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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Ex DH not getting 5 yr old DD to sleep until 10 on school nights

105 replies

Piaffle · 19/10/2013 10:44

Really don't know what to do about this. DD is 5. We share custody 50/50 and because of his job he has her on 3 school nights.

He is aware of all the research that says how much lack of sleep damages children. He thinks education is important but still does this.

When is is in a good mood he will agree she should be in bed for 8, so as to be asleep for 8.30. He never actually does this though and when he is in a bad mood he will claim that he never agreed that in the first place.

He is a good dad in most other ways and I think don't think a court would stop her living with him just because of this. I also think a custody battle would be more damaging for DD than lack of sleep .

It is parents' evening soon but I think it would be wrong to try and get the teacher onside with this as she would be getting involved in an argument between divorcing parents. He would be very good at making me look bad for doing that. He is very good at looking reasonable to the outside world.

Also it might be difficult as DD doesn't necessarily act 'tired' but it comes out in moodiness, whinyness etc.

I could cry. The days when I can't wake her up are so horrible, and I'm sure it's affecting her at school. He says any behavioural problems at school are because I have broken up the family.

I feel like saying I will not take her in on days when she is too tired, but again, I think that will make me look like the unreasonable one.

Is there anything you can suggest, I don't know what to do!

OP posts:
BasilBabyEater · 20/10/2013 11:19

But I also agree with Moxie there's very little the OP can do about it - children's needs are not put first in the court system, it's all lip-service.

Original poster
Piaffle · 20/10/2013 11:23

aurynne There is no similarity between lack of sleep and what sort of clothes she dresses in. Missing out on sleep is a serious thing. At the moment he is making his own mistakes and DD is suffering (albeit it won't kill her)

Moxie nobody is suggesting that SS should get involved.

It's more that a consistent getting up time would be more likely to lead to a consistent falling asleep time.

OP posts:
Original poster
Piaffle · 20/10/2013 11:23

X post with Basil!

OP posts:
BasilBabyEater · 20/10/2013 11:23

Yes I think the advice to allow her to catch up on sleep at your's, is wrong - it just enables his shit "parenting".

RandomMess · 20/10/2013 11:25

I wonder if her wasn't feed her enough calories and was keeping her hungry 3 days on the trot some of these posters would feel the same, that was ok provided that you fed her up on the other 4 days of the week!

BasilBabyEater · 20/10/2013 11:32

Well what if the OP decided she was going to keep her DD up till 10PM every night, for the sake of consistency?

Would those posters be telling her it's OK, it's parenting "her way" and sod the needs of the child?

RandomMess · 20/10/2013 11:40

I would be almost tempted to say to him, "you know you're right I think as dd needs a consistant bedtime I'll start putting her to bed at 10pm too - it's much better of we can agree on these things" wonder how long before he'd change his tune!

flippinada · 20/10/2013 11:43

I think doing what's best for her DD is what's important here. Let's face it, he'll only stop this when it inconveniences him in some way or he thinks it isn't upsetting the OP. Mine didn't listen to anyone, he knew best (as they all do) and just did what suited him.

It's utterly infuriating and enraging but in reality there's not much you can do about issues like this, unless you want to start going down more a formal route (which OP has indicated she doesn't want to do), and even then it's limited.

Tbh I'm surprised there haven't been more 'how dare you tell him what to do' and 'you sound controlling' type posts.

flippinada · 20/10/2013 11:45

Agree BBE far too much emphasis by some (not aimed at anyone, just speaking generally) on their rights and not enough on the rights of the child.

heidiwine · 20/10/2013 11:55

There is a fine line between poor parenting and neglect. I work with neglected children and they DONT get put to bed. They fall asleep when they can't stay awake any longer (and it's often not in a bed). What the OP's ex is doing is poor parenting but it is absolutely not neglect. If you seriously think going to bed an hour later at her dad's two nights a week constitutes neglect then why aren't you suggesting he's reported to the nSPCC or social services?

Original poster
Piaffle · 20/10/2013 12:07

It's not two night a week, it's 3 or 4 nights a week. We do 50/50.

It might not 'technically' be neglect, but something doesn't have to be bad enough to report to the NSPCC for it to be bad enough to post wondering how the situation can be improved.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 20/10/2013 12:12

It's not an hour later either is it, it's 3 hours later than most non-neglected dc get put to bed on a school night at 5 years old!!! The child is affected - if it weren't an issue then the op wouldn't be asking for advice!

BasilBabyEater · 20/10/2013 12:17

Oh FGS so it's technically not neglect as defined by SS.

I think we're allowed to use it in its colloquial sense?

I also think the OP has every right to aim for a standard of parenting higher than just "not technically neglect as defined by state agencies". Call her a princess. Hmm

RandomMess · 20/10/2013 12:18

Let's face if if he was keeping her up on a Fri & Sat night only then the op wouldn't have an issue because it wouldn't be impacting on her schooling and developing social skills!

