Ex DH not getting 5 yr old DD to sleep until 10 on school nights

[Piaffle]

Really don't know what to do about this. DD is 5. We share custody 50/50 and because of his job he has her on 3 school nights.

He is aware of all the research that says how much lack of sleep damages children. He thinks education is important but still does this.

When is is in a good mood he will agree she should be in bed for 8, so as to be asleep for 8.30. He never actually does this though and when he is in a bad mood he will claim that he never agreed that in the first place.

He is a good dad in most other ways and I think don't think a court would stop her living with him just because of this. I also think a custody battle would be more damaging for DD than lack of sleep .

It is parents' evening soon but I think it would be wrong to try and get the teacher onside with this as she would be getting involved in an argument between divorcing parents. He would be very good at making me look bad for doing that. He is very good at looking reasonable to the outside world.

Also it might be difficult as DD doesn't necessarily act 'tired' but it comes out in moodiness, whinyness etc.

I could cry. The days when I can't wake her up are so horrible, and I'm sure it's affecting her at school. He says any behavioural problems at school are because I have broken up the family.

I feel like saying I will not take her in on days when she is too tired, but again, I think that will make me look like the unreasonable one.

Is there anything you can suggest, I don't know what to do!

[SleepyFish]

Tricky situation, shame the parents night is so close really. Teacher less likely to feel uncomfortable with a bit of time lapsed. Maybe wait and see what she says at parents night and if she mentions anything that you think could be down to tiredness you can always ask loudly if she thinks it could be down to lack of sleep.
Sounds difficult though if he's already aware of the negative effects and ignores them.
Ironically as you say he thinks he's being a 'good' parent letting her stay up late, making himself popular when actually he is the opposite.

[Twinklestein]

I can't believe the laid back responses here. Sleep is fundamental to health, wellbeing, educational & social development. Lack of sleep can cause stress, headaches, weaken the immune system etc.

Research published only this week that children with irregular bedtimes are more likely to develop behavioural problems:

"Children with irregular bedtimes are more likely to have behavioral difficulties. finds a study in Pediatrics, because it can disrupt natural body rhythms and cause sleep deprivation, undermining brain maturation and the ability to regulate certain conduct...

Not having fixed bedtimes, accompanied by a constant sense of flux, induces a state of body and mind akin to jet lag and this matters for healthy development and daily functioning. We know that early child development has profound influences on health and wellbeing across the life course. It follows that disruptions to sleep, especially if they occur at key times in development, could have important lifelong impacts on health" Link

She cannot function properly at school if she has not had enough sleep. 10 o'clock is way too late for a 5 year old.

Whatever a court would make of it, I would question whether he has the maturity & responsibility for joint custody. I don't think he does.

[Piaffle]

Twinkle I know. I feel like screaming at him, I really do.

But a custody battle (and it would be a battle) would be worse.

[RandomMess]

How long have you been apart? I wonder if eventually the novelty of letting her stay up late etc will wear off?

Can you limit the amount of conversation you have with him so he doesn't get the kick out of telling you he's let her stay up/do what she wants/be the favourite parent?

[Piaffle]

Nearly a year now. He has always been like this re bedtime though, even when we were together. If he was responsible for putting her to bed she'd still be singing and playing two hours later.

If he were capable of changing his behaviour when he said he would we might still be together.

[purpleroses]

I wouldn't rule out trying to teach her that she needs to get enough sleep. You'd need to make sure you put no pressure on her, but she must know she doesn't like getting up in the mornings if she's tired, so she's probably old enough to start to learn that that means she needs to get to bed earlier.

Could you talk to your ex when he's in a good mood about how difficult it can be (for both of you) to get her to sleep sometimes and share some things that you've found have worked. Eg if she needs to be in bed at 8, so probably needs dinner by 6, bath/getting ready for bed by 7, etc - you can't just bounce around with a child playing with them until 8pm and then start thinking about how to wind them down before bed.

Sounds like your ex has been used to being the fun parent when you were together and you were the sensible one. Now you each need to be everything at once because you're doing it solo, especially if you're each having her 50%.

Do you have anyone else who could talk to him, who you know well enough to share your concerns with? Eg his mum or sister?

[Twinklestein]

I don't know what can be achieved through mediation if he agrees with you & then doesn't do it. But I suppose you could address this very fact.

I would pull together information on how lack of sleep affects health, put it in a file & give it to him.

And I would make an appointment to see your daughter's teacher: the school needs to know what's going on at home. It will affect her ability to concentrate, interact, learn..

[Piaffle]

I'm thinking again about speaking to the teacher, but it really does need to be done in such a way that I'm not 'telling tales' on him, or trying to get her on my side ganging up against him.

[Twinklestein]

The primary focus is your daughter's wellbeing & development, her teachers need to know. If he wants to interpret that as 'telling tales' then that's just more immaturity on his part.

The teacher is not going to take sides anyway.

[flippinada]

I really do feel for you here, because he's being an enormous dick and yet (unfortunately) it's not something people take very seriously. Sleep is very important for a child's development.

I'm wondering, does he have her for at least one school night? If does then surely the late night will be surely be impacting on him in that she will be tired, not wanting to get up,crabby etc.

One thing that does strike me, you seem to be awfully worried about upsetting your ex and I wonder if this has been a pattern, are you afraid of his reaction if you confront him?

[flippinada]

Sorry, I see you mentioned in your OP that he has her on school nights because of his job. Does he get her up and off to school on those days?

