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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Asked H to leave - in total crisis

129 replies

3HotCrossBuns · 26/07/2013 13:37

Some of you might recall I had a thread recently about contacting the OW which then uncovered some other feelings I was having about whether I could try to reconcile with my H. Anyway fast forward a couple of weeks and it's as if the penny has dropped for him and he is taking more responsibilty and accountability for his choices, saying that he does love me and wants to help me heal, has given me space when I needed it, cuddles when I needed it, set up a tracker on his phone, has given me total transparency on his phone since day 1 etc etc.
Thing is, I feel so hurt and betrayed by his recent PA/EA and his previous EA that I don't think I can get past it. As part of both of those affairs he talked about leaving me, 'escaping his life' etc. I don't think he is seeing the OW (finished with her over the phone on day 1 with me in the room). But I am so devasted by what he has done already that I can't value him now - I don't like him much. Or respect him.
This morning whilst he was out (having an STI check!) I went back through the emails on the pc and found the emails from the EA. I was so upset that, when he got back, I told him we were done and to leave immediately. After a heated discussion he has gone with a change of clothes and his toiletries. Don't know where to. Says this is not what he wants but he understands my decision. This is the third time I have asked him to leave in 12 weeks (1st time was for 2 weeks immediately after disclosure of the PA, 2nd time was for a few days about 6weeks ago). Each time he has respected my wishes.
I am so so gutted. Especially for my children who completely adore him and he them. They are used to him being a very involved parent. He's a hands-on husband about the house too. I feel like my world has collasped, I can't stop crying, the kids haven't had any lunch and have just been in front of the tv all day. What do I do now?? Is there any way back? He says he's determined he will change - is that irrelevant? What's done is done, how do I get over it??

OP posts:
3HotCrossBuns · 27/07/2013 21:49

Did he get angry though and manage it better HotChoc? I'm not excusing my H AT ALL but I have not behaved in a way I am proud of either at times over the last few weeks - I get my anger/pain/distress is justified but swearing, name calling, insults and (at the very beginning only) physically attacking him is not really excusable either. He didn't respond with spite or tantrums for the first couple of months. Maybe that was just how long he was prepared to try for Sad

OP posts:
Jux · 27/07/2013 22:22

Debiliem58 clearly read The Red Queen (here) and misunderstood it - as did, conveniently, many men. Grin

OP, he has been such a cad. You will have a few bumpy days, but you will feel better. Stick with it. You've done the right thing.

ProphetOfDoom · 27/07/2013 22:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ProphetOfDoom · 27/07/2013 22:27

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MadAboutHotChoc · 28/07/2013 07:36

Op - oh yes, I was livid and made sure he knew it. He accepted it (although some of my comments made him wince) - after all as the betrayed party in great pain, I was perfectly entitled to be angry. I didn't physically attack him though.

He was angry at himself but he never took it out on me - why should he when the cause was himself and his selfish entitled choices?

ageofgrandillusion · 28/07/2013 12:33

OP your partner sounds like an entitled, self-centred, selfish, childish prick. He has made an absolute monkey of you in the past and continues to do so. When you pulled him up on his recent affair and finally threatened to split up he showed his true colours and got all nasty which is what most selfish wankers do when they dont get their own way. Now you are back onside i suspect he is feeding you the usual 'i will change, do whatever it takes' bullshit he had previously been feeding you.
Are you you seriously considering staying with this pointless waste of space? I guarantee he will be shagging somebody else inside 18 months, although i suspect to already know that dont you? Some people - some women - really are their own worst enemies.

3HotCrossBuns · 28/07/2013 12:44

Ouch!

He hasn't been all bad either during our relationship or since disclosure of the affairs. Not been all good either. Its not straight forward and I have a lot of things to think about.

OP posts:
Jux · 28/07/2013 13:47

Of course he hasn't! If he had been horrible all the time yyou'd have du,ped him long ago - you would never have actually had a relationship with him in the first place!

People like him know exactly when to be nice, and exactly how nice to be. They need to reel their victims back in, lull them into a false sense of security and then they start the nastiness again.

I think we're all agreed that you are stuck in a never-ending cycle. The only way to stop it is if you kick him out, ignore his promises of reform, his blandishments, his crocodile tears, and keep him out.

Good luck.

3HotCrossBuns · 28/07/2013 14:14

That makes him sound very calculating though. I find that so difficult to believe/accept.

