Moving from being the OW to being his girlfriend...

[beingmyself]

I've got my flameproof suit on and will start by saying I know being in an affair is a selfish and cruel thing to do. I did it. He did it. We decided we wanted to be together so after having an affair for several months we both left our spouses. He has moved out and so has my h.
We are not living together though and are not intending to for a while. We are also still secret and will remain so for some time.

Is anyone who has been there brave enough to come and talk to me about the highs and lows of finally getting to be together? I knew it would continue to be a rollercoaster and would really appreciate anyone who's willing to talk about it with me to do so here or to PM me!

Thanks

More straw men.

Especially since I largely agree with you Lying- and have on a recent thread- that there is not enough listening any more on Mumsnet and too many ridiculous 'once a cheater' kneejerk responses. Not once have I personally written anything like that. I do however believe that two people who have lied for months while having an affair and intend to go on lying are not addressing the attitudes and behaviour that led to them cheating in the first place. But as I also pointed out upthread, I don't assume that everyone who's left for an OW/OM is like that.

Where I profoundly disagree with you is that lying about the existence of an overlapping relationship is the right course of action. This is based on never encountering a single person whose marriage has broken up, who wouldn't have wanted to know about the existence of a third party. At least one poster on this thread who has recently had this happen to her, explains what many others have every week on Mumsnet; why knowing helps.

I do find it odd when true neutrals can't see that. I find it less odd if people have a 'don't tell' view because that's precisely what they did.

This thread was upsetting the OP of another thread, who is devastated about her husband leaving extremely suddenly just as his daughter was about to sit her GCSEs. Despite the existence of E mails between him and another woman, he is insisting that no-one's involved. That OP was appalled to read this thread and the views that upheld her husband's right to lie to her. I suggested it was likely that some of the people espousing that view had been party to exactly the same behaviour and I don't regret that for one minute. At no point did I say that any of you with these views were definitely secret harbourers, nor have I ever said anything about 'karma' or 'once a cheater' or any of that bollocks.

On any thread ever.

Fair enough Leavenheath.

I've been giving this some thought, specifically around why I hold the view that knowing details once the relationship has ended would be superfluous for me yet perhaps not for other people. I've come to the conclusion that it's because of what I alluded to in my earlier post - the concept of 'blame'.

Even though my ex conducted himself really poorly, was very hurtful in his actions and there was an OW; when he told finally told me (what I already knew) that we couldn't keep going on this way, he didn't blame me for my part in the relationship breakdown. He never did this actually, the non-blame thing was a big part of the attraction for me as I was surrounded by people when I was growing up who always needed to attach blame somewhere, anywhere...

Perhaps I should be more vitriolic towards him, but I can't. I just don't feel that way. He's a decent person and I actually think that most people are decent inside, even when they make awful decisions or bad mistakes. It's the response to those which is all important for me.

In the circumstances you describe - overlap of relationship, with all the mess and deflection that can bring if a partner doesn't disclose AND does the usual trying to attribute responsibility for the affair to the non-cheating partner; I'd probably feel exactly as you describe. It just goes to show that each person's experience is different and a slight variation can lead to a completely different result.

Maybe I'm just too shallow to focus on the actions of other people? I can't give them headspace (the actions) once they've been resolved and whilst I don't forget, I do forgive. Perhaps that is because to not do so would cause me pain that I just don't want?

It is really interesting to read the views of others and I do acknowledge that you don't trot out the platitudes. There are plenty of posters who do - and they're entitled to do just that - but I think it's not very healthy the way some people focus on wishing the 'downfall' or 'retribution' towards somebody who meant something to them; somebody they often still have close links to because of children, family, etc.

I truly feel for the OP as she has a hard slog in front of her and she may never know what it is like to have an unencumbered relationship with her now/new partner. Relationships are absolutely fraught with uncertainty and there are just no guarantees of anything. I hope that if my husband and I ever split, we will be honest with one another and work hard on the split to make it as 'good' as it can be. Idealistic? Certainly. Possible? Maybe... I'd like to think so.

Thanks- and I have been thinking about this too.

I completely agreed with your post that infidelity doesn't tell you very much at all (if anything) about your relationship. But it tells you something about the person who was unfaithful- and who chose that course of action instead of others. As I said upthread, if that disclosure is accompanied with no blame apportioned to the person left behind (as you say occurred in your own break-up) then there's more chance of a person being able to move on and not attach any blame to herself.

