Asked H to leave - in total crisis

[3HotCrossBuns]

Some of you might recall I had a thread recently about contacting the OW which then uncovered some other feelings I was having about whether I could try to reconcile with my H. Anyway fast forward a couple of weeks and it's as if the penny has dropped for him and he is taking more responsibilty and accountability for his choices, saying that he does love me and wants to help me heal, has given me space when I needed it, cuddles when I needed it, set up a tracker on his phone, has given me total transparency on his phone since day 1 etc etc.
Thing is, I feel so hurt and betrayed by his recent PA/EA and his previous EA that I don't think I can get past it. As part of both of those affairs he talked about leaving me, 'escaping his life' etc. I don't think he is seeing the OW (finished with her over the phone on day 1 with me in the room). But I am so devasted by what he has done already that I can't value him now - I don't like him much. Or respect him.
This morning whilst he was out (having an STI check!) I went back through the emails on the pc and found the emails from the EA. I was so upset that, when he got back, I told him we were done and to leave immediately. After a heated discussion he has gone with a change of clothes and his toiletries. Don't know where to. Says this is not what he wants but he understands my decision. This is the third time I have asked him to leave in 12 weeks (1st time was for 2 weeks immediately after disclosure of the PA, 2nd time was for a few days about 6weeks ago). Each time he has respected my wishes.
I am so so gutted. Especially for my children who completely adore him and he them. They are used to him being a very involved parent. He's a hands-on husband about the house too. I feel like my world has collasped, I can't stop crying, the kids haven't had any lunch and have just been in front of the tv all day. What do I do now?? Is there any way back? He says he's determined he will change - is that irrelevant? What's done is done, how do I get over it??

You just have to follow your feelings. You asked him to leave because you didn't want him there. I can't believe he's angry at you for asking him to leave - he committed the ultimate betrayal when he entertained this other woman.

You don't have to make decisions today - don't make a call that you might regret because you feel like you need to map your future now. You don't. Give it time; give each other space. The right decision will come to you when you give it a chance - amid confusion and upset is not the time to be making big decisions. Give yourself a break. I so feel for you; nothing hurts like the pain of being betrayed by the one you love.

My reaction was an intense emotional one yes. But I have been struggling and swinging between extremes for 12 weeks. I just don't know anything anymore. I know what I WANT to believe but I'm on 'high alert' for examples of 'bad' responses by H and I flip out at the slightest thing. Its obviously impossible to trust him right now. I suspect he feels that nothing he does is good enough

Leaves the marital home for the third party or just leaves? Presumably has to be permanent.

Just leaves, but it has to be permanent yes.

I totally understand why you're so confused. It's such a tough situation.

Do you have any gut feeling about whether, if you chose to work at the marriage you could actually forgive him, and whether he would actually be able to be faithful?

That's what it come down to, not how much you love him, or how much he loves you, just - can you forgive him, can he change?

Because if you can't or he can't or both, it doesn't matter how much love there is.

OP, I don't have time to read the thread so I don't know if you do know where your DH has gone. If he's returned to the OW, it puts a different light on things and I'm so sorry. Regarding your original post, I think you need to give yourself more time. What a horrendous experience. Your DH will need to win back your intimacy and prove his worth over a period of time. It's no wonder you're flipping out with the strain of trying to jump straight into marriage as if nothing had happened. Everything is different now. In addition to that, you're trying to work through very raw feelings of pain and anger while trying to maintain a functional marriage. This feels like too much to me. I would be asking your DH to go to a flat if possible, and meet several times a week and at Relate.

I doubt he has really gone to the OW, she's also married. And I do actually believe he's had no contact with her from day 1. I think it was something to provoke a response from me. At least I hope so!!
I just don't know anymore about our relationship - the voice in my head telling me he's not a bad man, he's just lashing out, he does want our marriage to work etc etc is very strong. I guess it's why I kept hanging in there over the last 12 weeks - which have not be smooth sailing at all either. This all just feels so fucked up. I feel so sad for my DC They are so young still. My 2 boys have both asked for H this evening. It's gutting.

He may not be a bad man.

However, I don't think he is committed enough to the hard work involved in repairing the marriage.

