Anyone else live with a hoarder?

[WhenSheWasBadSheWasHopeful]

Dh is a lovely man and I am very lucky to have him but the hoarding is driving me crazy.

He has the ability to clutter a room within seconds. When we moved into this house the agreement was the loft room is his to use as he pleases (ie fill with useless shit).
He struggles to throw anything away, is a world class procrastinator and seems to see the value in every bit of tat and random item of paper work imaginable. Any hint that I may organise or heaven forbid throw something away is extremely stressful for him.

What really pisses me off is that if we have people round they must not be allowed upstairs incase they see his ever expanding messy hoard. Why is it ok for me and dd to put up with this but others can't be allowed to see it?

Grrr. Anyway we are making small amounts of progress tidying up and he is even ebaying some stuff.

Is anyone else in the same boat?

Hoarding can be "catching" in the sense it can be learned and absorbed . Not necessarily immediatly either. I'm following the story of one poor guy who "inherited" the hoard when his mother died. He had been living elesewhere, in a non hoarding fashion prior to that.

He has been churning in her home for at least two years now. He's stuck.

I and my sister have gone the other way. She keeps her local charity shop full of top notch stuff in a fairly ruthless but not "off the wall" sort of way. And I have an almost pathological fear of stuff which keeps our local dump in brisk business.

My house will get messy if I'm really busy, and if that happens when I'm feeling vulnerable or insecure I'll hit the fear like a dead wieght hits concrete from a ruddy great height, and start indescriminatly hurling stuff out like it was ...contagious or something.

My husband is pretty good at reading the signs (my haggard face and generally nuerotic flapping) and stepping in to help me sort crap from "good stuff" before I really fly off the handle and leave us in a bare house with one plate each and a shared fork.

Reading other COHs, being somehwere on the range of the two extremes (fear of stuff to the point of over-chucking, hoarding stuff) are pretty normal. It's the nice stable people with a relatively bog standard emotional connection to stuff that are a bit thinner on the ground.

Reading the persepctive of other COH often points to one parent being the hoarder and the other either enabling or giving up in the face of an insurmountable challenge and just sinking into the hoard as a diminshed version of themselves, just beaten down by the tenacity of the resistance. But others also relate a situation where the orginally non hoarding parent ends up with a similar relationship to stuff growing over the years.

I think it hard to predict which way people will go, but easier to predict that there is likely to be some fall out for spouses and offspring, the degree to which is often unknown until the damage is done.

I think the only way the health service can really hope to make an impact in terms of fall out for the sufferer, their family and neighbours etc... is to highlight the visual aid for understanding degree of clutter and give it greater visibility. Then aim to offer early intervention with consistant follow up work to avoid back sliding.

And when there is the money for that, pigs will be airborne and snowshoes will be selling like hot cakes in hell.

Really useful, this thread. Thanks all! I've now realised that I'm not a hoarder. I'm untidy and disorganised because like a PP I was never taught how to tidy up, and the thought of having to organise my stuff fills me with anxiety and a sense of inadequacy, so I give up easily.

I grew up in a massive house which was just full of stuff. I remember it as really dark and in bad repair, partly because of the hoarding. My idea of happiness is a minimalist house with white walls, a few well-chosen things on the walls, and lots of light. The thing is, I seem to be incapable of putting this idea to the task, like there is no connection between the 'think' and the 'act' parts of my brain.

I like the tip of clearing 1 square metre a day. I threw out 2 (!) boot loads full of old books and clothes a few weeks ago and still feel proud of that

carpe, you have a lot of insight and if nothing else, have made me laugh! You write very well. And have made me fantasise about a bare house with one plate and a fork...

Interestingly - I struggle with the idea that things have a 'place' to go. My own parents were/are very messy - and my father is a hoarder. My mother limits this to his study, which you can barely get into.

I think another confusing issue is the way that ideas of thrift and recycling get mixed up with hoarding. Logically, you can argue for many things being kept 'in case' they are needed. And in the past,when I have basically demanded trips to the tip, I've had lectures about 'landfill' etc.

I think I lose perspective sometimes, and think '...yeah, maybe we WILL need that pile of theatre programmes/plastic containers/wood offcuts...'

it is also true that we are very busy and pushed for time workwise. DP ALWAYS uses this as his excuse for not dealing with mess and clutter. For me, it is an argument that we need to keep on top of things as we go along. He agrees - but then does nothing, keeps on dumping stuff in piles on surfaces and in the corners of rooms.

