One about a sad pregnant lady married to a sad angry man.

[izchaz]

Before I start, please don't read this and say "divorce him, he's a shit head", much as that might be outstanding advice it's not an option I want to engage with. What I'm after is help in turning the negatives in my relationship into positives. How do I let go of the grief and hurt, and how do I persuade my husband to stop beating himself up over the protracted affair he had with my best friend (no longer)? I try every day to push the positives in our relationship: we're a good team, we can laugh and have fun together, we have an incredible group of friends that we share, we are going to be parents to a much wanted baby, and when we are both behaving we have glimpses of what used to be - it's easy to be together and we can both see how much the other loves us. However whenever times get tough - work stress, the whisper of tightening belts, having to multitask or balance multiple issues at once then the whole house of cards crumbles and one of us reverts to recriminations and aiming to wound the other. He is under a huge amount of pressure with work, an impending family bereavement, the worry of my earnings disappearing when I go off on maternity etc etc, and I try so hard to keep him afloat. On the days when I fail, as yesterday he rails and I cannot help but bite back. Last night we fought from 9 at night until 3am, and only stopped because our lodger came home. Once he has started he will follow me from room to room, verbally attacking and prickling me until I re-engage the fight. I am desperate to stop the cycle as I am conscious that our marriage is tiny and frail (married 11 months, his affair was on/off for the first 7, and when confronted twice he lied about it) and I do not feel it can stand up to such punishment without becoming a very twisted paradigm of what we wanted when we got engaged.
Please, help me to figure out how to break the cycle of bad behaviour we have both sunk into, I am miserable with him now, and would be miserable without him, but we had something so good and so precious not so long ago, and I want to find a way back to that.

PeriodFeatures I can't say I have a lot of interest in whatever it is you are trying to imply. But when you say that nobody that has any experience with x subject matter would disagree with your view then 2 things will generally happen - you will be proved wrong and it reads as the start of exactly what I said 'misery top trumps' leading only to people being validated if they regale the thread with the worst story.

That crass and narrow minded sentiment is rude.

But as you don't read things you don't like I doubt you'll get this far.

To all the people who are being heavily critical, have you ever had to deal with someone who has a personality disorder? I'm guessing not. Not all people with mental health issues are ''vulnerable'' Some are really dangerous.

This is the comment you were offfended by tb ? ^^

I'm not clear.

I guess just felt that people were being massively harsh and one sided and making o.p's DH out to be some kind of predatory, cheating, abusive, lying person and I didn't see it entirely that way. It kind of pissed me off actually.

I'm not denying he has no responsibility but lots of factors impact on the choices people make and unless we know what those factors are it is really not helpful to be harsh and dictatorial.

I have obviously raised your heckles. TB I'm not trying to imply anything other than that people can overcome stuff and be better for it.

P.D can be really dangerous. Sorry but that is fact.

But you make it sound like the poor little lamb was forced to have sex with this terribly dangerous man eater woman. He chose to do it, whatever dangerous sociopathic nonsense she came out with later, the point is, none of this would ever have happened if he had similar chosen NOT TO FUCK HER. He fucked her BECAUSE HE WANTED TO. That makes him a cheat and a liar. Anything else is excuses and weasel words. And if you can't see that you have a very low opinion of what anyone deserves from their supposedly committed spouse.

The talk you had with your husband, in which he seems to have been more honest, is clearly a step forward. However, my concern is that discussion was essentially powered by you. It feels like people here have advised that he has got to be more honest, and you have made this happen. The initiation of the talk, and the total honesty should have come from him.

I don't mean should come from him in an ideal world, I mean has to come from him if this relationship is to survive.

You seem to be the one the making the superhuman effort while pregnant & working to fix this - laying out your heart on a plate on a public forum, at a time when you are immensely vulnerable, which takes a great deal of courage, because you are so determined to save this marriage. You are clearly a fixer and that's not necessarily a negative, but your intended goals need to be achievable otherwise you are simply throwing away time and energy.

I don't get the impression your H is working as hard as you to cover the ground necessary to rebuild this relationship. And I draw your attention to it only because it is an indication that he may not have the stamina for the long haul that trying to fix it. Because it's going to take a hell of a long time.

It's interesting that he has agreed to "take steps to deal with his anger and frustration - ramping up his physical activity a notch". He comes across in your account of him as an angry person. It's good that he has acknowledged this as I think his anger may be a problem in itself, quite separate from the infidelity issue. I think it's naïve to believe that physical exercise will do much - it can help to burn off the effects of the anger - but to really address it he needs to look at its roots within himself. That is another long project.

This sentence in your latest posts struck me:

What I am saying is that I don't think he would have strayed with any other woman, because no other woman would have put the pressure on him -and on me- in precisely the right sort of way, she has been the perfect storm of cuckold.