OP posts:
tessa6 · 28/07/2013 14:18

It probably isn't calculating, OP. It's a mistake to think narcissistic behaviour is conscious. Most behaviour boils down to, 'it feels good when i do this, it feels bad when i do this'. He's not plotting, he's just responding to HIS needs. A liar learns that it feels good when they dissemble because people like them more than they would if they told the truth. So they lie more. To feel good (or less bad).

The important lesson is to remember that he is acting in his own self-interest. NOT yours. And appreciate what he's doing and saying always in that light.

3HotCrossBuns · 28/07/2013 14:49

A RL friend who knows what's going on says he's quite 'Jekyll and Hyde' at times. I guess this sort of behaviour is what she's getting at.
He's been with DS1 this morning (cricket) come back and we've had a row about how our financial settlement would work. Basically he wants to include my inheritance. I don't know if he really thinks that or is saying it as he knows it pushes a button for me. Either way not good - surely he shouldn't be pushing my buttons 12 weeks after disclosing an affair???! This is as painful as the infidelity itself - that he's being like this when he should be doing everything possible to save our marriage which is what he says he wants. He has done 'good things' too (dumped OW on day 1, found and arranged his IC and our MC, total transparency on phone, emails etc, has taken responsibility for HIS choice to cheat, told his 'affair story' without being forced to with evidence, dumped a 'friend' of 10years without Q as he knew of the EA, stopped drinking) which is more than the bare minimum required and seems like 'real remorse'. It doesn't feel like the 'fake remorse' Chumplady describes. I am so confused - why bother with all of that if he doesn't care?? I just don't understand HmmHmmHmm He's not perfect and have the 'wrong' reaction sometimes. The Shirley Glass book had examples of cheaters who don't get it tight at the start but still manage to reconcile. I'm going round and round and am upset most of the time.

OP posts:
Squitten · 28/07/2013 14:57

You are trying to come up with an instant solution to all this and that's not going to happen. What you need right now is space from him so that you can think clearly.

It's all very well saying that he has been 'good' but that only seemed to last as long as he thought he was winning. Now that you have taken control of the situation, he has switched. Instead of being remorseful and horrified at the thought of losing his family, he is being aggressive and manipulative. Whatever the reason behind that may be, you should not engage with him when he behaves like this.

Do not get drawn into any discussions over finances. If he wants to talk about that, suggest that he engages a solicitor who will tell him exactly what he's entitled to. It's ALL BLUSTER. He is trying to scare you into taking him back. I think you would be very foolish to do that.

Twinklestein · 28/07/2013 15:21

If you divorce him for adultery, the settlement will be more favourable to the innocent party ie you, so I would ignore his threats about your inheritance and get legal advice.

He's just trying to scare you off divorce.

Your friend is spot on about J & H: on the one hand he's acting appropriately for a genuinely remorseful man; on the other he's trying to manipulate you & threaten you financially. He's both the good father & the unfaithful husband. You like Dr Jekyll, can you live with Mr Hyde?

ProphetOfDoom · 28/07/2013 16:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SawofftheOW · 28/07/2013 16:21

OP I see in your DH's responses and reactions many similarities to my own DH when I discovered his affair and we are still together, but it has been a long hard slog with many, many ups and downs. We are getting better though and I always think that Tessa's advice is so wise - it's not just whether you can forgive: it's whether if you can, or even if you can't (I can't but am learning to live with that and the visceral rage is diminishing but the pain gnaws although less frequently than it did), you are also able to live with this new version of you and he. So that means rebuilding from basics and it's desperately difficult, because you are having to do that whilst still enduring the ongoing pain.

I have to say that your DH did far better than mine in terms of his responses in that he has dumped the OW (I assume you are quite sure of that?), transparency with phone and emails etc. My DH put me and our DC through hell for some months when he vacillated over whether he could put his 'great love' aside and even when he claimed NC, he was still using a secret email account, the work email (he worked with her - fatal) and texting.

I won't bore you with how it all came to an end with her ultimately - but boy did with pay the price in terms of her subsequent rage and attempts to get 'revenge' on both him and me - but what I do know is that his talk of the money settlement etc is really an attempt to scare you to accept that he does want to make a go of it and not go down the route of divorce. Sadly, like my DH, his tantrums and sulks are all too indicative of the mememe response that so many men seem to indulge in when caught with their trousers down. My DH says now that much of his own petulance was (a) because he was still emotionally in the OW's camp and, frankly, didn't give a shit about my feelings (you become a non-person to your DH/DW when they are in the throes an affair), (b) he didn't really want his family life to end, established as it was over 15 years, but (c) he still wanted the excitement of the affair as he had become besotted with the OW, but knew that now they had been discovered, the 'party', the 'bubble-world', had gone for ever, and he now had to deal with real life shit rather than never-never land. It didn't help that his OW was determined that the affair would NOT end and had made it quite clear to her DH that she was 'off' as soon as my DH turned up with his white charger.

