not sure what she wants

[damnit1]

Ok, I have read quite a few threads from guys moaning about their wives, but I am going to and another anyway.

First of all.... I love my wife more than anything and would/do anything for her. The problem is I quite often feel taken for granted, like I will always just be there. I also feel that she is just with me because I offer some stability. She says she loves me, but I feel we are drifting apart.
She never talks to me and the only time I find stuff out about her is when she talks to her friends.
I will often ask her what has happened in her week, but she will often just reply "not much, "just the usual". I try to spark up a conversation or have some fun but she rarely wants to engage. However, this is quite different if someone else does this.
I will often ask her if everything is ok, or , is she happy and she will just reply with a bored yes.
Our sex life also sucks, I wont go over the usual "it used to be much better" (although it was), but she could easily go months without sex and she only seems to initiate if I have mentioned something the night before. I always get " im tired" or " not in the mood" and if I try to initiate by kissing her neck or touching her she will either just lie there or huff and move my hands. I have tried to build up slowly, quickly and every other method, but she is rarely interested (unless I mention it).
I have tried to talk to her about our sex life, but she hates talking about it. I have asked if there is anything I can do, but she just answers either "I don't think there is a problem" or something similar.
I have told her I need to have a physical relationship and I am willing to go to speak to someone as I feel it is becoming a problem, but she wont talk about it and will just roll away.

I honestly don't know what to do. I love her loads, but don't want to end up even more unhappy than now and I don't want her to be unhappy .
We have 2 young children and I don't want to separate for them (and the fact I love her), but I don't want to waste the next 10 years with someone who doesn't love me.

As I have already said, I have tried to talk to her about our problems, but she wont .

I don't know what to do. Am I just being over sensitive, childish or something else.

I feel for you, it sounds very much like a relationship I was in once (thought I was the woman) and I know its not a nice feeling. Obviously if the things you are trying are working, you have to try different things or you will just keep getting the same results.

What do you think would turn her on or make her feel loved? What did she like most in the early stages of your relationship when (presumably) your sex life was much better? Does she like romantic gestures, being taken out? being given gifts? Love letters? Cooking for her or doing some little act of service? We all have our preferred way of feeling loved or turned on, do you know what hers is?

If you dont, you could find out by asking. Sometimes just asking something like "what did you like most about our relationship when we first met?" can make her remember the good times and that itself might put her "in the mood"

Aim to make her fancy you first, rather than trying to turn her on physically, imagine you just met and have to impress her/flirt with her/make her feel special. Show MASSIVE amount of confidence, and never ever show any disappointment, even if you get rejected, cos that's just not sexy!

good luck!

*disclaimer. I am single. therefore feel free to ignore this advice, especially if better advice comes along after

I think you need to tell her that a physical relationship is very important and give her two choices:

Either you go and speak to someone together, or she gives you permission to look elsewhere.

I don't really think she deserves to have you pander to her by giving her gifts and love letters. From the way you describe her behaviour it sounds like the problem goes a bit deeper than her just not being in the mood for sex.
I think the time has come for you to have a really serious conversation with her regarding your future, because it sounds untenable for you to continue as you are.

I'm in a similar position to you OP but sometime down the line - you sound patient but i'd agree that the being even nicer is probably not as productive as going to relate

if she won't go you need to be clear about the consequences for the relationship - be it seperation or a freeze on house moves or whatever

good luck

Sorry to hear this OP.

I think the issues go deeper than sex, the sex is a symptom not the cause. If your sex life were absolutely as you would want, would you still be happy with the relationship?

Speaking from my own experience, sex is a basic human need & once one partner has disengaged then they have emotionally distanced themselves from you & that is a premise to a split.

I may be way off the mark here & apologise in advance if I am, but would it be easy for her to be seeing someone else without your knowledge? For example is she late back in the evenings or has work weekends away? Is she possessive of her phone & won't let you touch it?

