Marrying into a middle class family

[derbyshire]

I'm working class, fairly well educated but sometimes find myself adrift with my MC in-laws. Been married for 15 years, 3 children in primary school. I think most people would say I'm a good mother: BF kids, they're all doing well at school, nice children etc. but often feel I'm just aping the middle-class mores around me.
My ILs don't understand why I'm not more chilled about birthday parties/dinner parties etc but I've never admitted to them that I never had a birthday party when I was young. Certainly no such thing as a dinner party - dinner was something you ate at noon and never in somebody elses's house!
I get so stressed about all those things they find "normal". I've never joined in with the forcing kids to eat veg - my fussy kids eat more veg than my mother! She won't cook for her GC as she said she didn't know how to cook that "stuff" (pasta).
I admit I'm ashamed to admit how much my childhood varies from their upbringing - food really is a class issue!
Strangely enough, educationally I probably outrank them - its all the niceties of life where I'm lacking. Think I'm probably considered "weird" but we never had drinks/socialising at home. I think the gap has become more pronounced as the years have gone on........just find myself struggling more as the years have gone on. Suppose it just feels more and more false.

If you outrank them educationally, then you are ahead of them on the social structure. They don't sound especially middle class, or non-middle class. They sound slightly unworldly and stuck in their ways.

I'd be tempted to give them a copy of Debretts next Christmas, and guide them to the part about putting visitors at their ease.

You do get some families who have done slightly better than their own parents who behave this way. My PIL are a bit like this. When I told them which school I'd gone to, FIL sneered and insinuated that it was a sink school. Ditto the university I went to, while their children went to the local college. When it was the best fee paying school in the country, but they had never heard of it. They eat takeaways and have bbqs while I can't cook because we had someone in, had ponies and went to gymkhanas, yet they still persist with their own middle class fantasy.

The way you describe your inlaws reminds me of mine! Truly classy people are more interested in what you can do than what your parents did.

eh?? I've read my post again... and I genuinely can't see how I'm slagging off the MCs morris ??

I am talking about class differences ie different cultural behaviour; the one not seeing how the other works (or even recognising that two different codes are operating). ime the MC tend to be entirely blind to the fact that another valid culture is operating under their noses. The WC, however, have no choice but to tolerate the MC culture - because it dominates.

I have been fair that there is ignorance on both sides - we're people, ignorance goes across the board, regardless what culture you come from.

ime I wouldn't want to be bound by MC mores. In that sense I am relieved I am WC. As the OP suggests, those rules can be stifling, miserable, rejecting. I am not, however, relieved that I started off with zero hope (and zero money) and a very defeatist, lowly mindset. Not to mention severely restricted opportunities on many levels.

it seems you have had the best of a MC life, morris ie 'privilege' (of a sort - or at least more than someone WC!) but not so much of the numerous constricting 'rules'. But you will have been operating from a set of rules. We all do.

Sorry about the fail jibe - that was low. I meant that you seem to be coming from quite a narrow viewpoint a la fail-esque. Class is complex - it has nothing to do with whether one has a telly or car (or dusty houses). It is about valid - and cherished - cultural rules. The problem for me is that ime the MC do not respect - or even recognise - the glorious, sound, true WC culture; assume it is less-evolved, somehow. That gets my goat.

You said:

'Just like remembering to drive on the right the minute I get off the ferry, I have to remember who I'm talking to - are they MC? or WC? If the latter then, yes, do tell them you're having a crap day when they ask how you are. If the former, God help you if you do tell them the truth - you're supposed to say 'Fine thank you! And how are you?' and expect the same reply of 'Fine'. It's bad form to not be 'fine' when you have so much to be grateful for, when the poor people have nothing. If you moan to someone MC, the best that can happen is that MC people assume you're asking for help/can't cope. it makes for endless misinterpretations and bafflement on both sides and some very irritating and patronising/defensive exchanges .'

This doesn't strike you as quite negative about middle class people? 'God help you if you tell them the truth' - this is a neutral statement in your book?

I'm MC (as I may have mentioned!) and if I ask somebody how they are, I'd like to know how they are. Nobody I'm friends with just says 'fine', they moan and offload just like normal people do. To say that they don't want to hear about your problems or be honest about their own is negative. I'd go as far as to say the 'god help you' line was a bit sneery. I've never felt that irritating or patronising are very positive descriptors either.

If the former, God help you if you do tell them the truth

yah that strikes me as downright nasty - but a throwaway comment about salad creme is 'snobby and sneery'

stifling, miserable, rejecting

glorious, sound, true WC culture

^^good illustrations that the snobbiest people i have ever met have been 'working class'

If your upbringing hasn't provided you with a template on which to develop your social skills, you can always look for other templates. Just because your upbringing didn't teach you something doesn't mean you cannot learn from other sources.

completely baffled by what you are saying tbh morris . I truly can't see how any of the comments I made were negative??