One thing I might try is getting rid of some storage. Lose a wardrobe and a drawer unit or 2. I know a few years ago when I was baffled that there was so much stuff lying around, I thought the answer might be to buy things to put it in. But then they filled up quickly, and still the piles kept growing. I think I ennabled more hoarding by buying things to put it in.

One thing I might try is getting rid of some storage

Careful with that. If the storage goes before the contents does, large piles can form. If the piles slip, spread, fall they can attract more stuff to live on top of them. It can cycle up to the next stage of hoarding by accidentally creating a "temporary" mess that then normalised.

Sometimes it's easier to know where to start and stake a claim to right of chucking. Like the fridge. Yes there might be chuntering about mould being cutoffable and eat by dates being "flexible", but rare is there much of a fight over a very liquid lettuce. Once emptied of crud, made sparkling clean and maintained as a non crowded, hygenic little oasis of calm in the storm it can be a talisman. It creates stark comparison to the chaos, beinging down the "normalisation of the hoard" a notch or ten. When feeling defeated, go stick head in fridge and feel less defenceless.

It doesn't have to be the fridge if the fridge isn't an issue. Maybe a small bathroom, or the kitchen counters, or the sink and draining board, child's bedroom. But it helps if it is a sliver of space where the hygene argument is undeniable to bolster fortitude in the face of high octane resistance.

Maintaining is essential. Before any new slivers are fought for and won, the already won places have to evolve into something that gets the attention it needs as a priority on a several times a week basis. Becuase they are the beacons that say it can be done, things can change and brace the backbone for more empire building.

Boy can you tell I come from a military background

That bit is optional, see it as building a "garden of blossoming lifestyle" where precleared ground is nurtured into bloom and the weeds kept on top of,..or anything else that appeals personally.

I think as a place to start the above has an advantage over more drastic measures. The Hoard didn't appear overnight, and all that it represents won't be vanquished at the speed of light, but becuase it is a long, hard, slow slog, those little bugeoning Oasises can really help with the helplessness, powerlessness and ...knackeredness. It doesn't really matter if you are the kid, the spouse or the person struggling with hoarding.

Making little shiney spots of hope for something better in the home and making their maintence the priority goes qute a long way as a boost to morale and feeds the spark of working towards something better for everybody.

My mum leaves bulky stuff, like furniture she's been given/ inherited, stacked up in weird places like the narrow corridor between doors to living and dining room and stairs, and she has precarious piles of papers on all table surfaces

Biscuits, are you me?? This describes my DM to a tee. She wouldn't let me in her last flat for 11 years (yes, eleven) because it was apparently full of piles of newspapers with narrow passageways for her to get through. She took about 8 months to finally clear the place out because she had to move, and she would NOT accept ANY help from anyone. Her new flat was so lovely and clear for a while, but it's starting all over again - she's acquired this massive chest of drawers from somewhere and put it in the hall jutting out over two separate doorways. I thought at first it was a temporary place for it but nope, it appears that's its home now.

I am full of hoarding tendencies too and hate myself for it. I don't really have emotional attachment to bits of crap, I just can't seem to find the TIME to clear stuff out. I have little piles of stuff all over the place too and it drives (tidy) DP up the wall. It's hard to explain, but I never feel I have the time to tidy one pile as I've always got so much else to do. I never feel that anything in the house is ever "finished" and things like laundry for 3 DC utterly overwhelms me. I hate sorting out socks with a passion. I am gradually getting better and I think if I didn't have the DC and just be 'firefighting' all the time I would be in a better place, tidy-wise. I just get so so tired in the evenings and can't motivate myself to get up and clear things.

I was never taught or encouraged to tidy my room or anything as a child and while I'm not looking for pity , it is very hard to acquire habits I know nothing about. I can stand and stare at a pile of bits of paper and I have literally no idea what to do with it. No idea where to put things. And if I do designate a drawer for a certain category of paper, it turns out to be too specific or too broad or too random a category and I can't find anything again. My filing cabinet is full. I don't know what to do with worn-once clothes. My A4 files are full. I have loads of kitchen cupboards but I know things are in totally the wrong places and I don't know how to fix it. Long boxes of breadsticks lying on their sides preventing cupboard doors from closing. I know it's not right but have no idea what to do instead. And don't have any time to find out.