Unfortunately as we see all the time on here and in real-life, departing spouses very often do apportion blame, whether they admit to an affair or not. And the ones left behind are far more likely to blame themselves if either their former partners are dishing out the blame or are claiming that the relationship has become untenable despite no-one else being involved.

If you know someone else is involved, in the best of circumstances a person can move on and acknowledge that it would have been an impossible feat to compete with the pull of a new exciting relationship and that it wasn't necessarily a reflection of the old relationship or the former partner. If on the other hand the relationship had been very unhappy and this was in the open domain, some people can look beyond the hurt pride and anger about the deception and recognise that the relationship would have ended anyway. Sharing the responsibility for the breakdown in a relationship- if that breakdown had been previously openly acknowledged- is different to taking erroneous responsibility for someone's decision to have an affair, after all.

I suspect one of the reasons that people 'don't tell' is because they don't want their exes to focus on the affair to the exclusion of the problems that were evident and openly acknowledged in the relationship. So they want to keep the moral high ground and public image of the long-suffering spouse who'd tried everything to rescue the marriage and has now run out of steam. Any challenge to that martyr status would be uncomfortable, especially if others knew of the struggles and were supportive of the person leaving the relationship.

But that's not fair either. And it's not truthful or plausible to blame one person for every bit of bad behaviour in a marriage that has failed.

It's far more dignified in my view and far better for a good future co-parenting relatonship if a person can say 'we were both at fault in this marriage, but I was wrong to lie to you and have an affair with someone else before I left. I apologise for that'.

I must stress this only applies to situations where there have been openly discussed problems in the marriage. As I suggested upthread, it's a different conversation entirely if no grievances or problems have ever even been raised.

Reading both your responses here , Leaven and Lying, surely the obvious answer to all of this is that every person and every couple has different needs?

I don't often pop onto the Relationships forum too much these days partly because I used to, and got tired of the platitudes, cliches, holier-than-thou and purely vitriolic posts from the quite a number of posters.

I am sure that this forum works well for some posters. BUT what strikes me is that the 'advice' trotted out here is more about posters' opinions ( and strongly held ones at that) than what is best for the OP AND ( to get to the point at last) is a million miles removed from counselling which is completely non judgemental and throws the ball firmly into the client's court: 'what would work for you' they ask.

I think it's highly dangerous for anyone who is not qualified, to label people and their behaviour ( sociophobic, narcisstic, passive aggressive, to name just some of the favourites) based on a quick google.

What worked for you may not work for anyone else - or another couple. And to advise as if it would is not terribly helpful.

That's what I think, anyway!

It's not our remit to be counsellors. If anyone said that they were, there's a warning on the top of the page that people might not be what they seem. In fact this is something that I often point out on threads. People aren't necessarily what they seem.

It's an internet forum, not a counselling room. People can offer what opinions, advice and judgement as they see fit. I think it often helps an OP if a respondent discloses why they hold a particular view, but it's not mandatory and in any case, not everyone tells the truth as I've pointed out on this and other threads. So best to keep an open mind, especially if it's an unusual or minority opinion that's at odds with what a lot of other posters are saying.

When trying to reference why I personally believe it's better for people to know about the existence of an overlapping relationship, I've referred to the shared experience that is Mumsnet and the plethora of threads we've all seen where posters say they'd rather know. My rational brain tells me that there are too many of them all saying the same thing in different ways, for it not to be their truth. Plus this reference point is something that all posters can access, in a way that they cannot if just one poster came on to talk about a friend or relative's situation and what worked for them.

As I haven't mentioned anything about my own relationship, I'm not sure who you are referring to when you say What worked for you may not work for anyone else but if it's Lying I think it's very helpful to read that she valued the fact that her ex partner refused to blame her. That shared experience seems highly pertinent to the thread.

FWIW I agree with you that it's impossible to diagnose any condition on the internet and that this maxim applies to learning disabilities and general health queries as well as personality disorders. But it's sometimes helpful if a poster says 'have you thought about...?' and suggests that the OP takes it up with a professional if they are minded to investigate further. It bothers me though if posters say 'I'm an expert/qualified in x, y or z and I think you should consider b' because that gives a false and unverifiable validity to their suggestions. But it's up to posters to read the guidelines too and accept that what people say they are, might not be the case.