I think here you are slipping back into self-deception here. What you're saying is that if only the cards had fallen differently he wouldn't have been tempted, which puts all the onus on chance and not on his own weakness.

In fact, the obvious inference is that if he could cheat with his wife's best friend in the early days of marriage, when she is a guest in your house & apparently vulnerable, then he could cheat with anyone. Who is to say another woman won't put 'pressure' on him in some other situation? If his fidelity relies on no other woman ever being in a position to make advances & pressure him, then you have no security.

One further thing is that you have not posited any reason why he chose to be unfaithful. I don't think it's just about weakness & acting on impulse, opportunity. I think it may be a message, an angry or even passive aggressive act. A message with his will and his body that he is perhaps not able to speak in words.

What it communicates to me is that on some level he that he may not be comfortable in this marriage. Not necessarily consciously. Not necessarily that he doesn't love you, nor that he doesn't want to have children. But that for some reason, he is struggling with the relationship and/or himself and that was the way he manifested some inner issues. If you say that he did not cheat on previous gfs, although of course this is difficult to be sure of, then the implication is that there is something specific in his relationship with you that is problematic for him.

I am going to speculate here, and as I've never met him it may be completely unfair, & I acknowledge that. You come across as intelligent and articulate, perhaps more so than your H. I wonder if you are too intelligent for him, that he feels that your standards & expectations are too high, that he cannot live up to them. It may be that you were someone he aspired to marry but finds that he does not feel comfortable married to. I say this as no criticism of you, I don't mean that you are doing anything wrong, I'm just questioning whether you are as compatible as would like to believe. Anyway its just a suggestion.

Because even taking temptation, weakness, & a particular concatenation of circumstances into account, if he had been absolutely 100% committed to this marriage, he wouldn't have jeopardised it.

GoodtoBetter I've never said he wasn't wrong. I just offered a different point of view. OP knows he was totally out of order to go there. He is also clearly gutted about the choices he made and seems to care deeply about his wife.

I guess I can only give my point of view from my own experience which will not be the same as everyone elses. I'm not going to apologise for that.

Two adults who are choosing to put their love for one another above a notion of right and wrong and have the resilience, hope and courage to work through it...bloody good on them. If everyone was able to be that honest and courageous and stick through pain and face themselves then perhaps the divorce rates would be lower.

Especially that their child might just have a chance of having two loving parents in a unit who from here on after will protect their marriage and homelife and take nothing for granted.

There is nothing wrong with that IMO

OP, this post by totallybursar actually made me freeze up. She's so right. Have you processed this fact?

"...the picture she painted and facade she constructed was of a vulnerable, pregnant woman fleeing or trying to cope with DA. "

He BELIEVED she was a pregnant, abused woman seeking refuge in your home from her violent husband and he - I'm sorry but - fucked her!

What the actual fuck!!!! What decent man does that!?

I'm sorry, but as an intelligent woman, are you not questioning just how much of his anger stems from the fact the innocent little lamb he was so sexually drawn to was a manipulative wolf that duped him? He sounds like a man who prides himself on his intellect.

"Two adults who are choosing to put their love for one another above a notion of right and wrong and have the resilience, hope and courage to work through it...bloody good on them. If everyone was able to be that honest and courageous and stick through pain and face themselves then perhaps the divorce rates would be lower."

You talk about two adults doing that. I see only one doing that here.

In an attempt to try to make sense of the exchange (above) - I lost track and couldn't work out who was who, what was said etc - I've read some more of your posts OP.

Darling, I hope these are pregnancy hormones/shock because, frankly, you're barking. You have devised a world that you insist is real, realer than the real one; to which every decent person should comply; because it's perfect and it works in your head . You should start a religion, you've got it all sorted.

Yes of course people are/can be sex-mad beasts. It was desperately naive to throw those two together for extended periods of time. We 're not talking now and again, we're talking 60-odd texts a day; and days and days together over an extended period ffs - get real!

But you thought that because it came under the auspices of your saving grace, it was somehow clean and unpolluted, an especial space. But it wasn't - look what happened.

And here you are flinging yourself around, making pompous pronouncements; or being jolly, or bossy: THINK WHAT I THINK, SAY WHAT I SAY YOU CAN SAY - OR YOU ARE CRUEL TO A POOR PREGNANT WOMAN, HOW DARE YOU'.

But wait! You've had the convo of all convos with your husband - and everything's sorted! Just like that! Woh, like, miraculous

"...the picture she painted and facade she constructed was of a vulnerable, pregnant woman fleeing or trying to cope with DA. "

He BELIEVED she was a pregnant, abused woman seeking refuge in your home from her violent husband and he - I'm sorry but - fucked her!

What the actual fuck!!!! What decent man does that!?