God that was long, and I know it sounds self-indulgent. I've just tried so many things that don't work, to get better.

and I know it sounds self-indulgent

It's not love. What you are describing is very very very common amoung children of hoarders.

There is much to unlearn before relearning can start which makes it harder. Habit forming is a real slog when your all gorwn up and having to take a completely different approach compared to what you are used to.

What people tend to find hardest is the maintence. If you learned to churn, you can feed into that skill in order to revamp, shift, sift and reorganise (after a certain fashion), but the concept of regular maintence is a closed book when all you've ever known is big crisis related attacks and then...backsliding.

And now I am going to have to go to the kitchen and reprganise my cupboards becuase I know what you mean and I've gone all itchy cos I know I am only a week or five away from stuff being unfindable or sliding out and landing on the floor when I try to get stuff in or out.

See you in three binbags time.

I started this thread thinking about the impact the hoarding has on me (very selfish).

Now I am worried about the effect on my kids, 2nd due in Oct, I don't want them to grow up embarrassed by the hoard. Dp is very proud and hates people seeing the mess, I'm sure his solution would be just don't invite people round. That's just not fair on them.
Also I want them to grow up knowing how to tidy up and clean, it's obvious that growing up with a hoarder has a massive impact for decades I don't want that for my kids.

Oh and carpe pigs will be airborne

I'm thinking about effects on the dcs now too.

I have 2 boys and am determined that they will grow up to be able to look after themselves, their living environment, their clothes and NOT be a nightmare domestic partner for the women (or men) they live with. And they won't learn how to tidy and clean if they don't see it happening. And they will grow up thinking that being surrounded by mounds and heaps of homeless crap is normal. As is not having people round to socialise because the house is something to be ashamed of.

Lordy - it's more than just mess, isn't it. Thanks for your post again Carpe. Lots to think about there.

Both DM & DF are hoarders in different ways, DF keeps all bits of paper, letters, magazines and well as anything that might come in handy for DIY (he doesn't do DIY but that's really a different problem! he also goes into skips when he sees things that might be useful one day) and DM hoards things she wants to give as gifts, both new stuff and good quality second hand stuff (this doesn't sound too bad... but before I was even pregnant or thinking of being with DD she had almost 5 big laundry style bags of stuff for a little girl, just in case). Their house is a nightmare, although it's not (yet) quite like the houses you see on hoarding programs. DF's problem only really got out of hand when he retired, if anything of his is thrown away he threatens, can get violent, of threatens to commit suicide (one previous serious attempt). DM can't see that she has a problem at all as she's 'just trying to be generous'. She blames all their house mess of DF despite the fact there is an entire ex-bedroom of present stuff as well as overspill into the other bedrooms.

I guess if I was trying to think of reasons for their behaviour - DF was born before the war and remembers having nothing as a child, especially as his DF walked out on his DM and him & his brothers. DM's problem is because her DM was stingy to the point of nastiness with her and she's determined not to be the same? I don't know really - just conjecture.

If you're looking for a bright side - there has to be one! - it's that a visit to their house always makes me do a vicious declutter of my own house! I have collecting/hoarding tendencies and I'm able to keep a very tight control on it because I'm scared of ending up like them.

NightmareWalking Those are exactly the kind of reasons given for the TV hoarders' problems.

Reading this thread with interest. I'm not a full-on hoarder, but the potential is there. I recognise a lot of myself in what AuroraAlfresco wrote.

I think I have a foot in both worlds, in that I do have the little piles of Stuff everywhere that I don't really know what to do with, and I do get very emotionally attached to things; it's not awful and it's certainly not taking over the house, but I have clothes that are 20 years old that I'll never wear again but that I can't bear to get rid of, and I have a large binder stuffed full of ticket stubs from films, play, concerts, travel and so on that I would be devastated to lose. I have folders full of things I wrote when I was young - too embarrassing ever to read but if I threw them away I feel I'd be severing a link to the young, hopeful me, full of energy and imagination.
Every storage unit in the house is rammed and disorganised and I never have more than a vague idea where to start looking for things when I need them.

On the other hand, I have occasional fits of de-cluttering. They're rare, but when I do it, I feel great. I gave 20 black bags to Cash 4 Clothes last year, and it felt WONDERFUL.