He comes across as immature and lacks respect for you and his family.

He is not capable of putting your needs and his family FIRST. Its easy to be a brilliant dad when things are going well for you - by having two affairs, he has failed you and his DC.

He should be sucking it up instead of having tantrums - the angry texts would be the last straw for me.

In a mad way the angry texts at least showed he is bothered. With the swings between extremes and emotional turmoil of the last few months he has sort of 'shut down' and gone 'numb' as he calls it. He has spoken to his IC about that previously but I have found it difficult.

He came back in the early hours - calmed down, very apologetic. About everything. Says he is very angry at himself and how he has behaved in the past, that he's desperately sorry for hurting me, that he really wants to change, he loves me etc etc. He has been caring and said he wants to be with me. He has said a lot of his texts were angry lashing out and that he didn't mean a lot of it. Still unpleasant though. And very 'childlike' behaviour. He definitely has a 'golden child' complex - his mother has never criticised him and he finds it very difficult to deal with. My mother thinks he's not emotionally mature/calculating enough to be playing games deliberately with me to keep me connected to him - more that he's feeling desperate and very upset. And that he lacks the ability to control his reactions. That's not the same as being able to face the hard graft required to fix this though - I think he believes he wants to and can, but then who has the self-awareness to know whether that's possible? It's much easier for me to judge that from the outside. But very difficult to follow though!!

Anyway he's been here for today - says he wants to spend time with the children as they will be with me for all of August. They are used to spending lots of time together and I don't want to punish the children. Also the time apart is more about space for me to get some thinking time than about 'teaching him a lesson'. He is looking for a b&b locally so knows he's not sleeping here until after I have gone away.

I am still stuck in limbo land. This is so so hard, when do others 'know' it is right to walk away?? I guess some cheaters leave or don't even try to make the effort to reconcile. H is trying in good faith (I believe) he's just not handling it very well. Aarrgghhhh I'm feeling very confused - and feel like I have backtracked from yesterday when in the intense pain from reading the emails I said it was all over. I really don't want to be a single parent (who does?!) and am somewhat fearful of the hard and lonely time that would be. Its a crap choice. What a bloody mess I find myself in.

You are in the centre of a crisis and can't see straight. of course for both of you reconciling looks preferable at the moment. It is the short-term 'easiest' solution. That doesn't mean it's right. It might be but right now you are both too scared of the alternative.

What are we really talking about? Let's go back to what I said about whether, deep down, you can forgive him and want to be with him. Forget about him changing, making good, being faithful again. Just look at what he has done. when you look at that clearly, without making excuses, can you see yourself in the future being able to love him and eventually forgive him and have what you think of as a happy life?

I have no agenda with that question, but I wonder if you need to take the questions step by step. Because if the answer to that deep down, with reflection is a sad, no, then you may as well not bother asking yourself the other questions about him and the future.

I don't know Tessa6! Is forgiveness essential? I've read the Shirley Glass book and it seems that forgiveness is one of the last things to happen? Anyway I intend to read the book again - you're right I can't think straight at the moment and re reading it might help.

Hello 3HCB, I read your other thread, think I posted on it and just wanted to concur with the other posters who've said that you can't think straight at the moment. You're in the eye of the storm and understandably what you're experiencing presently is very painful.

This is why you need some time apart so you can digest what has happened and make some decisions without feeling as though you're being pulled in all directions.

Re-reading the Glass book is a good idea but I woudn't dive into it hoping for instantaneous answers. You've been through a hell of a shock and you need time. If your husband cannot see that then tough. He has no right to make any demands on you right now. Your immediate priority is yourself and your children. Push him to the back of your mind right now (easy for me to say, I know) and give yourself some space then with a clearer head you can move forward in whichever way you feel is right for you.

It's fine not to know and yes forgiveness happens gradually over time. i'm trying to find out if you are the type of person who will get over this or not. If not, which is totally fine, you're much better off cutting your losses now, as this cycle is debilitating for all concerned and actually makes it harder and harder to break up each time.

Look at it this way, if I could tell you that he wouldn't be unfaithful to you again, and after a couple of years your relationship would be on the whole as good as it was in the past before this affair (but only as good as that) would you take that?