Indeed....he's not a good man whichever way you look at it.

He's not a good man. You can paint it all sorts of colours and put spin on it, but a good, decent man would not have done this. It wasn't just a "series of mistakes" (which sounds like the kind of thing hospitals say when their patient mortality creeps too high), it was a series of warped, wilful, morally lax decisions.

I'm not sure he is bad tbh, I really don't know. He may be, but he may not be. What he did was foul but ime some people are siren-like and can lure people onto the rocks - not that he can throw up his hands and use that as an excuse, because he did it, no matter how you look at it; and it was foul.

But he is surrounded by mad as snakes women. Or one, at least. We can't know about the other one.

Or maybe he's mad, too. Maybe this is a mad triangle but only one has been carted off.

[qualifying: not sure, don't know, maybe [quote]]

I'll be honest: OP you remind me an awful lot of me when my XP did the dirty seven years ago. I, too, took my mother's tolerance of my father's affair as my relationship model and made every excuse in the book for XP's behaviour, particularly as he was clearly in great emotional turmoil himself.

But you know what? seven years on I completely agree with everyone on here. I wish I'd had the strength to see it at the time.

You seem like an intelligent woman. Your coping mechanism is to intellectualise what's happening so you don't feel the emotional pain too badly, so I'd recommend a bit of reading for you: Melody Beattie's codependent no more and Robin Norwood's Women who love too much.

OP no advice but a couple of observations. I know 2 women who forgave their husbands for affairs. Neither marriage survived. In one case the affair was with the woman's best friend. In due course the woman discovered the forgiven husband was having another affair. He left and went to live with the OW. In the other case the woman begged the husband not to leave, partly because of their children. He left to live with OW.
Not only did neither marriage survive neither of these men stayed with the OW.

*It was desperately naive to throw those two together for extended periods of time. We 're not talking now and again, we're talking 60-odd texts a day; and days and days together over an extended period ffs - get real!

But you thought that because it came under the auspices of your saving grace, it was somehow clean and unpolluted, an especial space. But it wasn't - look what happened*

I am actually relieved to know I live in a world where people have hope, trust, are willing to care for others. ~Yes it's a pollyanna attitude but OP is never going to let her boundaries down in the same way ever again and I expect, it is some of this hope and optimism that will help her salvage the situation.

My take on it is that for whatever reason, this woman fulfilled a role for her DH. He felt manly, wanted needed, important and all of those things that men like to feel, bit of a hero/ knight in shining armour. OP facilitated this to a degree. A bloke with some self restraint and self awareness may have examined this and recognised that this is what is lacking in his relationship rather than responding. But he responded to this then lied. He will hopefully grow a backbone and recognise he has behaved disgracefully. Both of which it sounds like he has.

People who are saying 'he'll do it again' are not right, how can they be certain? They can't.

I know 2 women who forgave their husbands for affairs. Neither marriage survived

Primrose, the two women you know does not make this a rule of thumb. There are also marriages that survive affairs and couples who's marriages are strengthened after an affair.

I think the human spirit can overcome a great deal of adversity. People can change, learn and grow through horrible problems. If two people are both willing to face themselves and recommit to one another, why the hell shouldn't they repair the vows that they have made between one another. Surely those vows can be more important that what is basically a load of rhetoric? Sorry but some of the criticism of OP and her DH is nothing more than that, Rhetoric.

Yes hope, trust, willing to care for others - lovely. But within boundaries. You have to be sensible about it. Particularly as vulnerable people are often tricky and can slip about. It is naive to assume that being kind and caring somehow cancels out any negatives, as though it is a higher force and nothing else can operate within its boundaries.

Hope and trust within boundaries is, imo, one of the greatest greatest things going. it is fabulous. And it is also safe, for all concerned. Hope and trust without boundaries is imo naive, stupid, playing with fire.

'People who are saying 'he'll do it again' are not right, how can they be certain? They can't.'

I suspect that they have first hand experience, either as a partner or as a child. My mother was the woman least likely to. She was a mother to five children, not very happy, not a great relationship with my dad, but it was no different to many, many women of her generation. You got knocked up and you got married. You stayed home and did the washing. We all went to school clean and fed (although fairly neglected in many other ways).

When I was seven she got a job in a pub. She discovered rather belatedly that she was still attractive to men. She went on a very long booze and blokes bender. This despite my father completely losing it and beating her up regularly. We left once (she and I) but she couldn't hack it on her own. Came back and went quiet for a while and then had a seven year affair which lasted until I was about 19 I think, and she was 54.

She kept repeating the pattern of infidelity despite getting physically and emotionally punished for it at home. This is what people do. Once they've started it, it seems to make the unthinkable thinkable, and doable.

yup springtotty totally agree !! And only someone really daft would keep running that script after getting burnt. OP doesn't seem stupid to me. I don't think she'll be doing that again!