The months - nearly three years actually - I have endured of this massive grenade in our marriage have been agonising but I was never in the LTB camp. My reactions, the shouting and striking him, were the same as yours and I make no apology for them. He is a big man and I am a small woman (I know that doesn't make violence right, btw) but my incomprehension, devastation and shock were so great that, yes, I hit him very very hard across the face on first discovery, and then once again when I discovered, several weeks later that his lies about it 'only' being a EA were just that, lies, when he was compelled to tell me about their numerous sexual liaisons, including in my own home, because she had threatened to tell me (in a bid to get him to leave me and go to her).

Subsequently we have had 'honeymoon' periods of happiness, deep lows - usually caused by my hurt bubbling over and overwhelming me - and lots of conversations about divorce. It is always me that says I can't do this' and talk of divorce - when he is driven to the limits of his ability to cope with my anger, he says 'OK - have your divorce'. But thirty minutes later we are now able to make up - a year ago our row would rage for hours, with mutual storming off (but always returning after a drive round the block because although living with each other was so, so hard, being apart was even worse).

I have no illusions though that if his remorse wasn't absolute and genuine, which it is, and if he didn't suffer such obvious mortification and feel such a total fool for his behaviour during the affair and in the months after discovery, I would NOT be here still. But I am only at that stage now - at the point that you are, I could not even begin to contemplate a life without him, which is why I fought so hard for our marriage. All my friends at the time, bar one, said I should throw him out. But that wasn't the right route for ME.

In retrospect, because he was still so besotted with the OW, he feels that mine was the right choice and he knows how hard it was for me, particularly as his behaviour towards me was nothing short of callous and wicked. Reading that he would rather have had his children with the OW (in one of the many emails from him to her that she so generously sent to me during this time) is more painful than I can even begin to express. He says that had I thrown him out, he, rather than lose face, would probably have taken that white charger to her house and whisked her away and then have repented at leisure once it hit him what he had thrown away for something that he now realises was nothing more than a mutual crush that got totally out of hand, and was invested with infinitely more gravity than it truly warranted. I suspect your DH has discovered that painful fact rather earlier than mine and his tantrums are symptomatic of him realising that he is and has been a total wanker and bastard, but not wanting to admit that he is a total wanker and bastard and even harder for ANY of us, having to live, daily, humiliatingly, with the fact that he is and has been a total W and B.

And I'm with you on the behaviour thing. Of course the betraying partner should behave totally perfectly when they are discovered and follow the redemption script, but as fallible human beings that is very difficult. Yes the betrayed partner should not strike the betrayer, but as devastated and similarly fallible human beings, sometimes they do - as well as rant and rave and swear. Dear god, I'm AMAZED that our poor neighbours didn't call the police on any number of occasions at the height of our battle to stay together - yes, there's an inherent contradiction in that I know - but I also suspect you know exactly what I mean.

Nearly three years down the line we have a different marriage to the one we had pre-affair, in some ways so much better, and I know that sounds a terrible cliché, but we genuinely and truly value each other and are both very alive to what we nearly lost: we still have ups and downs but they are more the normal, everyday marital ones (money, tiredness, work, DC misbehaving) and only occasionally do I lose it about 'her' and then usually because there has been trigger (she works hard to try and regain his attention through a variety of mediums). I have managed to get over the sexual jealousy but the emotional betrayal and the secrets and lies have been the hardest thing to learn to live with. Am I glad I did - yes, totally, although it has been hard-won and hugely painful. Is he glad he did? Well I don't think he could be sorrier or more ashamed. that doesn't make him any kind of paragon, because I have to live with how horrifically he behaved towards me for many months in the early days, but it does mean that someone CAN be genuinely remorseful and truly understand the pain they have caused. The secret is emotional intelligence - if your DH has it then I think there is hope for you both. If not and he is just jumping through some obligatory hoops, then I think you have to consider very carefully indeed if you want to spend the rest of your days with this man, no matter how much you love him.