To go back to basics of the OP's first post, I'd offer this advice. Be certain and consistent, even when you're not sure. It's the wavering and indecision that breaks people's hearts and wastes their time. Try and encourage detachment but support for the injured party but never give them false hope of return or 'fall back into bed with them' as a result of being used to having both options. Do not want to be liked so much you are prepared to flit between them. Do not punish them in any way for your wrong. If they need to hate you, let them. Anger is a powerful protector.

Go straight into counselling with the new partner. There are going to be massive and painful bumps along the way, particularly for the first few years and managing them is hard. Be honest, but don't torture each other with thoughts of regret and memories of the other party. Keep some of yourself sacred, to grieve and respect the person you loved enough to marry.

Bear in mind others will gossip and speak badly of you, extended families will pick sides and play games. Only think of the children. Your reputation is not important.

Try and be a team, but bear in mind you don't actually know each other very well yet. No affair has two whole people in it. Prepare to be shocked and even disappointed. Try and laugh about it.

Encourage trust and deal firmly and honestly with why you had the affair in the first place. Do not hide behind the idea of unmet needs. You will have unmet needs in this one too.

Life has an inherent sadness in it somewhere. Before you believed it was because you were not with each other. Now you may find it is because you are. Learn from it.
Eventually, forgive yourself.

tessa6 a really, really balanced and thoughtful post.

leaven

On most points I agree with you. In fact I was one of a number of MNs who was proactive, a few years back, in suggesting to MNHQ ( off forum) they have the disclaimer at the top of this forum ( about posters not being qualified.)

I wasn't directing my post at you- I used the word 'you' rather than 'one'.

It's worth bearing in mind that 90% of posters here are women. What women want may not be what men want- and this thread was about whether a man ought to know. IME of REAL LIFE experiences ( not mine, but friends and family) of this, some men ( or women) may want to know, but equally some may not. Each couple is different. That's why on balance it's questionable whether (IMO) advising on the basis of what worked for 'you' ( the poster) as you are not the OP or in their marriage etc.

I think it is perfectly valid to recount experiences - which may be helpful or maybe not- but to say 'this worked for me so it's what you must do' is not right.

I think it was parttimer79, who said that not being honest with the world would make things difficult years down the line.

Now I come from this as the wife of a man whose ex cheated on him, but never admitted it. She was adamant that they were just friends and someone she talked to occassionally for advice. What the ex didn't know was that my DH had found her inbox open on the PC and read all the sordid exchanges. So my DH confronted his ex and she lied and he divorced her. To this day she will swear blind nothing was going on. DH never called her out on why he knew she was lying for sake of their son but it did not sit well!

They divorced, and the settlement took ages, years in fact. The ex had to pretend that her lover was not living with her, the 3 nights a week rule. She needed the money from my ex, and I can see why she had 3 kids to support (2 from another relationship) but my DH refused to give in and would always maintain they had been in a relationship from the beginning and had been living together. DSS confirmed as much to him. So the ex had to keep her finances totally separate, pay for every bill herself for years. DH thought the new bloke was a sponger and dishonest for not committing to his ex.

DH was was living on a sofa bed and just wanted the settlement to be fair. The ex not being able to admit to the world what was plain to see, really ruined any chance of anything amicable. They were a couple and they continued to live a lie (FOR 3 YEARS!)

Before the settlement was finalised DH met and married me. We were honest from the start even if it did affect the settlement outcome. We did not want to lie or wait to start our life together. I can only imagine how awful it must have been for her. Waiting for the settlement to be over to finally come clean with the relationship. Then you have to witness your ex get married.

Finally a month before the 2nd hearing the ex confessed to the relationship and DH was geniunely happy for her that the new bloke was willing to settle down with her. The settlement was resolved and 2 months after that the ex got married.

Now DSS was young at the time of separation and had no clue. He is always asking his dad questions about his mum/dads relationship and his stepfather, like he was mums friend who moved in when you left home. DH feels rubbish in having to lie about everything, feels like he has been made to be the one who abandoned them. He also wants to ask about how we both met so we tell him. How on earth the ex answers these questions I have no idea. And of course there is always the chance that DSS will realise the truth one day, and how he reacts to that?

Hi OP if you are prepared to live a lie for sake of your ex then please think carefully about your kids. They grow up and ask questions, they are clever and come to conclusions.

If my ex wife had an affair when we were married I wouldn't want to know. Looking back she probably was, I don't want to know.