I ask because if she doesn't want to talk about the way you are feeling then perhaps the cause for her behaviour is outside your relationship, & the guilt on her side makes her not face the problems.

How does it feel in your gut? What do you think is wrong?

You have two young children; are they sleeping through the night? Who gets up to them if they wake? Is your wife recovered from the most recent birth?

Who takes responsibility for housework, cooking, cleaning, childcare?

Does your wife have leisure time? Time to herself without the children? What does she do for fun?

I think that the lack of sex is a symptom of the real problem which I see as the lack of communication between you.

If you are not able to talk about ordinary, day to day things, you are unlikey to be able to tackle bigger issues. And withholding/withdrawing communication is a rather bad indicator of relationship health

When we're you last able to communicate well? What's changed since then?

I'm also going to say that lack of sex is the tip of an iceberg here. The big part lurking under the water is going to be a combination of any number of things ranging from the monotony of everyday family life, to feeling taken for granted, to straightforward fatigue, to lack of affection, to feeling uncomfortable in a post-baby body, to poor communication and 'growing apart', to being totally hacked off with someone or being emotionally hooked up with someone else .... it's never simple.

I think, when you get to the stage where you're contemplating sitting in a room with someone and discussing sex (or lack of, to be more accurate) in a pretty cold-light-of-day way, something very important has died. Because sex is normally a pretty impulsive, visceral thing ... a culmination of various emotions and desires. You can't rationalise desire... and you certainly can't persuade a reluctant sexual partner with a dynamite argument. All they'll feel is brow-beaten and pressurised.

It's very worrying that she has clammed up and won't talk. That's usually a very bad sign. I'm guessing there is no overt display of affection in your relationship? No cuddles on the sofa, kisses or holding hands in the street? No flirty texts or in jokes? Do you socialise together? Do anything without the kids in tow? That's where I'd start therefore. Leave sex well and truly off the agenda, get talking, make some time to get to know each other again and try to rediscover the affection. If she's really not interested in you on any level then it may be better to split than to bring your kids up in such an unhappy household

Sex is but one aspect of a couple's life together, when it becomes rarer you crave it and somewhere along the line, you begin to resent the other person as if they withhold it as a punishment. Simultaneously, nothing dulls the appetite more than feeling like you are dishing out sex as a duty or reward.

I don't want to waste the next 10 years with someone who doesn't love me

I can't see inside her head but I guess your wife feels secure with you, so she doesn't feel she has to prove anything, she got out of the habit of expressing her love physically, unless prompted.

When spontaneity dies, it's easy to get entrenched. If she has responded positively ie taken the initiative when you mention it, that implies she doesn't find you repugnant or the idea of sex itself distasteful.

Do everyday stuff for her - little kindnesses that aren't overtly aimed at getting in her good books. Concentrate on the children, your weekends together. Examine your own input to this marriage.

Does she have salaried work outside the home, does she seem content with life in general? Perhaps she doesn't feel rampant after taking care of the children's needs. She may feel she doesn't want to burden you with the minutiae of her day especially if it is monotonous.

Couples do grow apart and if this relationship isn't working at a level you are happy with then, tell her you miss her already so if she can't join you in figuring out a solution, you may as well go your separate ways.

I do sometimes wish that similar threads where the man is the "distant" partner would be treated as gently as the woman in OP's life is being treated.

OP, having been where you are once I can only sympathise. ultimately no matter how much love you give to someone they are entirely in their own right to reject or accept it. We crush ourselves with guilt wondering what more we can do - why our love is not enough. Stop!

Time to be happy for you and your children, time to enjoy the moment and really take on life with joy. Your DP will hopefully draw something from this and re-engage or she may just chose to end it (if there is someone else).

For her - if its really bad and you fear for her - Seek medical advice, ask her to see someone if you feel it gets to the point of depression. bring someone else to help out, give her personal time to be whole again.