One thing I do know is that the Stuff builds up and seems insurmountable when other things are bothering me. It's a symptom. When everything's going swimmingly, I am perfectly able to get stuck in to things.

It seems to me primary hoarders are the ones in denial who have a psychological reason for hanging on to stuff and get extremely anxious being parted from their things. The rest of us are the secondary hoarders who grew up with it and never learned good habits but are not as stressed by letting things go. For me the Fly Lady website was an excellent training to run a house efficiently. Also I have an army friend who has ruthlessly taught me that everything has a place to go and should be put away in it! I am now in control of my stuff but struggling to manage DPs family who are still in denial. And as for my DPs... aaargh

Why don't you all just row stuff away?

Ahahahaha!

Because hoarders are manic OCDers at heart and believe me they know when there's two screws out of a box of 100 missing or something's been slightly moved to he left.

I lived with a hoarder for 7 years.
There's no hope for them. Possessions become more important than people, even their own children.

I think you're absolutely spot on there JazzDalek, it is a symptom not a disease in itself.

My DM is a hoarder, and I did have hoarding tendencies but am - I think - over them, mainly down to two and a half years of therapy. (in which I never mentioned it, but sorted out the underlying problems).

The most striking thing that I've ever heard said about hoarders is that they are sometimes burying memories (or objects which trigger memories) under their sea of clutter. Not true for everyone, but definitely true of my mother. And it goes some way to explain why you can't deal with the hoarding until you've come to terms with the underlying problem.

Yes but have no advice.

DH collects 'things' ( ie cameras) which all in in metal boxes in spare bedroom but are never ever used.

On a more basic level he will hoard old clothes for using when decorating etc- but instead of having just 1 pair ( or 2) of old jeans or T shirts etc he will have 3, or 4. He also hoards paperwork because he can't get organised enough to read. file, or discard on the same day/week.

I do throw things out which I am 100% sure he will never need or use again but he does get a bit upset for a few minutes.

Thinking about what Aurora said about her mum having the hallway cleared and then filling it with a huge chest of drawers so she had to squeeze past it again...

I wonder if there is a physical thing about needing to feel enclosed, protected almost by stuff. I am recovering from agoraphobia, which for me was mainly about fearing being around other people who might judge me or even just speaking to me because I was anxious and awkward and didn't know what to say.

But I found that if I went outside, after staying at home for a long period of time, I found the sheer space outside overwhelming, it was too bright, everything seemed too far away to get to, etc. This wasn't the original fear that kept me indoors, I think it was as a result of spending so much time indoors, near to things, etc. I'd gotten used to it.

Before, when I went out with my DH, I used to walk just behind him a little, like... if you were on top of a high building, you'd want there to be a barrier, to stop you falling into the space. It felt like that. Even now, I feel somewhat protected if I'm pushing DS in his pram, or pushing a shopping trolley, and a bit exposed if not (though I understand that I have to let myself feel a bit uncomfortable, in order to get used to it again and recover).

Maybe Aurora's mum was so used to squeezing through her hallway that she had to recreate it to feel safe when the other stuff was gone?

Soup Dragon
I think telling a hoarder to tidy up is like telling someone with depression to cheer up.

Yes, and neither are helpful or constructive comments because if they could do those things there wouldn't be a problem. However, just like with depression, if a person is suffering from a condition which is causing them to lash out at others or make life difficult for the people they live with and are refusing professional help to recover, those adults affected by it have to decide whether they can/should live with things the way they are or leave. It is often said on these boards that it is possible to be depressed and abusive and/or addicted and abusive - one doesn't need to live with abuse just because the person is suffering from a condition.

I certainly have a lot of compassion for those afflicted with hoarding tendancies, but wanting to keep stuff isn't an excuse to be rude, controlling and abusive of the people around them. If it is affecting them that much they should seek/accept help or risk losing their relationships.

Not sure where we are going with the 'it's not an excuse for bad behaviour' thing. I mean - no, of course not. But isn't there a difference between a depressed person being difficult to talk to, and someone with no mental health problems being arrogant and aloof? Someone with agoraphobia not wanting to leave the house and do things is different from someone just being lazy, isn't it?

Spiritedwolf, if someone had threatened to leave you because you had agoraphobia and would not accept it, or sort it out, would you have found that helpful? Serious question - perhaps it was what set you on the path to recovery?

