It feels hugely disorienting because every w/e is different. And for only one weekend and one other weekend day per month, can the children actually socialise or do anything at the place where they live, surrounded by their friends and family. I am proposing EOW, midweek overnight if it can be made to work given their young age (if not, have said that he can come and put them to bed once/twice a week at home), Skype whenever, and that on 'my' weekends with them I am more than happy for him to spend eg. Sundays with him if we are free. I regularly offer this and have done for months.

He constantly lets the DC down at the last minute, saying that the "interim agreement" is not satisfactory. He cancels contact all the time, saying it is in their best interest because he's 'fighting for the long term'. Even when they are expecting him. Once he turned round on the train mid journey and went home because I sent him a text asking him to let me know next time he was going to be an hour late, because they were sat waiting for him with backpacks on waiting for him :( I cannot take it any more, I feel relentlessly bullied. In order to facilitate the DC staying for 2 nights at the weekend given his long working hours and because he has been insistent on sharing the transport 50/50, I get up and get the train first thing in the morning to where he lives to collect them so he can go straight to work.

Does anyone have any coping strategies for any of this? This weekend for example I had offered for him to see the DC tomorrow, heard nothing all week, just now I get a stream of abusive emails again about how I'd destroying him by going to the CSA, that he is working all the hours because he has to "because of the fucking CSA", and how he has been too busy therefore to reply to my request but actually would like to see the children. I know they would love to see him - they are starved of contact, he refuses to ever Skype or phone them because it "dilutes his case" of going for the three weekends a month. So because I know they would love to see him I find myself forever caving in to his demands.

Sorry for the essay. Feel like I need some sort of 'divorcing someone with a personality disorder' support group. It is relentless and horrific!

Free do you have a solicitor? Someone needs to enforce boundaries here, and it should not be you alone. You are being relentlessly bullied, it doesn't just feel like it.

All the advice I have had is that the courts would uphold alternate weekends on the basis that children should have quality time with both parents. To that end, I would not offer him any time on 'your' weekend. That muddies the waters (if there is anything I have learnt from my legal bill, it is DO NOT muddy the waters). His time. Your time. End of. You don't say how old the children are, but if overnights are too much, then out of house contact once a week (4 - 6pm or something, you don't want him in your home, if he bullies you), which can be extended as they get older. Skype, if they are young, at set times, so you can plan, it can be 'whenever' when they are older and can initiate it themselves. Skype is intrusive, it brings him into your home.

Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. If he is messing you around this much, it is not clear what you have gained from separating. He is still abusing you and DC. DC will benefit from a consistent contact schedule which allows them time with both parents. If you run around after him, because DC would love to see him, it teaches DC that they too have to run around after him, wait at stations etc (Do not let them sit for an hour waiting at a station, take them home/do something else and ask him to contact you when he is there; they are worth more than that and that needs to be clear to them).

Sorry if I sound harsh, I can see why you are exhausted and I absolutely sympathise, but you are still pandering to this man and you need to close down his opportunities to make you run. It is very hard, I know. You do have a right to undisturbed time with your children, to not be verbally abused when you arrange contact, and your DCs have a right to a consistent schedule and to be picked up on time. Work out what you are prepared to do/put up with, and stick to it.

Will pm you a website for your last sentence.

Thank you so much for your advice (and for the PM); much appreciated. I know with a bit of reflection that the reason I pander to him so much is precisely because he has this habit of continually berating me for "destroying" his relationship with the children, whilst at the same time causing us untold grief and refusing to see them. Since we separated there have been two separate incidences of approx 6 week periods where he didn't even speak to them once, let alone see them. It's a peculiar kind of torture to have to deal with the fall out from that with the DC, who are so fucking confused and upset when it happens, and at the same time be told that it's my fault it's happening. He tells me I'm making things so hard for him that he is contemplating walking away from a relationship with them altogether because I am making it impossible for him to have a proper relationship.

Lots for me to think about. Thanks again for taking the time to respond, off to peruse the site you sent me.

Sorry I forgot to add, yes I do have a lawyer, although I have had to make the decision to handle the children matter myself because the costs were becoming ridiculous. We have spent thousands seemingly arguing over the minutest detail, such as who takes the DC to their activities on 'his' weekend. His complaints are never ending and he will randomly cancel a whole weekend of contact just because he didn't like the transport suggestions I come up with, for example.