By finding the 'happy', 'better' you, you will at least see through this process with your children fulfilled and happy.

Looking back I wish I had the strength to just live life and be an even better dad, but instead I was "mummy needs to rest" shhh guys, and constantly wondering what was lacking in me. feeling guilty for having fun with them and eventually being home bound too afraid to enjoy life.

Support and love her but not to the detriment of the whole family.

Best of luck.

She's not depressed. She's quite happy having sparky conversations and fun with other people than the OP. He gets his information when she chats to friends. That's not a depressed woman, it's one that's living a separate but quite acceptable life.

I think he got it right originally when he said she sees him as 'stability'... money? house? steady job? ... and takes it for granted that, however much she ignores or rejects him, he'll stick around and take it. Which he currently is. There could be an OM behind this but I don't think it's a given. Doesn't want to talk or go in for therapy because she doesn't see there's a problem, has no intention of changing, and is quite content in her own way. That quite cruel.

I agree with Cogito.

"she sees him as 'stability'... money? house? steady job? ... and takes it for granted that, however much she ignores or rejects him, he'll stick around and take it"

Ouch!

Corgito pretty much took much snuffed out what little morsel of hope one may have had.

but she is so right on reflection.

OP my situation is similar. I agree with Cognito too.

Because we live in a world where there is a lot of propaganda about gender roles, and a lot of expectations about how men and women shoud behave in a relationship, the most important questions are the ones HellOnHeels asked.

Do you do your share of domestic work and childcare, OP? Your fair share is not necessarily exactly the same number of hours as your wife does: it's doing enough domestic work to enable both of you to have the same amount of leisure time. The biggest cause of women losing interest in sex is men who do little or no domestic work, because if you are treated like a servant by your partner, you start to percieve sex as another chore you are expected to perform for his benefit.

"The biggest cause of women losing interest in sex is men who do little or no domestic work,"

Is it really? Or is it that they are fed up with looking at his face across the breakfast table, can no longer fake interest in anything he does or says, and have realised that the annoying little habits that used to be tolerable are driving them quietly crackers? The OP could be up until 3am ironing the dishes and I don't think that's going to make any difference quite honestly

I was just like your wife, OP. I was emotionally hooked up with my children, and at the same ime felt trapped by them. And that does something to your sex drive. Plus my DH treated me like an ineffective domestic skivvy, and whined about sex until I dreaded him coming near me. I especially didn't want meals out, or weekends away, because I knew that to him, they just meant sex.

I too would chat animatedly to friends - they were my lifeline.

I would say you need to talk about her life - about what she's happy or unhappy about - and don't mention your need for sex. Maybe a facilitator such as Relate would help you break down the barriers.

If you don't want to lose her, and become a part time father, you'll have to resign yourself to seeing to yourself for a while.

OP, does your wife come on MN?

Ok, coming from someone who has been actively dating - I'm not looking for re-marriage or more kids so a lot of my decisions are just based on "do I FANCY him or not?".

If I was dating someone like you my judgement would be "he's not masculine/independent enough to attract me, so I'd only go out with him for companionship/to say I have a man/for security". Which is where your wife is, kind of.

I mean deep down, I want to have sex/be fucked with someone who is fundamentally on my side BUT also someone who has purpose in life which isn't just "pleasing/keeping me"?

An attitude of "you can do and say ANYTHING you like, because I want to PLEASE you and keep us TOGETHER" is a massive turn off. Don't want a caveman, but equally I find men who don't set boundaries with themselves unattractive.

You mention how much "you'd do anything for her", but I get the vibe that's not actually what she wants. She wants someone interesting and independent who values his OWN time and companionship.

Stop instigating stuff. Stop the "we need to talk" conversations. Start doing your own thing. Let HER come to you romantically. Every woman who had dated around will know what I mean by "nice guy who is a bit below my league but will do anything for me". And we don't end up fucking or dreaming about fucking those men. You need to stop coming across like this to her.