LoisPddingLane that is really sad. I'm sorry to hear that. Thank god we live in a society where it is more possible for people to step out of abusive situations and we have a culture where therapeutic help and support si more accessible than it used to be.

Yes, i think that what you say about 'once they've started it it seems to make the unthinkable, thinkable and doable' is spot on. I wonder what it is that propels some people to break cycles and others to perpetuate them or stay in them?

I was brought up by a mother who lived with her head in melody beattie books and went to women?s growth and development groups. (which had it's own set of consequences on us - not all good) So I guess a lot of our views come from our own experiences.

Wasn't really angling for sympathy but thanks. I kind of forget how shitty it looks from the outside. The summer that we left (to stay with mum's then boyfriend and his wife and kids (wtf?)), was the summer before the first women's refuge opened, strangely enough in our part of London.

I have never married or been in a long term relationship. I tell myself all sorts of reasons for this, but the bottom line is I could not bear to put myself in the situation my parents were in.

Well you have it and how , whether you wanted it or not

Where's the kingdom-building OP?

has anyone seen that wigs for babies ad on the main page [gruesome]

Well one can never have too much sympathy. And tea. Lots of tea.

I haven't entirely given up hope of meeting someone and "settling down" as they say, but I suppose I've left it a bit late.

Lois My mum finally found a bloke and got married at 65. She's happier than she's ever been.

(and has stopped reading all those bloody self help books!) It's not too late :)

spring totty They are not right because they can't predict. I'm not either. But I won't be pedantic!

Baby Wigs ? you are joking....

And look at Tina Turner getting married at 73. NEVER TOO LATE.

But I hope to pick a nice one who isn't tasty with his fists.

I'm still reading
Springytotty you are without doubt the most patronising person of the internet I've ever had the misfortune to stumble across. Please don't call me "dear" or "darling", you don't know me, it doesn't make what say any more sensible. I do hope that's not too bossy for you mind, I would want my approach to upset afterall.
Twinklestein - you make some interesting points - yes I am making a superhuman effort whilst pregnant, because I want this resolved, or at least a clear path to take before the baby comes, which is not to suggest that DH isn't likewise making a similar level of effort, he is, it's just easier for me to relate my actions on here than his, because I've done them. His steps toward dealing with his anger and frustration through exercise are closely linked to all of this - the affair took wing at a point where he had sustained a serious injury and was unable to engage with sport - his traditional avenue for all things he struggles to cope with. He is only now able to get back to what he loves. I spotted that part of the affair was driven by risk, and pointed it out to him, he -and his counsellor agree- that much of his sporting enterprise and even his job is about risk, taking risks for the adrenaline high, I think (as do they) that part of the fertile soil for the affair was his blocked access to manageable healthy risk in sport due to injury. Hence I am keen to re-engage him with that. You're also spot on about him not being totally comfortable with marriage and what married life was about when we first wed, he had quite a different vision in his head, was expecting it to be quite different to life pre-wedding, but of course because we already lived together it wasn't hugely different! He owns that his reality did not meet his expectations.
Periodfeatures, you are such a lovely optimist, I do so hope you're right about DH and our future, as honest and experience-informed as the other posts have been it's nice to have someone say "it might all be ok, it's alrigh to hope"
Lois - thank you for that share, I'm sorry you had such a turbulent uncertain time as a child living in what have been a very unhappy home. I'd like to disagree if I may with your idea that once that unspoken barrier is breached a person never comes back from "the dark side": my father was sereally unfaithful for many years, and broke my mother's heart in ways I can't begin to explain here, but they've now been married 30 years and he has been faithful for the past 19, people can unlearn behaviour patterns - granted not all will, but some can and do. You wouldn't meet a happier, more solid partnership than what my parents have now, I'm not aiming to replicate their formula, because it sucked for YEARS, but it gives me the hope I need to keep working with DH.
Cuiller - thanks for the input, I will chase up those books.
Everytone else - thanks for the input, I sort of feel I've covered what you've asked/kindly pointed out in this post, sorry that you have to fish for it a bit.

izchaz - I honestly wish you well, maybe you will prove everyone wrong and it will work, only time will tell.

I worry about your obvious hatred for this lady and your apparent pity for your OH, if this ex-friend was such a man eater why couldn't your man refuse her, you say he is weak not bad - what's the difference, either way a weak man has a bloody good chance of letting you down again, I really hope he doesn't because you sound far too good for him, in all ways. Good luck really.

Nothing wrong with giving it another shot and yes, it's easy for us to sit here with our coffee cups saying LTB, it's a different ball game when you are in that situation.

I jus wonder if you might be better off with someone as articulate and intelligent as what you come across as, I hope your OH can match up for you.