AIBU to feel gutted and feel that dh has totally betrayed my trust here?

[Lisavarna]

By way of back story my dh and i have just had an awful 6 months of fighting. Basically i feel he has behaved really selfishly by taking himself off on 4 trips, two for golf, (5 days in spain and 3 days in donegal) and two trips for concerts, one of them in london, away for 3 days on that one and two days on the other. These trips were all taken between end april and start of august, so around a 11week period.

We have 5 kids and i am a SAHM. These trips put a lot of pressure on me and when i said this was a bit much to be going away he reacted badly, defensively.

Later, much later, and after weeks of not getting on, and him saying some nasty stuff to me he admitted that he HAD been selfish, as life is too busy around may june time with all the kids sports and activities for him to be away all those times and he assured me that it was a once off, and from now on he would plan his trips to fit in around the family and space them out better. The golf trip at the end of april is an annual thing and i dont mind about that as i think it is good for him to have a trip away with his golfing mates, he always comes back really rested. But the other trip, (organised by an old school acquaintance) taken two weeks after spain was taking the piss i felt, and he agreed that it was too much.

This was about a month ago. I have since found out, (heard from the wife of one of the other blokes) that he as already committed to going away on another of these trips organised by the school acquaintance, basically the same trip that was in donegal in may except this time its to be in kerry, at the other end of the country to us, and will be for 3 days.

This is all despite the fact that he is already going away to spain in april, and his brother is getting married in june so i expect there will be a stag do in april or may.

And yet he has committed to this trip as well, despite his promises. And hasnt even bothered to discuss it with me as he knows how i would feel. I feel devastated. We had an awful time this summer and we are meant to be getting our marriage back on track again and yet he is still busy planning his jollies away, more than 8 months in advance.

I remember your other thread. You've tried counselling, you've tried talking to him.

I think your only option now is an ultimatum, but you need to mean it, and I don't think you're quite there yet.

You obviously get some kind of payoff from being in this relationship.

You need to be honest with yourself about what that is, whether its emotional, financial, etc, and decide whether that really is enough for you.

You either put up or shut up.

I know my kids well and they are happy, healthy and secure. I am the product of divorced parents and know only too well how it affects children, especially those on the cusp of adolescence as my older two are.

I am giving my dh an ultimatum. I am telling him that if he chooses this way of life, then we live separate lives under the one roof. To be honest, i will be a lot happier when i tell him this as i can finally stop pretending, hoping, wishing thiings were different and instead get on with my own life, enjoy the friends and interests that i have, and the lovely family that i have, no longer constantly under pressure to try and make dh see things my way. He can do what he wants and equally, i can live my own life.

This will be hugely embarrassing for him, it really will impact him. If for no other reason than me refusing to be on his arm at certain events will really bring it home to him and embarrass him. We live in a small town. People notice things like that. There are certain events i have to accompany him to, and if i dont, he really will not like it. Tough. That will be what he has chosen through his own actions and selfishness.

That is my ultimatum and i am quite prepared to go through with it, in fact, am quite looking forward to doing so, it will be such a relief to finally stop pretending and just get on with things myself.

Well done Lisavarna, you sound very strong in your own mind about this. You do have some power.

It does sound like a lonely life to tread, for all of you, so I don't know if I'd embrace it as a life long solution, but at least you have stopped trying to change his feelings and instead are changing your own actions.

I'm assuming you are from the ROI where attitudes towards divorce are not as accepting as in the UK, is that correct?

Do you want to know what I would do...

I would find out when the stag do was and book to go away

that will teach him to be a selfish wanker

ok it may be tit for tat and spiteful - but the saying goes actions speak far louder than words and he doesn't listen to a word you say so actions may assist his fucking poor hearing

I think your ultimatum sounds powerful, personally. And you sound very tough-minded about following through with it as well.

I so hope he comes to his senses and stops behaving like an entitled idiot. You and the kids deserve no less.

I think under the circumsntances you are doing the right thing here. He is behaving like a single man and living in the family home. So let him be a single man. I think this will be a wake up call and hopefully he may change for the better. You can't change somebody else's behaviour but you can certainly change your own.

Lisavarna

Are you really doing the right thing here; I would agree separation but you and he conducting separate lives under the same roof whilst apart is something I would urge you to consider the full implications of. This has not been thought through enough.

Separate lives under the same roof is awful actually for the children to witness as well. They will see this and pick up on it leading to misery. I can get why you want to do this because you are also a child of divorced parents but this may be a retrograde step for all concerned.

I was also wondering if you are resident in the R of I.

Sorry, I think what you're proposing is a terrible option. It also presumes you want to give up on sex for the rest of your life.

I think you'll end up feeling bitter, frustrated and vengeful and he will spend even more time out of the home. Neanderthals like this one will probably use it as a justification to start messing around with other women and because I think he views the money he brings in as being for 'services rendered' I've got no doubt he'll start punishing you by giving you enough for the children but less for your own personal expenditure.