Sorry, a very long post, OP, but I do really understand your confusion, pain and dilemma. The only person who can walk a mile in your shoes in this situation is you at the end of the day. We are here to hold your hand though, carry you on our shoulders when you tire, and cheer you on during this terrible journey for which you never volunteered. Our advice will differ but the outcome we want for you is the same - a resolution that suits you, your children and - yes - your DH - if he is to remain part of your life's mile. xx

AnyFucker · 28/07/2013 18:55

This man is surrounded by women making excuses for him

It's not a good predictor for whether he really will get it

You seem determined to convince yourself that he will, op, but on scant evidence

In fact, his fancy words say one thing, and his actions entirely another

I expect all the hard work on putting the pieces back together will be yours, and the cracks will still be very visible Sad

3HotCrossBuns · 28/07/2013 23:39

I did do a long reply earlier this evening but lost it. Annoying.

Anyway thank you ISawOffTheOW for telling your story. I appreciate you taking the time to do that - and others too. I don't know anyone in RL who had been through the same thing (well I probably do but don't know it!) so whilst I have a very good friend to talk to its a bit like someone who hasn't had children advising on childbirth!! I have been reading AIJP's thread too and there are many helpful posts there too.

The rollercoaster continues here - row at lunchtime, started by me followed by a long-ish chat where I tried to make him see some 'realities'. It's very difficult and we're on a more even keel. For now. Anyway 2 days to going away and a million things to do before then. I think it will be a blessed relief to both of us to get some 'timeout' for a few weeks - we have got ourselves into a very destructive phase and its no good for the children.

OP posts:
SawofftheOW · 29/07/2013 00:17

Oh the horrible, nauseating roller-coaster of emotion and pain - it's like being stuck at sea with terrible seasickness and no land in sight. You won't believe it possible but at some point you will both tire of the drama and high emotion - the pain will remain but you will be able to go longer and longer between the inevitable rows. I won't say that that signals acceptance - why the hell should you accept his dreadful behaviour - but it is the beginning of a more considered response to the situation. But as I wrote earlier, I fell off that 'calmer' wagon regularly so was no paragon.

I wrote on someone else's thread that my work brings me into daily contact with people who are terminally ill. For them there is no 'second chance', no opportunity to make their peace and live a life with a partner who has betrayed them no matter how much they long for that. Life is not very long but it can be infinitely rich emotionally and intellectually - any often these sort of crises make us more rounded people, even if one pays a profound price emotionally and sometimes physically (along with massive weight loss I turned grey and lost my lovely boobs!).IF you two can survive this crisis, find an accommodation with each other and go forward together, then you will have achieved something remarkable. And if you go your separate ways but can do so in a manner that is gracious and puts your children first, then again that will be remarkable.

But please do consider this one point - irrespective of his dreadful behaviour and very petulant responses subsequently, how would you feel if you were never to see him again, and not through divorce but because he was no longer here? And how would he feel if that were to happen to you? If you could both set aside your current warfare for just a moment and contemplate how you might feel if (god forbid) it were to happen to either of you, then I think you might have your answer, in part, about whether beyond this current situation, you still both want each other in your lives. At the moment you BOTH have the luxury of choice.
I hope you will forgive me for asking you that question but it was one a counsellor asked me and it had a profound impact on me. It didn't lessen my pain but it did clarify what I wanted long-term.

Thinking of you and metaphorically holding out the hand of support. X

SawofftheOW · 29/07/2013 00:23

Meant to add that when a friend was asked a similar question by her counsellor, she realised that beyond the fact that her H was the father of her DC and they would be devastated, she felt totally indifferent at the thought of him dying and realised for her, their marriage was beyond resuscitation.

perfectstorm · 29/07/2013 00:32

Men are men, we women will never understand them and them us, men are not born to be faithful.

1970s cod-scientific misogynist bollocks, now thoroughly debunked in any reputable branch of science.

On to more important matters: OP, he's had two affairs, and is now incredibly angry that you won't allow him to be the victim, the poor diddle ickle who deserves all the focus and attention and drama. He's a manchild. I am so sorry, but speaking as someone whose ex was a pile of useless slime, and is now married to someone lovely, you can, and will, do better. You deserve that. We all do.

You are trying so hard to trust his fine words, as Anyfucker has commented, and you're tying yourself in knots to do it because his actions are so disgusting. He is actually ANGRY because you aren't sure whether your marriage can survive his infidelity, and because you won't allow him to be the victim and the one in need of focused support and attention. Those are the facts. He wants some of your inheritance money because he is a greedy fucker - that's why he wanted affairs, and why he wants the sympathy when found out. He wants the lot and fuck you if you argue against that and want some scraps for yourself.