I may be way off beam here - and if so please feel free to tell to mind my own - but reading between the lines it sounds like there may be some EA/bullying going on.

[RandomMess]

Could you engineer him having her for 3 in a row school nights so he can endure getting her up etc?

[KeepCoolCalmAndCollected]

Definitely inform the teacher - she/he needs to know about this for obvious reasons - ie. it will explain her tiredness and lack of concentration etc.

Very importantly ask him/her to broach the subject with BOTH of you at the parent's evening. (Clearly your ex mustn't know about your previous meeting or he will think he's being ganged up against).

Sadly you have no choice but to fight fire with fire, so be clear and go for it. Good Luck.

[Piaffle]

I really can't change the nights he has her. He says that he doesn't have a problem getting her up, but I think that's because she's well rested from the weekend when obviously I let her sleep as long as she needs to. By the time it's getting towards the end of the week, Thursday and Friday is when there is a problem, and I'm the one taking her in then.

She's up late Sunday, Monday and Tuesday.

Flippinada yes, I would describe him as EA, but pretty mildly so. Not calling names or the really overt stuff, but just to the level where it drives you mad but it's difficult to call him on it.

[Piaffle]

It's only just occurred to me as I've written this that this is more a problem for me than him because I always have her at the end of the week, when lack of sleep has accumulated.

Maybe I should use that tack, he may not have thought of that and think I am nagging for no good reason.

[Piaffle]

Not mild, sorry. Subtle is a better word.

[purpleroses]

Do you have her Friday and Saturday nights? If you do, it might be worth trying to make sure you do put her to bed early then too, and get her up not too later either. Otherwise, they drift into a later routine over the weekend, so it's very easy to stay up too late on a Sunday. If she's been up since 7am she might not be so easy to keep up late on a Sunday.

But I think you're absolutely right about it being the end of the week thing. School itself is really tiring at that age, so you could try point all this out to your ex, not just implying that he's the bad parent, but that the way you've split the week means you get DD when she's more tired if she hasn't had enough sleep earlier.

[prettywhiteguitar]

That is ridiculous 9-10pm is way too late. If I were you though I would not be discussing things so much together giving him the opportunity to tell you stuff that will wind you up. I certainly wouldn't be going to parent evening together.

Go separately and mention to the teacher that after dd has been to her dads she's tired because she's been up late. Depending on the the teacher they may well mention just how important sleep is to your exh in the meeting or at another time when he drops her off, but in a more diplomatic way than we could... Just a thought

There's no reason that you have to go together and I certainly wouldn't be going with someone with tendencies of EA

[prettywhiteguitar]

To be honest he sounds like he doesn't give two hoots what you think, I would just find other ways to manage his behaviour than actually discussing it with him

[Piaffle]

purpleroses that's an interesting point, I tend to let her catch up on sleep at weekends, but maybe if she got up at 7 every day then he might not be able to keep her up and so would naturally get her into more of a routine. He would also have to get her into school tired, and that would give him a taste of consequences. It would mean a pretty bad few weeks for DD though, but I genuinely think it might be worth a try.

pretty I think you're right. I think it probably is useless talking to him. We have had this conversation many times before, hence me posting on here in a 'what should I doooooooooooo?!' sort of a way.

[flippinada]

Yeah, I thought that might be the case as mine was like that and still has his moments. It's bizarre because they almost seem to follow a script! Anyway, they are awful to deal with so you have my utmost sympathy.

Ignore the comments about behaviour problems being down to splitting up the home. That's just a dig designed to make you feel bad. Try using something along these "Well, I'm sorry you feel that way but I know you will agree we need to do the best for DD".

I expect he's letting her stay up late because there's not much you can do about it, and you have to deal with the fallout. Don't, whatever you do, keep her off school as that would give him 'ammo'.

Practically speaking, I would put her to bed early on Wednesday night ( I realise you may already be doing this so apologies if 'preaching to converted' :)).

I would maybe write a letter to the teacher alerting her to your concerns and asking if there's anything s/he wants to to discuss. Send this in on a Thursday so he can't pick it up. Ask if your DC is showing signs of tiredness and emphasise you are concerned about her (which I know you are) and can you have a chat.

I would say if it is discussed at the parents evening and he does feel ambushed, that's just tough shit really. Let him get on with it. My ex would huff and puff and bluster but as (ultimately) he wanted to do the right thing by our DS he would suck it up - any unpleasantness directed at me just bounces off these days.

If the thought of doing all that fills you with dread then maybe you need a bit more support (I certainly did) - is there anyone you can turn to for that?

[Piaffle]

pretty The school had specified no separate parents' evenings. (I am sure in cases of DV they would make an exception, but this is not that).

[flippinada]

I missed all that while was typing. Good suggestions from prettywhiteguitar as well - engage with him as little as possible, and only communicate when necessary.

[Piaffle]

Flippinada thanks for that. Support would be lovely, but I'm not sure where from. Friends tend to either think he's great, or if they 'get it' say he's awful, but not necessarily help me deal with him any better.

Marriage guidance counselling was great in that the councillor was good at getting him to acknowledge his behaviour, but even then he couldn't seem to change.

I don't think me talking to him will help. If the teacher says anything to him he will know I have spoken to her and that will definitely make things worse.

I think getting DD up early at weekends is potentially a really good solution. He does love her and I think if he saw her how she is on a Thursday or Friday morning, that would be the one thing that would get him to change.