For your children (who are currently learning that men can behave how they want if they earn enough money) their example of a marriage will get even worse when they see their parents living single unhappy lives because neither had the guts to end it.

You didn't even have to tell us that you have a strong aversion to divorce.

That was obvious by the fact that you've been putting up with the behaviour for so long.

He knows that only too well, hence he carries on regardless knowing you just don't have the courage to do anything about it.

And that's where at least some of his disrespect for you comes from.

in fact, am quite looking forward to doing so, it will be such a relief to finally stop pretending and just get on with things myself.

I think you're trying too hard to convince yourself, and us, that you'll be happy with this.

You will cause your children untold damage, living this way.

I guess in some ways tackling the issue like this depends on how much either of you want to save this marriage.

I don't blame you for withdrawing from him. At all.

I can see (from the outside) what will happen, though, and in some ways he has brought it on himself. You will drift further and further apart, what intimacy you do have will be destroyed slowly and when the kids leave home what will you have ?

A man you don't even like, and the best years of your life ...gone.

I wonder if he really understands this, or he is simply focussed on his drinking lifestyle

I can see where Attila is coming from, dragging it out and displaying a cold and distant marital relationship is not good for children of an impressionable age, when unless he wakes up and wakes up good the outcome will be the same anyway.

I just checked wikipedia ( gawd I really need to focus more on my own life) and in ROI divorce cannot be granted until couples have been separate for 4 out of the preceeding 5 years, it says that on occasions this can be under the same roof.

Therefore the reality is that nothing is going to happen quickly anyway. Is it not better that the OP tries something, anything other than the current situation of being terribly hurt every time the H lets her down.

I'm from Northern Ireland and from some of my ROI friends I understand that this living separate lives together is far from uncommon due to the stigma around divorce. My info is however, far from recent, so I don't know how far attitudes have moved forward, if at all.

The H needs a wake up call and if the OP isn't ready to divorce at this point in time, due to consequences that are much greater than they would be in the UK, then this would seem to be the only solution other than putting up and shutting up.

", we have the money and he would give it,"

.

Seriously?

I understand you don't want to be away from your children, I'm similar and love family life but I think your H has lost respect for you as an individual.He certainly needs a wakeup call as he seems to judge his financial contribution as an 'opt into family life' card.

I think your ultimatum is a good one.

And the reason it's such a good one, is because the situation you are suggesting will not please him at all.

If there is any chance of getting him to stop taking you for granted as his pleasant little wifey who runs the home and escorts him on social occasions where he needs a female on his arm, it is to stop being that wifey and start suiting yourself.

Long term I don't think your proposal will work out (although that kind of thing does go on in Ireland) but in the short term it might give him enough of a kick in the arse to realise that he needs to stop being a selfish dick.

It might. It might not.

Certainly, things are not working they way they are right now

My concern about a man like this is that no, he won't like this at all, so he'll just go about seeking a replacement trophy woman, while squirrelling away a shedload of money if it ever comes to divorce, either at his behest when the OP's outlived her usefulness or the OP's, when she can't ignore his flagrant philandering any more.

The mind boggles why any woman would sign up to years without sex, unless the OP decides she'll start playing away too.

Meanwhile, the kids are in the middle of it all.

If the cultural pressure against divorce is so strong I think he'd be unlikely to seek another trophy woman. Especially as she'd be the scarlet trophy woman for at least a few years, according to the info below.

I do think there's a risk on MN of assuming all cultures operate like our own and advice holds good across national borders. It doesn't, always, and this may be as huge a threat to his life and reputation as kicking him out would be over here. The OP is in a better position to know that than we are, really.

I also think insisting the kids will be better off with a clean split than a separate lives arrangement is blind, if the stigma against divorce is that strong. Social shame and humiliation is not great for kids at all. In this country, I'd absolutely agree, but the OP sounds like she isn't coming at this from the same starting point.

ROI really isn't that backward you know!

And divorce really isn't that uncommon, because not everyone's religious or if they are, not everyone's a catholic.

I think there's a tendency for children of divorced parents (like the OP) to assume their own divorce will be as terrible for the children as their parents' parting was for them. But time and attitudes change, the individuals are different in every case and what tends to make a big difference to divorce generally is whether there's enough money to go around.

Having Irish heritage myself, I've been amazed at the cultural changes there within my lifetime. There's still a lot to be done as regards the religious stranglehold and how women especially suffer because of it, but it bears no resemblance to what it once was.

Ok need to clarify a few things. I live in a very rural part of Northern Ireland, so actually in UK. However, i grew up in Dublin, and i can honestly say that the area i live in now is a hell of a lot more conservative, religious and socially judgemental than Dublin city is nowadays.

Any divorce here in this small town would be hugely difficult on the children, it would be talked about for ever, they would be subjected to a lot of scrutiny, judgement, and just plain ole nosiness really.