Original poster
Piaffle · 20/10/2013 14:15

I do take on board what people have said about 'his time, his rules' though.

When he is in a good mood then he will agree with me, that's what makes it so hard.

I just think she would benefit from more routine, since I can't influence her routine every night I am hoping that changing her routine in the mornings will have a knock on effect.

OP posts:
aurynne · 25/10/2013 02:25

It is as much neglect as feeding your child fast food or taking her to an evening concert. Perhaps not the best practice to bring up a child, but not by far abusive, and completely a parent's choice.

BigBoPeep · 25/10/2013 04:32

holds hand up shit, neglectful parent here. We have no set bedtime. I don't, so I don't see why any other human being would if they don't want it, and if they did, they'd be doing it. I manage to work OK on it. Sometimes I'm just not as tired as others?

Personally, having had 2 genuinely shit dads (bio and step obvs) and been passed about amongst uncaring people during my childhood, I think it's actually really nice that he wants to chat and interact with her when he has her. This has been described as babysitting rather than parenting, but I'm shocked that wanting to spend time with a child is seen as merely 'babysitting' rather than going through the motions of a routine that sees them packed off to bed asap of an evening? Hmm I'd be extreeeeemely careful about trying to influence this in any way, as it could come back to bite arse if the child starts to notice wedges being driven between her and the person who likes to spend time and interact with her.

ImperialFucker · 25/10/2013 11:48

It IS abusive to not allow a child to sleep. That child won't achieve her potential, will find it harder to keep friends and will be more likely to be run down and ill.

OP, I think you should speak to the teacher and explain exactly what's going on. I found my children's teachers would say something at parents' evening - after all, they want a healthy, happy and hard working child in their class.

ImperialFucker · 25/10/2013 11:50

BigBoPeep - presumably you go to bed when you're tired, because you know you're tired.

A small child often doesn't realise they're tired. There's always that cry that they don't want to go to bed, that they're not tired, then within a few minutes they're asleep.

Be the adult, ffs. Take care of your children's health and wellbeing. Do what you want to yourself, but give them every opportunity of being happy and healthy and give them a reasonable bedtime.

BasilFucker · 25/10/2013 17:13

Sorry but I agree that it's really self-indulgent and self-centred to decide that your desire for nice time with your DC, takes priority over their need for sleep.

I'm not against spending nice, quality time with children Grin, in fact, don't we all prefer to spend that sort of time with them than any other? But surely we should be aiming to do that without compromising our DC's welfare? Every now and then as a one off, the odd late night won't kill 'em, but as a regular habit, it's not fair on them. Part of parenting is to put your child's needs above your own and it seems to me that this is one of those cases.

GatoradeMeBitch · 26/10/2013 00:44

I do think it's a good idea to not allow her to sleep in on weekends. My teenage DS was starting to go to bed after midnight regularly and just wasn't tired before then, so I broke the pattern by making him get up at 7:30am every day. He very soon needed to start going to bed earlier. It's a good technique for re-setting reasonable bedtimes.

If she has two lie-ins, then goes to her Dad's all wide awake and energetic, of course she's ready to stay up as long as he'll allow. It's not neglectful to let him see what lack of sleep does to her, it's necessary!

mammadiggingdeep · 26/10/2013 07:45

Have you asked the teacher if she/he thinks your dd is tired at school?

I'm a teacher and I can easily guess which children get to bed late.

If you have a chat with the teacher and they say they think its an issue you can ask THEM to raise it at parents evening.

BarbarianMum · 26/10/2013 10:37

If the OP puts her dd to bed at 7 and gets her up at 7 at the weekend then she is ensuring she gets 12 hours of rest. This is in no way sleep deprivation, is it?

If she lets her dd lie in, then unwittingly, she is helping her dd's sleep cycle to drift into later getting up/later bed times - which is the problem (greatly contributed to by her dad) at the end of the week.

I have years of experience in managing my insomnia and the thing that really helps is getting up at the same time each day worse luck. If I lie in to catch up on sleep, then I have difficulty getting to sleep the next night and I can easily end up in a situation where my body wants to go to bed at 4am and get up at lunch time.

Honestly OP, I think the getting up at weekends thing will help your dd in the long run. Her dad may actually been telling the truth when he says she's not tired at bedtime on a Monday if she's been sleeping in (and yes I do see he caused the prob in the first place).

tinkertitonk · 26/10/2013 17:14

His house, his rules. What did you think shared custody meant?

Oh, and trying to manipulate the teacher into taking sides is distasteful. If you don't like that word, there are worse.

Mellowandfruitful · 26/10/2013 18:00

Tinkertonk - if his rules are harmful, it's not unreasonable for the OP to worry. Your response seems unnecessarily harsh to me.