Asked 'd'p to marry me. He said no.

[MartinPlattRGN]

Been together 7 years. 2 kids. No reason. Feel like shit.

My DP has never wanted to get married, i did and still would but its not a deal breaker, we have been together 22 years and its been brilliant (not perfect but brilliant). He never wanted to be married because he liked things the way they were and worried it would change things. I'm happy - if you are happy together don't throw this away over what is essentially a piece of paper unless you are religeous

So you told him in writing after you had your first child that you wanted to get married. Now after a second child you ask him and he says no. What do you want? He's being pretty clear about what he he wants. You need to choose between him and marriage because you're not going to get both

It's not just a piece of paper. It's someone saying my wishes override yours even though I have no concrete reason and it's really important to you.

My employment contract is a "piece of paper".

I wouldn't go to work if I didn't have it.

I feel for you OP.

If he has strong opinions against marriage he should tell you.

If he simply isn't fussed and loves you, then why not do it?

If he wants to be married one day and loves you then why not jump at the chance?

I think he isn't being fair and I would also feel rejected in this situation. He knows how much you want to get married and has not even tried to let you down gently or explain.

If one person really sees it as 'just a piece of paper' and it's really important to the other person then what's the big deal about getting it?

I was jumped into marriage by my ex. It was okay in the end until it wasn't. But at no point did my reluctance to get married mean I didn't love him. Some of us don't share the marriage desire but it doesn't mean we aren't capable of love and devotion. Don't write off a strong relationship and a family because he said no. He turned down your proposal. He didn't reject you.

The op does need to have a serious discussion with her dp. We don't know if he's made his position clear before and what she's essentially done is ask him a question he's already effectively answered. She admits she'd had wine and maybe he had to. Maybe neither one of them has confronted what should be a considered decision together. I would be rather surprised if it hadn't been discussed before considering a longterm committed relationship and two dc have already happened. If they truly haven't covered it then it's time to confront it but not one of us can know exactly what's happening here. The op has to find out if he doesn't want to get married or he doesn't want to marry her.

Getting married isn't the ultimate show of love at all. I show my dh every day that I love him by living the life we created together, raising our children together and supporting each other through the ups and downs. Anybody can get married. It doesn't actually show anything other than a willingness to turn up on that day. What that marriage means to the individual couple is borne out by what happens every day in their relationship.

"The op has to find out if he doesn't want to get married or he doesn't want to marry her."

The problem is that men (and it nearly always is men, women who don't fancy marriage seem to be way more upfront) who are with a woman they don't love enough to marry will ALWAYS pretend that they just don't want to get married at all.

They never say "oh, I'd like to get married one day. Just not to you."

They just give it loads about how they don't want the fuss and it's just a bit of paper and it means nothing to publicly commit to your partner.

It's pretty hard to tell the difference between a male conscientious objector and an uncommitted man.

One clue is that a man who genuinely doesn't believe in marriage is normally pretty open about that fact from the start.

DP and I decided to have a child and, if we got pregnant, get married. But then I didn't want to be a pregnant bride so we put it off. But then we had three kids in five years so we put it off. But then I really, really wanted to get married but he didn't see the point and I was a bit resentful but our relationship was great so it was nowhere near a deal breaker.
On my 40th birthday, he gathered all the kids round grinning and presented me with a ring box. When I opened it, it was a gold band, with a diamond in it, that he had had handmade for me. I felt absolutely sick and horrified, I just can't describe it. I was thinking how much moithering it would be to get married. I asked him if it was an engagement ring and he said it was if I wanted it to be. I thanked him but declined and the relief I felt was massive.
Now the point of all this rambling is that both me and DH's attitudes to marriage have changed massively over the last 22 years. But our commitment to each other has not. The two things are in no way related.

I don't know about public commitment. I think living with someone and caring for someone and having children with them is a sign of commitment. Some people dislike the formulaic nature of marriage. The prescribed words, the roles that tradition have solidified Others find a sort of freedom in the structure. I don't think it automatically means he doesn't love you and isn't committed.

I would be gutted too if I was in your shoes op-I am so sorry that your dp has treated you so shabbily.

My dh dragged his heels over getting married-we used to have huge arguments over getting engaged as all our friends were getting wed and he still refused to commit.

We eventually got engaged after 5 years after he got an ultimatumno romantic proposal! but then he dragged his heels again. 3 years after this we were on the verge of splitting up-instigated by me-and he shit himself and booked the wedding that day!