Stop all the "we have to talk...hello..hello I'm nice and you OUGHT to talk to me?" stuff.

Start presenting yourself better. Find your own things to do that aren't "wife centred" - I don't mean going out to drink 16 pints of Stella and watching football and ignoring your kids and cheating, but get off the internet, work out, a fit sporty man is ALWAYS more attractive, etc etc? Stop being too "open" with her. Someone who insists on sharing every little detail of their life can get tiresome. You can be independent whilst staying courteous and polite.

Thanks all. Its been interesting to read so far.
I think a few of you have touched on the truth.

I bit of an update for information purposes.

we both work and are classed as professionals. She loves doing well in work.

I am 35 and in better shape than most.

I don't go out much, but do keep myself fit and go out without the wife.

I have tried not making a big deal out of sex and have tried not making any first moves, but this just led to 6 weeks without sex.

I agree there could be an issue with your viewing sex as a discrete part of your relationship. Normally in couples, sex becomes less of an objective and more an expression of the relationship in general. I did have a marriage that featured great sex while everything else was awful, but that is quite unusual I think, and no better.

So - if she isn't 'using' you as it were, is it possible she's angry? How much of the house and child care do you do, compared to her? Who gets up in the night for the kids? Who cleans the loo and remembers to buy detergent?

I suppose I'm saying the two most likely scenarios are that one of you is taking the other for granted; I'm asking you to consider honestly whether you may be the guilty party. How easy were your DCs' births? What do you know about her recoveries from them?

There are women and men who, sadly, have little interest in intimacy of any sort once children have been 'achieved'. I hope this isn't your wife's case, so let's eliminate the obvious first!

I think many long term relationships can slip into complacency. I don't agree that this spells the death knell, but the OPs predicament signals an urgent need to say how unhappy he is, and, yes listen to what she says. Because as others have said, this might be about some underlying unexpressed anger or resentment on her part.

xpost

yes garlicgrump

You haven't said much about who does what at home.

Most women don't care if you are fit.
They care about love.

Are you usually affectionate without leading to sex, just for the sake of affection?

damnit1
How old are your children and who does the lion's share of childcare? I mean the routine: - homework supervision, getting toys tidied, bath time, bed time, making sure they have the correct packed lunch/clean school uniform/PE kit/swimming kit/ world book day costume, dealing with how long they spend on playstation/watch tv, sorting out the sibling squabbles etc etc

If very young, do they sleep through the night? If not who gets up to them most often? How do you manage the cleaning/shopping/cooking etc?

Who gets up when they ask for a drink, knock over a cup, need a wee (or whatever depending on age) just after you have sat down to a meal?

Children are incredibly delightful and rewarding but at the same time can be extremely emotionally draining, leaving you with little resource for anything else!

Can you demonstrate your love for her by taking on more of these tasks on a regular basis. Could your wife just be totally worn out?

One way of noticing what is happening is to note when your wife actually sits down to rest in the evening - how often does she do this and for how long? Are you regularly sitting down to computer/tv or going to gym when she is still busy with chores/household stuff?

What would happen if you said nothing, but matched her in time and energy - ie if she is still busy in the evening doing child or household stuff, you continued to work alongside her in a friendly and companionable way, taking on some of the tasks until they were all finished? I'd suggest this as an experiment - try it for 6 weeks and see what happens!

If your wife was posting on here, would she possibly be writing something like OneHandFLapping?

^"I was just like your wife, OP. I was emotionally hooked up with my children, and at the same ime felt trapped by them. And that does something to your sex drive. Plus my DH treated me like an ineffective domestic skivvy, and whined about sex until I dreaded him coming near me. I especially didn't want meals out, or weekends away, because I knew that to him, they just meant sex.

I too would chat animatedly to friends - they were my lifeline."^

Looking at it from another angle, is 6 weeks really that long to go without sex? OK I'm not an expert (by any means), or a bloke (!), but really....?