There's a saying, "When someone tells you who they are, believe them." His actions and a lot of his words are showing you he is an egocentric, entitled monster. He is NOT sorry. He just doesn't want you to leave him and is saying the bare minimum - but he doesn't want things to change, either, in terms of the relationship dynamic. Which indicates to me that you give him a huge amount of nurture and reassurance, and he resents any suggestion that it be diluted by a more genuinely reciprocal relationship.

3HotCrossBuns · 29/07/2013 10:03

One of the things I had said in my post that got lost was that I think you are a remarkably brave and strong lady SawOffTheOW. Your H's OW sounds like a nightmare! Ours has disappeared off into a conscience-free sunset with her unaware DH, poor sod. I want to smash her face in but know I am better to let sleeping dogs lie.

It's difficult for the cheater to really understand how it feels to be on the receiving end of infidelity. I don't think anyone who hasn't experienced it really gets it. He does truly believe he's trying his best though - I'd forgotten that along with dumping the OW (and I have no doubts about that) and his dodgy mate, he has also pulled out of a stag do and a lads uni reunion weekend - both without discussing with me and without me asking him to.

We are at a very low point though. I'm struggling to deal with the extent of his bad behaviour (2 separate affairs both with emotional betrayal), the lies and deceit for all the reasons many posters have pointed out. It's very hard to see the person you love most in this world as this despicable monster.

Anyway today is another day.

OP posts:
Chubfuddler · 29/07/2013 11:05

Feeling sad at the thought of a hypothetical bereavement doesn't mean you should forgive someone and stay married to them. What a ridiculous idea.

AnyFucker · 29/07/2013 11:25

this "life is too short" and "what about if you lost him to cancer/horrible accident" schtick also works the other way

for me, life is too short (and there are too many other men in the world I could get my jollies with) to put myself through such torment to hang onto one who treated me so abominably

ChippingInHopHopHop · 29/07/2013 12:02

Chub & AF - I agree.

SawofftheOW - I don't want to diminish what you have achieved, at all. You have worked incredibly hard to rebuild your marriage and it sounds like your DH did too. It is rare for the adulterer to be prepared or able to put the 'effort' in. If you are now happy, I am happy for you. However, I do wonder if you wouldn't be as or more happy right now (and for the past 3 years) if you had chosen not to do this. As you know, it takes an enormous toll on you to continue to be in a relationship with someone who has betrayed you so badly and I'm not sure that 'holding onto your man' is always what it's cracked up to be. But I hope you are truely happy and feel you made the best decision for you :) x

Hot - yes, today is another day :) Reading 'Saws' story reminds me so much of one of my best friends... she is still with her DH, they have a different marriage than before his affair, vastly different. She (less so him) went through years of hell to rebuild it, and it's 'ok'. But mentally, physically and emotionally it took a toll on her and she's not half the person she once was and although in some ways she is content with life now... she does wonder if it wouldn't have been better to have just coped with the pain of losing her DH (who she had been with for 20 odd years from a teenager) & got on with her life. She doesn't trust her DH, she just works on the theory that she's not going to live her life being suspicious and that she would deal with it at the time if she finds out he's cheating on her again. Which in some ways is the only way you can be, but, that lack of trust and security in the relationship means there is a closeness missing - that knowing the other person will have your back, will be there for you. I don't know how to explain what I mean any better - sorry.

It is not easy to LTB, not at all. It bloody hurts, it's sodding hard... you want the man you thought you had before you discovered their affair... you just want to turn the clock back - the hardest realisation is that you can't do that. You can never have that back. Not ever. The only thing you can have, is a new relationship with the person your DH is now & the new you... and you have to decide if it's worth putting yourself through one hell of a lot of pain, for a very long time, to get that.

I wish I could hold you and then put your brain in the freezer for you, so that you can just stop thinking about it for a while
x

SawofftheOW · 29/07/2013 21:43

Hey, only repeating what was said to both me and a friend by (separate) counsellors! As for hanging on to my man, well my man didn't want to go when the cards were on the table - he's the one now 'hanging on to me' - so to speak. And no, I wouldn't be happier if we had separated - I am a pragmatist and although not attractive like his OW, I didn't think for a moment I would end up alone. Not that that would have bothered me if I had. However I refuse to apologise for loving him - yes, he behaved like a shit - and indeed I went through a hell that was greatly exacerbated by his having had an affair with an OW who proved to be virtually a Glenn Close equivalent when she didn't get 'her' man. But it was the right decision for me, for him, for our DC. If it hadn't been I wouldn't have done it - period.