Our children wouldn't need to know.

She's been with her partner six years, good for her now she's happier.

We're amicable, if I'd have found out she'd been having an affair it would have made that difficult, and now down the line doesn't make any difference, the marriage was dead.

Thanks tessa.

Thank you as well for the many and advice filled and supportive PMs. I will reply but manic with DC!

Have been reading every post in detail and following the thread carefully too. It is making me think about whether we should just tell everyone. As I said before my h is happy about the separation anyway so he's not wondering "why"... But I think my new partner's wife may be and I do feel sympathy for that. I will talk to him about it

My main worry is that his w has already started to 'use' the children and I fear this would just get worse if she knew their dad was with someone else in a happy relationship. I know many of you will scoff but I am genuinely thinking about the children here. I'm sure their mum is a great parent and obviously I know what she is going through must be awful but she projects every emotion she has onto the kids (both under 5yrs) and I can only see this getting worse if she knew the full truth. As it was their marriage had been bad for a long while (by her admission too) so it coming to an end without her knowing about me isn't the biggest shock in the world.

I think what I mean is that if I were in her shoes I wouldn't understand why even though things were awful, my husband didn't even want to try counselling or something. However she was EA to him and as MNet always seems to advise, tha is a deal breaker. He did try to talk to her many times about it but was always met with silence or "if you really loved being with me you wouldn't need to see your friends" etc

What you have been told about his relationship with his ex is only what you have been told. I would counsel against taking it as truth. As you know yourself, a marriage is a mysterious thing. You are making decisions based on assumptions about other people, but then I think you are making life choices based on all sorts of assumptions. You do not know the truth about his ex wife. You really don't.

She probably suspects there is another woman. I think men rarely leave without the prompt of another woman. So, you are probably not being as discreet as you think.

His friends??

Op. i went from being the OW. he was not married or cohabiting but we were still cheating. it did me a lot of damage. and I was paranoid. However, he was a serial cheater and abusive and I was foolish. I did worry a lot about what he was up to and it was destructive. as far as I know he actually did not cheat.

I have a friend who left her failing relationship for the OM. they struggled for a few years because she had trust issues but they got through them and are now married and happy.
However she did lie to her x when he asked her straight out. lied repeatedly and that did a lot of damage.

i would say and this is a personal opinion, don't tell your h is he is not looking for reasons. he gains nothing by you telling him. arguably you gain more by getting it off your chest.
but do not lie if he straight out asks you now or in the future when you go public as to do so is extremely insulting when some one already knows. it will damage you co parenting rs.

i would caution though beware the unfaithful man who claims his wife is abusive. she may be but that is also.precisely what an abusive man would say....and he is the one who had an affair...

brace yourself to bale if he turns out not to be that he seemed. don't do what i did and stay to punish yourself because of the way you got together.

what is done is done. i hope all parties can work this out in way that is best for the dcs who it must be remembered were given no voice in this at all. the main thing is that they must beunderstand is that although adults make choices that affect them, they are never to blame. because kids do blame themselves when things go wrong.

How do you know so much about his wife? Do you know her on a personal level?

IMO I think you should be careful about putting all of your eggs in one basket. Not to piss on your parade but I suppose it's in your best interest to stay in the dark. When infidelity is thrown into the mix, some marriages/relationships are completely dead but others are easier to repair (as the problems that needed addressing are all out in the open.)

You only know for sure about your own relationship - everything else is just what he wants you to know/think. Keep your wits about you - blind trust in your situation (OW/OM) is not really an option, is it x

being there is a big difference between knowing a relationship is going badly and being prepared for it to end. I don't mean to be patronising but you really have no idea what his ex is thinking.
I have no idea, even after some years, how DPs ex felt or what went on in the marriage pre breakdown from her perspective.

Also what looks like "using the kids" may be the adjustment of having to learn to co-parent when you were not expecting this, you need to step back from that and leave them to it and this will give you the chance to work on co-parenting with your ex (if that is relevant to you).