For myself, if it were just me, i really couldnt give a shit about what people think of me round here. I am not a religious person, in fact view myself as an athiest now, and have progressive views on marriage and divorce etc that would not at all tie in with the norm of thinking around here. So my aversion to divorce is based on the social effect it would have on my kids as well as the emotional difficulties it would visit on them.

I do realise that living with parents who are not really together, in the real sense, is not great either. But i look around me, and i know many couples with kids who live like that, and the stability that provides their kids is better than the disruption and social upheaval i have seen caused as a result of divorce around here.

If i lived in Dublin or any other large urban area, perhaps i would act differently. But taking all things in to account, this is a better solution to my mind, not perfect, or ideal, but a lesser of two evils.

my dh is from this town, and is extremely aware of his image and standing in the town. By taking my own life into control, doing what i want, choosing not to do things with him that i dont want to do, i feel i am taking back some power. It will embarrass him massively, and social embarrassment may work to change his behavior in a way that pleas from me never have done so far. For eg, even me not going on this trip to Barcelona and being upfront with my reasons for not doing so, to this other couple, will hit him hard.

I, on the other hand, get to suit myself.

As for sex, to be quite honest, i never even think about it any more and could happily live without it for the rest of my life. I have enough in my life with my kids, my interests, my home and my extended family. Sex is something i dont miss, and i dont see that changing.

That might sound sad to a lot of you out there, but my life is so rich in many other ways, my dh and our problems is only a part of that and i am now taking steps to ensure that i put my own contentment and health and happiness first.

I really feel for you - how he's acting towards you is contemptuous.

I know little of ROI culture but accept that attitudes to divorce and separation are very different to the UK. The ultimatum you're proposing is probably worth a try if keeping a certain outward veneer of respectability is so important to him - it might just be the shock he needs when repeated talking and counselling hasn't worked so far.

However - although I understand why you feel driven to this point, like others I fear he may well shrug, go "okay fine then" and simply carry on as he's been doing all this time, i.e. doing exactly what HE wants when HE wants with no thought to you or the kids. Okay he might be a good father WHEN he chooses to be, but he seems to have lost sight of the fact that once you become a parent it's a 24/7 responsibility and not something you pick up and put down at will without the consultation and agreement of your partner. I can well imagine that the social implications of you being missing from his arm on certain occasions could well be very embarrassing for him and I really hope that thought is the kick up the backside he needs, but what if it isn't OP ?

What if he decides that social embarrassment is preferable to buckling down to joint parenthood and being respectful to his wife as an equal ? Okay ..... I get then that at least you'd feel somewhat less "used" if you weren't playing ball with him any longer and keeping up a pretence which must be dreadfully hard emotionally. Practically though the vast majority of childcare and organisation would still fall upon you and you'd still feel frazzled - perhaps more importantly, although the children wouldn't have to deal with the "stigma" of divorce, they would still have to deal with the emotional repercussions of a father who flits in and out of their lives when it suits him and him only. I'm playing devil's advocate here because I don't know how children of divorced parents in the ROI may or may not be ostracised but am wondering how any potential problems arising from the attitude of others about divorce would be less or more harmful than coming to the conclusion as they get older (if they haven't already) that it's okay for dads to do what they want, that mums get all the drudgery and donkey work, and that (most importantly) they're not as important as frequent lads' trips etc.

I do wish you well OP and am pleased to read you have a lovely family and friends as I'm sure all this would be much harder if you didn't have that behind you. I'm just worried that what you're proposing may make you feel better in the short term only ( - and not without justification, I can see why you'd propose this - ) and even if you withdraw all favours (fair enough!) you'd still be left in a very unfair position by his selfishness.

X-posted.

You seem pretty sure about why you want to do this - I can't argue, it's not my life. I just hope you can find some way through which makes you feel happier than you do now and that the kids aren't unduly affected. What would happen about family holidays for example if you're living separate lives ?

Leavenheath I don't think "different" means "backwards". I also think that when posters tell us about their own cultural setting we should listen to them. The OP knows better than anyone else what cultural setting she's dealing with.

What if he starts paying less to you, as after all, you are now separating....can you afford five kids and a job?

What if he starts taking someone else around on his arm?

I don't like this idea. I think it is quicksand and therefore not safe to build your future on. Sorry x

Lisavarna, if you split up, you don't have to stay in this town! Why would you do that? Move to where your friends and family are, where you are from. Let your kids make new friends.

Right now, he doesn't seem to mind the whole town knowing he travels way on hols a lot. He is never there for you and he drinks. If its that small a town people know this, ESP if he has lived there his whole life.

So, already people know the score. What you are suggesting isnt much different tbh. I think you will be very miserable keeping up a facade for the dc- and they will know what he is like, esp as they get older, talk to their friends etc, and he will of course get to have hs cake, eat it and make trifle out of it.

OP, what do you want to happen in the future with your marriage, in an ideal world and with a magic wand? If anything were possible? Have you identified that?