And these 'underlying causes' - what do you do if the hoarder will not acknowledge their problem, or get professional help?

Re: my father - I have no idea what might cause him to hoard, but I do know that he lives in a sort of fantasy world in terms of him using stuff. He has a huge number of books that he claims he will re-read. They sit on shelves under layers of dust. If anyone borrows one or moves one, he asks them repeatedly where it is and when they will return it. I borrowed a book of his and kept it for about a year. The first thing he asked me every time he saw me was 'have you finished with x book yet?' And when I eventually returned it - HE HAD BOUGHT ANOTHER BRAND NEW COPY OF THE BOOK TO REPLACE THE ONE I HAD BORROWED. I was standing there, book in hand, looking stupidly at the space where the book had been taken from, staring at an identical copy of the same book. Couldn't believe it.

I also bought him a cd player after a health scare a few years back. Doctor said he needed to find more time to relax etc, and my father claimed to like. listening to music (I don't recall him ever having listening to music when I was growing up, or thereafter, but there you go). He was grateful for the cd player and two classical cds I got him - then the cd player was placed carefully on a high shelf, the cord removed and placed in a drawer and the cds put in a shelf. Never used. But when I ask him about it - if they aren't being used, can they go to charity, or the tip, and I could get him something else? He insists he DOES use it. I point out that it is covered in dust and the items on top of it have not been moved to my certain knowledge for two years. He flies into a tantrum - 'SHUT UP! THESE ARE MY THINGS, LEAVE THEM ALONE, JUST SHUT UP!'

I wonder if he thinks he 'uses' all of the books and papers and tubs and boxes of pencils he has in his room. Some of them are decades old.

I think the person who upthread has said about realising that everything should have a place has helped me realise the same, I think I'll bear that in mind the next time I move something from one place to another - where should it go? Make a proper home for it or let it go.

When there are memories attached to something that you don't otherwise want to keep/have room for, try taking a photo of it and letting go of the object. Of course you might end up with a harddrive full but at least it'll take up less room.

Jeans, i think it is often said elsewhere on MN that someone with depression who refuses to address it at the expense of their family loses their right to sympathy.

Their rights do not trump the rights of others.

What a legacy for children .. Second generation hoarding, kids ashamed to bring friends home , daughters taking parents plus hoard into their homes as they have lost theirs.

It simply isn't fair to expect that of family. Deeply unfair. And enabling isn't helpful whatever the issue, whether depression, alcoholism, hoarding, whatever.

My heart goes out to those who hoard and those who are affected by it. But I'm afraid I would say, let them get angry. Sometimes the people they live with must feel pretty angry too.

Ther is no wat I could live with someone like this.. I would go insane.

I certainly have a lot of compassion for those afflicted with hoarding tendancies, but wanting to keep stuff isn't an excuse to be rude, controlling and abusive of the people around them. If it is affecting them that much they should seek/accept help or risk losing their relationships.

Except first they need to accept there is a problem.

I agree onefewernow. My dads hoarding made him miserable trapped and lonely, but he wouldn't get help. I then suffered after he died and I had to deal with a complete shambles while bereaved. It wasn't a pleasant legacy, and while I do sympathise with people with hoarding problems, it's not something I would personally tolerate, and leaving it untreated is unfair on the extended family and subsequent generations who are also affected.

But I'm afraid I would say, let them get angry. Sometimes the people they live with must feel pretty angry too

Yes. But it's hard to handle the anger, the pain and the anxiety of a person afflicted by hoarding on a "quid pro quo" basis. I don't know how to explain it, but it sort of seems to work its way around to causing appeasment, guilt and ...fear. Egg shell walking re the hoard can become normal. Becuase the outcry and upset caused by even the tinest assult on the hoard is very raw and intense. And I guess becuase they need to constantly battle opposition in order to "protect" the hoard, people can become manipulative out of ...(from their perspective) ... necessity.

Which is why I think so many family members end up feeling responsible for what they see as a sufferer who is then viewed as very dependant and needing of support not more pain or stress. It's like a sort of vicous cycle.

I don't think anybody sets out to enable. I know I didn't. It sort of sneaks up on you and one day you realise that the hoard has more "human rights" than you do.

You are of less value than a musty heap of 70s Family Circle.