Maybe I'm prising open the can of worms and discussing parts of it - but I don't see that what I am saying is negative.

yes, 'God help you if you tell the truth' is, ime, an apt description of what I found out the hard way - which is, don't tell the truth when you're asked how you are by someone MC. They don't want to hear it; they mean well and are kindly by asking how you are, but, in general, they really aren't prepared for the full autopsy. it is considered bad form to tell it like it is - dumping, or something.

I am simply discussing the differences in culture. I say 'God help you' because it's painful and embarrassing to be viewed in the opposite spirit to the way you intended. 'Sharing' in the WC culture is generally seen as bonding, not dumping.

anyways, generalisations, as I said.

Burberry love, it's not even worth addressing your points.

The disembarking on the ferry thing is to illustrate that you are changing cultures

My point is that the MC don't even recognise there are different cultures operating in one country. I'm sorry to say it, but the MCs generally assume the WC culture is inferior.

That's if they recognise it at all.

(I wish I knew a story like that story of the doctors son who is rushed to hospital with his father after an accident and the surgeon takes one look at the son and exclaims 'My son!' - eg to illustrate sexism; the surgeon is a woman. I wish there was one for class.)

I have felt the same OP but I have no idea what 'class' I am because I'm Canadian. The unspoken social rules in this country are mind-boggling and there has been many a time I've blundered without realising it. My dh helps sometimes but mostly I've just reverted to what I grew up with. Good table manners, politeness, friendliness and enthusiasm tend to go a long way. I have picked up a few things, but only because I like them and I'm still not sure if they're mc or not.
Go with your gut on all things because trying to bend yourself to a silly, outdated and Byzantine system of rules will drive you crazy.
I'll never forget the horror on my boss's face when I opened my Christmas present in front of him before the day. He was so uncomfortable with my effusive thanks and actually gave me a row for not waiting until Christmas day. I had NO idea this was a 'thing'. Baffling.
Good luck OP, tell them to off!

I guess we'll never understand each other then. I've lived and worked amongst MC people all my life and recognise nothing of what you say. I also think it's baffling to say that your comments were not negative, but I can't grasp any common ground for discussing this further.

If people have been rude to you or put you down in the past, then I'm sorry to hear it. I haven't had a charmed life either. We all know what hurt and rejection feel like, we all know how it feels to be treated like crap.

I'd have been aghast at the present opening! Didn't know it was a class thing though :)

Is the present opening a class thing, or a personal thing? I think it's the latter.

They weren't rude to me - or not most of them, anyway. They meant well. But there can the distinct clang of a social faux pas - with attendant [them] 'oh shit how do I get out of this' (embarrassing!). Or, worse, 'how can I help this person'

I'm not suggesting you've had a charmed life morris . And of course we all know what it is to feel hurt and rejected or to be treated like crap. That's just life whether you're an eskimo or the queen of england.

I'm also not making serious complaints, but I am flagging up the differing cultures (labours point). It is galling and miserable to be forced into a culture that isn't yours - which is what the OP is all about. This is my, and her, country ffs. If I lived in Greece I'd expect my culture to come second. I don't take to it so well when it's my own country.

la la la

Burberry love, it's not even worth addressing your points - fab get out clause, love and entirely predictable.

I'll talk to you if you present specific arguments, but not if you hack away. It's boring. Love

sweetheart i offered specific direct quotes from your posts straight back at ya -

"stifling, miserable, rejecting

glorious, sound, true WC culture"

who is the snob here dearie?

And to continue with my soliloquy -

It could be argued that eg the WC telling it like it is could come from a history of being powerless, and bonding over woes. Which became a way of relating and was no longer from a powerless root. And not just talking about woes but life 'like it is' - all out.

It could be argued that the MC keeping a lid on it could come from that MC guilt the (MC) therapist alluded to: we have been blessed by God (Christian country) and we have no right to complain; it is our job to help the poor and needy.

simplistic, but that's how cultures are formed I should've thought.

burberry ! You've repeated your previous post. I heard you the first time. Fill in the gaps, present a decent argument without hacking and sneering and I'll answer you. I can't see what I have to answer with all that jabbing going on.

Dear one

I'm boring myself here

orf I go to make a wedding dress you can't fit through a doorway (let alone get on a coach)

lol is it for you sweetie?
bye, take care, i am sure we would get on swimmingly in real life...

..as long as you didn't serve salad creme...

don't like the stuff personally - but don't tell r ma.

cya

Morris, another name ref I love BTW. Don't you think that lodge gets these distinctions as well as anyone?

Yes, there is social mobility, including downwards. I am on a gentle slide and it's fun. I now eat fish and chips. And have pierced ears. And die my hair.

( ha!)

But I took the deliberate decision to ignore in laws and family and do what I think appropriate for me/ us.

I get pissed off when people despise me or ignore the content of what I say because if background and education.

Lodge is sublime on class (admittedly, I'm biased) and his upwardly mobile oiks are a joy. Vic Wilcox is my favourite.

But Lodge writes with humour, intelligence and compassion. Not judgement, prejudice or cruelty. Nor does he deal in stereotypes.

I totally get that there are cultural differences between MC and WC. But what I don't get is why it's ok to point at the perceived failings of one - but not the other.