I would tell your dp that you want to sit down and discuss this properly. He is entitled not to want to get wed but he owes you an explanation at least.

Do you two talk OP? As it sounds like you don't. Although correct me if I'm wrong.

Have you discussed marriage at all? You said you wrote it down, and? I can't believe you could be together for so long and not know each others' views on marriage.

The thing is, that very often these men who say 'I don't believe in marriage, it is just a bit of paper, blah blah blah' are uncommitted to the relationship in other ways - like the OP's DP who is refusing to show her the respect of actually discussing the matter rather than flouncing off like a prick.

And many of them, if the relationship breaks down, get married to other people quickly enough to demonstrate that it was marriage they didn't want, it was marriage to that particular partner.

OP I think he has treated you horribly, and you deserve much, much better. If he won't even discuss it with you then yes I would think about leaving the relationship. Not because he won't marry you, but because he clearly doesn't care about your feelings and opinions.

But she loves him and has children with him. If she were a single woman and wanted to get married and the boyfriend didn't, I'd say yes walk away. But I think there are children here and therefore other considerations rather than how the adults (both of them) feel. We haven't established that he is always disrespectful, just that he doesn't want to get married and was rude and flouncy on this occasion.

Sometimes it's hard to articulate what you don't like about marriage. It's still such a given despite its pretty poor success rate that it's hard to swim against the tide. So, people say "piece of paper" and "silly expense" but sometimes it's something else. But not necessarily lack of love and respect.

I think TBH it generally is true that the reluctant-to-marry man is keeping his options open. This has a lot to do with the whole social setup and history of marriage - which is actually designed for men's benefit, and not women's; it's just propaganda that women want and need it more. But the mythology of marriage (again, set up for men's benefit, not women's) works in such a way that a man can sit contentedly in his OK relationship, declining to propose or marry the woman, yet aware that she will run around in circles trying to please him and 'win the prize' of either a proposal or an actual marriage ceremony - but that if a better (richer, prettier, more subservient) woman appears, the man still has the option of marrying her instead.

He could leave her for someone else if he was married. Isn't it something like a third of marriages end in divorce? So, it's not a guarantee of fidelity and forever or anything.

It is much harder to walk away from a marriage than from a live in relationship. Marriage has legal obligations that non married relationships don't.

Only you can decide how important marriage is to you op. It was very important to me as I come from divorced parents.

I wouldn't want to live with someone who refused to even discuss marriage.

I agree with solid Also interestingly I have never heard a man say marriage is a deal breaker for them. Women definitely seem more keen.

It is difficult to say what it is that I don't want about marriage. It has nothing to do with commitment or love. I don't see anything superior in my married friends relationships. And even my closest friends life was trashed by her ex dh because yes financially she was ok and he owed her certain things but he moved heaven and earth to make it as difficult as possible. It was awful to watch.

I am surprised it took as long as it did for someone to say it is just a piece of paper. Just a piece of paper is something you write your shipping list on or leave a note for your kids.

It isn't just a piece of paper. I am sure I really don't have to point out what it is but if I do then God help you.

I am aware you can do other things to protect yourself but it still doesn't make marriage just a piece of paper.

It really pisses me off what people say it and it is so rude as it sounds very dismissive and sneery about marriage and those that chose to embark on it.

Why do you want to marry him OP?

I never understand some of the answers on these threads. To call marriage just a piece of paper is very disingenuous really. As for having children with someone being 'enough of a commitment' this obviously isn't true - men leave children all the time sadly. In my experience when someone refuses to marry their long-term partner but lives with them and has children with them, they very nearly always break up with them eventually and marry someone else very quickly. I've seen it happen to umpteen women, leaving them in a dreadfully vulnerable position with regard to finances etc.

If you love someone and marriage doesn't mean that much to you (ie it's 'just a piece of paper) but it means a lot to them then why would you not go ahead with it just to make them happy? I know I would have if I had felt like that because I loved my DH more than anything.

So sorry you feel this way my dp has asked me to marry him and i said no not because i dont love him i really really love him i just dont want to get married ever he understands me and it doesnt bother him mabey your dp just doesnt want to get married i dont think he loves you any less

Actually, I think that when it's the woman refusing to marry, her reasons are likely to be better ones: for instance (up until 1991) getting married means losing the right to refuse sex...