Working on his character flaws and traits is a vital part of the recovery process - it sounds like he has a very long way to go. His lack of self awareness and lack of self control will make this very very hard

H is prepared to give me time - he's keen to move forward but is happy to be patient for me.

Tessa6 - did you mean this most recent affair or before the earlier EA from 5 ish years ago? I'd take our pre-both affairs relationship but not the pre-recent affair one if that makes sense. There are a number of similarities, behaviour patterns in both affairs which need to be addressed properly by H. You're right though - this cycle is extremely debilitating. Yesterday was the third time I've thrown him out and it's getting more volatile not less. I desperately need some space - my head aches all the time.

SM - did you split with your H in the end then? One of the things I said to my H a couple of weeks ago was that his unreliable and inconsistent remorse and response to me would be what prevents reconciliation NOT the infidelity itself. I think that shocked him!

Anyway I really really appreciate the responses on this thread, thank you so much for taking the time to post - the responses are thought provoking and considered. I'm not sure I could cope with just LTB at the moment!

And yes he does have a very long way to go, HotChoc. Some progress is being made though - he's 'joining up the dots' now in a way he wasn't before. It's a start at least.

Ill tell you the truth from my perspeective. I found it extremely difficult to disengage. At first the anger - my exH did something that put DC1 11 at big risk - helped. But quickly he ate away at me sense that I was in the right, was alternately angry , horrible and spiteful; then weepy desperate and apologetic. It was all so exhausting and no space for me to heal.

Going away, we went somewhere I knew well, really really helped and by the end of the two weeks I knew in my heart that I did not want to go back. It helped enormously that where I was there was extremely limited phone reception. I limited my conversations with him severely as I realised after a week of 99% calm that i became horribly upset every time I spoke to him. When there was a chance for calm - just spending the day with the kids, and no high drama (ie phone calls/tests) I regained my equilibrium.

That was by no means the end, but it did give me strength to know that I at least had clarity. It is NOT all about him. What about how you feel ? I am also going to recommend "co-dependent no more" by melody beattie - because to be honest I think you are co-dependent. A non co-dependent woman would have been able to draw the line, recognise that HIS behavior has destroyed the marriage and make steps to protect herself and her children. You re finding this impossible to do despite extreme provocations ( as did I )

please do one day at a time. Get some space.

I am supporting you and sending you a hug x

Lemonstartree - thank you so much for your honest post. V helpful indeed. I have a copy of Co-dependent No More as it was recommended on my previous thread. I've made a start but not really got past the introduction!! Will prioritise this over my other reading now!! One of the things my IC said (I've only had 3 sessions) is that I'm a stable person and have been his rock for years whilst he's had various episodes of crisis - he has had work issues for 10 years on and off, parental problems, depression and so on. I have carried his emotional baggage for him, been his 'wife-mummy' that he off loads onto. I've never seen it like that. Is that co-dependency? Is it possible for both partners to change so that he is no longer doing his 'bad' things and I am no longer co- dependent?? Or is that an impossibility??

Currently H seems to have failed to have found a room for tonight..... Tough shit.

It's a very bad sign he did it again, and that it has been progressive (from EA to PA) from what you say. I would imagine there are character traits that contribute to the affair that spill out in other ways too. Just from what you've described here he seems immature, impulsive, spiteful and child-like. This veering from throwing a tantrum to begging contrition puts you rather in mummy mold when you should be the one being taken care of and allowed to be vulnerable.

If there was a substantial period of time during which your spouse was not being unfaithful and it was past a 'honeymoon phase' in your relationship (more than 2 and a half years in) it's worth assuming that your relationship has the potential, however slim the chance, of recovery. That doesn't mean you should or can though, but there;s a chance. If there isn't a period like this you can point to and say was 'very good' then there's little to no chance there ever will be again. A relationship that was never great will never magically become great.

I think it's very unhealthy that you have to be so parental towards him, and must surely make you find him kind of unattractive??!

Of course none of us know your h but he sounds horrible nI'm sorry to say.

You said he's depressed, from experience I would be very surprised if he is and manages affairs. Depression saps energy confidence libido etc. What I'm trying to say is that he sounds utterly selfish and willing to blame everything but himself for his gross betrayal of you and his children. Do you really still want him as your life partner after all this crap?