I'm starting to seriously worry about the impact his irregular contact has on them and if I ever bring it up with him he accuses me of starting an argument, or being hyper-critical. But I am worried that he is teaching them not to rely on him. I told him recently that the reason I think that they get very upset when he leaves is because they are developing an insecure attachment to him: namely, they do not know when they will see him again. I told him he must do whatever he can to prevent that, and he just saw red and as a huge criticism of him, when all I want him to do is to be a man of his word and keep to it.

It is not your fault. The berating is emotional abuse and manipulation.

One of the best pieces of advice I got from the Lundy book, which I revisited a couple of weeks ago, is concentrate on you and DC. Build their life strong with you. Close down the opportunities for him to cause you grief/berate you (quick handover, no text or phone conversations, don't respond to emails which are not about arrangements etc, if you have a solicitor, let him know you will forward on all correspondence for his/her files), whilst still holding the door open for (regular and consistent) contact.

His relationship with them is his responsibility, it really is. If he doesn't turn up for six weeks, get on with your lives, encourage DC to get on with their lives, there is a whole world out there for them to explore, it is up to their father if he wants to be part of that, you can't make him.

He seems to think it's all about him, and his relationship with the children. When it's about their relationship with him. I'm sure you've told him they need consistency, reliability and predictability. Does he agree that's what they need? He's certainly not providing any of that (except insofar as he's predictably unrealiable and inconsistent).

I hate to say this, I really do, but NC could be best all round in the long run ( for DC) I suppose he'd take it to court though, if you went that road.

I may be talking nonsense, as I don't have direct experience of this. Just trying to help you think it through.

x-post.

Totally sympathise re costs. But your solicitor should not be allowing this to escalate over minute details - his weekend, his responsibility. All you need to arrange is a pick-up/drop off handover point and time. That is all. You get them there, he collects them and vice versa when they come back. it is not your job to be making transport suggestions to him.

have you been to mediation?

To be honest, silvery, I'd be surprised if he would take it to court, as he wants to use his inconsistency to maintain his control. A court would give him a consistent arrangement, he would be expected to keep. Where is the power in that?

You are right that it is about their relationship with him, and all I can suggest there is build up the relationships they have with other decent and reasonable people in their lives so it is not all about him.

Thanks for your thoughts, both.

I think I am responsible for allowing the costs to escalate quiet because I have continued to try to be 'reasonable' in order to facilitate contact when my lawyer urged me to be more hardline. We even agreed a roundtable meeting with our lawyers (at vast expense; I can't even bear to look at that part of the bill) so we could discuss contact. Nothing was agreed, in fact at one point he threw a pen across the room and stormed out. We tried mediation, it was a complete failure - he was shockingly rude, really jaw-droppingly offensive. After the first session he complained that he didn't think the ex-barrister mediator we had was good enough for the job, so the company gave us the founder of the company to sit in on sessions too, at no extra cost. He had been mediating for 30 years and we still got nowhere. Again, FW was unbelievably angry and offensive, and I pulled out after that. I just couldn't afford it at the time, with almost no income (having been left as a SAHM with him cutting off all access to money).

We're about to swap Forms E so my lawyer is telling me to concentrate on that and not think about the children matter until afterwards when I think we will see how things look. CAFCASS have just got in touch and in general I am terrified about the whole process. Perhaps I should call them and have a chat.

I could kick myself now, he emailed earlier to say he'd been busy this week so hadn't replied but he'd like to see the DC tomorrow if it's not too late. In a moment of madness I mentioned it to them and now I've not heard anything back from him because I sent a very very vaguely snippy response. I deliberately hadn't mentioned anything about it up till now, why did I do that?!! :(

PS: quiet - I didn't wait with them at a station for an hour, it was him collecting them from home. I wouldn't have done that. The sad fact with him and whatever condition it is that he has, is that he claims to be devastated by his loss of contact with the children. And yet he stops himself seeing them all the time, whilst blaming me for it. I just don't get it, because wild horses wouldn't keep me away from my children.

Sontaran - I just don't know whether I'd ever be able to follow through with NC. I do hear you though, and the prospect of making such a decision frightens me.

We even agreed a roundtable meeting with our lawyers (at vast expense; I can't even bear to look at that part of the bill) so we could discuss contact.

Ouch, had one of them too. And yes, it was a horrendous experience. What do you think would happen if you just stopped responding? (I tend to agree with your lawyer, by the way, but that is only through experience).