I really wish someone had said to me, this will be really difficult and shitty but concentrate on your own relationship and don't spend so much time obsessing over his ex and what is going on with her as you will never know! So I'm saying it to you

btw tessa6 great post

How do you know the ex of your lover was emotionally abusive? It's easier to say this, but if you're not in that relationship, you really don't know. For the past couple of years, every single time I have asked my husband to help like doing washing up, hoovering etc, he has screamed back to me that I am a bully, this has really shocked me, it's effectively claiming I'm emotionally abusive towards him and he's told his parents this - what he didn't tell his parents was that he beat me up, put me down with his words of criticism, everything he did in the last couple of years has been with complete disregard for his family. So his parents now have the impression I am emotionally abusive and he thinks I am because I dare to ask him to contribute help with the housework. So be careful to take "sides" and be careful you think the ex of your lover is using the children, try instead if possible to put yourself in that ex's position and imagine how she is currently coping. I'm guessing her husband is no longer in the house, suddenly everything lies on her shoulders, from the practical to emotional, add on to that the trauma the children will be going through to have lost a parent from their home.

As for the X wife, you need to have a bit less acceptance of his picture of her and a lot more sympathy for her pain. This 'using the kids' thing is, as others have said above, maybe a combination of fury, compassion for them and fear and confusion about the change that has just happened. For a man to marry someone, have kids with them and then up and leave without intense attempts to try is a betrayal of his vows and her expectations. She is going to flounder for a long time. It is possible that anger with his lies and infidelity would help her detach from him and get on with her life, but yes would almost certainly deteriorate their co-parenting relationship further.

As much as I hate to say it, there are occasions where the damage done by admitting to an affair after the fact have been detrimental to everyone involved. It depends what her perspective is and what she needs right now. Your new partner will not be able to see any of this objectively and will cast everyone and everything as rationalising the decisions he's made.

Of course she was annoyed about him going out and seeing his friends all the time. He was having an affair. She was being betrayed and lied to and made to feel crazy. Of course the marriage had not been good for a while. He was neglecting her and HAVING AN AFFAIR and looking for a way out.

Your concern for the children is understandable and not without basis. But own your choice to break apart this family. Concern for the children was not enough to cease embarking on the affair, so it is always a toss up in these situations. It can still all be okay, and the children can absolutely get through it and thrive. Ultimately it is your DH's choice about whether he comes clean and of course his tendency will be not to, to protect his sense of self and reputation. The 'noble' thing to do would be to tell the truth and face the consequences but actually the practical thing to do may be not to, in the hope of long term better relations within which to raise these children.

Bit worried about your description of her as 'EA'. Of course this may be true but you seem awfully accepting of a rather cliched explanation for his infidelity and leaving when there are no real concrete examples of this you've given except her not wanting him to go out so much (when he was actually having an affair) and concerns about the children (phrased as 'using the children' in a way that's vague and may be unfair). You may well find she is eminently reasonable, OP, and that he is flexible with the truth to justify what he wants. If that is the case it might be useful for him to have to face the consequences of what he has done fully and be honest with everyone, and you might find it better and more healthy for you to be allowed to be out in the open and have channels of communication with who you need to.

I got together with (now) dh when his previous marriage was in its dying throws. It was a long distance relationship - at the time I lived over 200 miles away. Ours was a friendship which developed into something more.

He and his wife (who I had got to know through him) did try relationship counselling for a while - but (according to him) she was only interested in "how to stay together" rather than exploring "what was best for both of them - including the possibility of amicably splitting up".

I'm not sure she ever knew that our relationship actually overlapped the end of their marriage. She knew we were friends and that we got together (officially) shortly after they formally separated.

Ironically, in the early days, most of the arguments that dh and I had were where I was taking his wife's side and telling him that she was being reasonable in the circumstances. I was always careful never to bad mouth her.

Fortunately, there were no children involved. One of the reasons that they split up was that she was pressurising him to have kids and he wasn't ready.

Dh also went to counselling for a while on his own as he was going through the separation.

Dh and I got married about 5 years later and have now been married 15 years. We have gone through major problems but have stuck together. One thing I have never worried about is him cheating on me.

Please tell me you have considered carefully why it is better to keep your relationship a secret still. I speak as someone who spent years "wondering why" - I know I would rather have the pain upfront, and see the logic of why I was left, rather than spend years unable to rest because I don't understand why it happened and continually searching for the reasons within myself. I really do believe honesty is the best policy, far less painful long term, easier to move on from. Please bear in mind no matter what the state of the relationships you left, it is far easier to be cushioned by the excitement of new love than it is to be left lonely and confused. Think of the functional co-parenting relationships you should now be aiming for with your ex partners and how important honesty and respect will be in making those work. Good luck.