It isn't easy and when you are in the middle of it, it is (rarely) anything like black & white. It is also very difficult to accept advice (to leave) because your instant reaction is 'You don't know him like I do, he really is a lovely bloke who is just going through xyz'. We (pretty much) all do it. We want everything to be OK and will go to great lengths to convince ourselves it's possible :(

For me, the fact that he has had a second affair would be a deal breaker. He didn't learn from the first one. He felt able to have another affair - presuming that if you found out you'd forgive him again (albeit with a couple of 'sorry's'), he was willing to knowingly risk his marriage and living with his children for whatever the OW was offering (emotional support/understanding/sex/whatever)... he valued & wanted that more than your marriage, more than he wanted to live with his children - and you cannot tell me that someone who has already had an affair and put that on the line doesn't realise what they are doing the second time around.

My opinion is, that if you 'forgive' him this time and take him back, he will say the right things... but in time will do it again. No matter what he says now.

I think he lacks the maturity, the awareness of the impact his actions have on those around him & selflessness required to rebuild a relationship after an affair and I think you would just be in for a lot more heartache.

Sorry - I know it's not what you want to hear :(

Thank you SM for sharing your story. It sounds like your STBExH wasn't prepared to give up his OW which would make reconciliation very difficult!!

Tessa6 - we have been together for 17 years, we met at uni. I feel like we have 'grown up together'. Or not, maybe, in his case!! The infidelity spans a period of 18 months maybe EA and 4+ months PA. So 2 years tops. There are other examples of selfish and entitled behaviour particularly excessive drinking and lying about his whereabouts (not just related to OW) at various times and which are concentrated during 2years of him being badly bullied at work. At this time our DSs were a baby and a young toddler and I was at capacity at home. A stressful time which H says he didn't cope with at all well. He was then made redundant and after a tough 6months at home he got a new job just before our youngest was born. Things settled down and his 'issues' just got swept under the carpet. Including the EA which I was not aware of at the time (although I had a suspicion but it was confused with something else and never explored).
A second redundancy happened towards the end of 2011 and he was off work for 10months. During this time I think he had a breakdown of sorts -a couple of friends also noticed and independently expressed concern for him (volatile behaviour, short tempered with the kids, excessive drinking). Unfortunately he was in the process of losing it when he started this new job after a long spell at home and almost on the first 'mistake' happening started a spiral of self-destruct. His behaviour (incl the PA and excessive drinking again) from Dec to March/April this year was very very destructive, resulted in a breakdown for which he's now on ADs (low dose) and having counselling. He has scared himself with just how bad things got. I don't think for one minute he is taking his behaviour casually. However he does have a long journey ahead of him to resolve his character weaknesses and he is a little 'woe is me' at times. It can be hard to face your inner demons I suppose. Anyhow the fact that the bulk of our relationship was good gives me hope. It is difficult though as almost half our marriage was not!

ChippingIn - I fear what I might have just done above is go to the great lengths to convince myself that reconciliation is possible. However nothing happens in a vacuum and the background is relevant. I know he didn't learn from the first affair - he was never caught, as nothing physical happened he was able to minimise it/forget it in his mind, he never explored his behaviour patterns until now. However after his (and therefore mine) life imploding so dramatically this year he is looking at himself, wanting to identify all his problems and take steps to deal with it all now thoroughly and properly. He's struggling with it though and at times will react without thinking. I guess it depends on how much I believe he can effect the changes required. And whether I can 'get over' what he's done regardless of what happens in the future.

None of this background excuses what he has done. He recognises that the appropriate thing would have been to raise things with me properly, like a grown up. He didn't, he effectively ran away.

Lots and lots to think about.

I am one of the few who decided to let DH stay after his affair.

Believe me when I say its one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to make - in some ways a fresh start would be much easier. However his remorse, commitment and willingness to put in all the hard work required means we have been able to rebuild our marriage. I have to say he showed far more self awareness, maturity and commitment than your DH.

Not once has he thrown a temper tantrum, lashed out or be spiteful - if he has, there would have been no way I would have taken him back.