DD's dad (not the same ex) was inconsistent and I did have times of waiting up to an hour for him in public places, so it was not a judgement on you, just something I learned the hard way.

free I'm not at this stage yet so no very little, but you sound like you're getting your head together in terms of being more hard line. Which as an outsider reading your posts does seem the only option. Good advice and experience from the others backing this up too. My only other thought is that he really does not get the whole 'fair' thing does he? Contact is for the dc benefit, not his. I agree with you 100% regarding the wild horses wouldn't keep you away from the dc. Out of personal interest for me, prior to leaving did you think he'd be a good dad who would really want to spend time with his dc. And would battle for them because be genuinely wanted to spend time with them, rather than just to upset you?

I need you to indulge me in a mini rant please. Had a really bad evening and came within a heartbeat of walking out there and then. Only 2 things stopped me. 1. The risk of a massive scene in front of dd as don't think fw would let me leave with her and 2. Really need to see the sol first to be as sure as I can be that as fw has been sahd (well sit at home alone whilst dd is at nursery dad) that I'm not at danger of not being primary carer.

But this evening dd was sat with me looking at pictures on the ipad and fw moaned that I'd not done anything educational with her all day. She is 3 and has been to a party today so is tired and has a cold too. I loaded up an educational app to do with her and he hit the roof as I should have been using a pen and paper. Stormed off. When ha came back in we were watching strictly with dd snuggled on my lap. I was cuddling her and had my arms round her. He said that I shouldn't sit like that as was preventing her from getting away if she wanted . I replied that if she wanted off than of course I'd let her move but was just feeling loved and being cuddled with me. He stormed off again as apparently I was telling him he didn't love her right.

Then once she was in bed I had a real assassination. Apparently I make her look stupid by tying her hair in ponytail. Pointed out this was practical and doesn't really matter what a 3yr old looks like. He said it matters to him and that I'm trying to control her but doing her hair ( like I do mine and it looks awful on me too!). Also I plan too much of the day which is awful and he hates as he likes just mucking around with her and chilling. The best day is when I'm at work!

I know there's nothing more to be said. Just need to get it out. And really hope that the sol doesn't think I'm in with a chance of less than 50% custody. Don't know what I'll do if that's the case :(

Strictly is educational ;-) - or educational enough for a Saturday evening. What a load of hair-brained nit-picking of non-issues.

When are you seing the solicitor?

Next week.

bounty that is awful, the crap he is spouting . What a cruel thing to say, about the best day being when you are at work. Meanwhile he's happy to reap the benefits of you working

God, are there any normal men out there? The more I chat on here and in rl, the more they all seem to be from a pattern.

To night mine tried to grab me in an "affectionate" hug in the boob area. Given that we've been separate for over a year, this was inappropriate, to say the least. I swung away from him on instinct and he then proceeded to shout, scream, cry (dcs listening) and beat himself in the head. DCs confused, horrible all round, Thank God for a bit of Strictly and Dr Who to make them feel a bit normal, then bed.

breathe.

he sounds like a nutter. I would have swung for him too!

bounty - I agree with the others; your night sounds awful and yes, what a load of complete mindfuckery he came out with. The worst one in my mind is trying to make you think that what was actually a lovely intimate moment between you and DD was something to be regarded with suspicion. What a load of bollocks.

Re. your question as to what I thought he'd be like prior to us separating, I have to be honest and say I was always suspicious. But unlike some exes who 'can't be bothered' or whatever, my situation feels tortuous in a way because he is insistent that if only I'd do the right thing the children could have the perfect relationship with him. He isn't out drinking, or gives any impression of not giving a shit. He gives the impression of a broken man who, if you met him on the street, would no doubt convince you that his evil ex-wife was destroying all that he cared about in the world. Like father like son though, his dad 'lost' two families and with his second family was only allowed to see the children through a contact centre. H spent his whole life believing his father to be innocent and to be the victim of cruel vindictive women. I'll never forget how rapidly the scales fell from my eyes on that front as I got to know his dad who is clearly a misogynistic person with mental health problems himself. Have just had to break it to the DC that despite my stupidly mentioning last night that he'd said he could see them today, there's now been no other word. And of course as per usual I'm going over my reply to him and wondering if he could say it was rude enough to justify him not making any arrangements or getting back to me.

Sorry Breathe forgot to add my sympathies too. So annoying that even a long time after separation this awfulness continues.