A happy update from TIL

[TisILeclerc]

She and the children are where they need to be now and she is very grateful for all the support and encouragement she has received. I hope very much that she will return here but for now she?s intending to lie a little bit low.

Please just be sensitive to the fact that this is a huge, life changing decision for her and I think she would like it toned down a bit wrt pompoms and congratulations. I hope very much that this will change as the days pass and she becomes accustomed to the incredulous joy of freedom. She is already sounding positive about life where she is right now.

This time they really are ?safe? in the way that everybody hoped previously.

NB I have not used any names in this for a reason. Please be aware of security as she is understandably very worried about him locating her

GS, let me join everyone here in saying that you are in no way stupid. What happened is that you had the misfortune to meet an exceptionally dangerous man. Nobody is prepared for that. Intelligence or lack of is not what distinguishes women in abusive relationships from anyone else. The only thing that all women who have been abused have in common is that they met an abuser.

It's no surprise that you keep dwelling on the forced pregnancy, because as a means of abuse and of controlling a woman I would say it is only less severe in degree than murdering her. OxfordBags' description of it as a whole-life rape is very apt - because quite apart from being forced to bodily undergo the physical aspects of pregnancy (which in your case put your life on the line), it changes the whole fabric of your life permanently, every day, in every way. Even if you ultimately love the child.

Forcing someone to undergo pregnancy is the ultimate way of saying, you are not a human being with autonomy, you are simply a collection of female body parts. Which, if you remember, is what your husband said plainly to your face when he said that he had a womb and a pair of breasts, ie you.

I can only say again that you need to be really careful about doing anything that feels easier for you, because you have such an ingrained tendency to minimise and choose the less immediately emotionally costly alternative, even if it actually costs you more over the long term.

I do get your feelings of isolation about the forced pregnancy. This didn't happen to me, but other things happened to me - in fact, less tangible things, so it was hard to get hold of iyswim - and I didn't hear anyone else talking about those things. Then, finally, a woman joined the group who talked about the same things that had happened to me, and that was a great release for me.

Forced sex/pregnancy is age-old, isn't it? It is used in war to humiliate the foe. I said, above, that what happened to me was 'less' tangible, but I can see that a forced pregnancy that didn't look or seem forced (but was) is also intangible in its way. The conflict is that facing it and feeling it opens the door to shame - and shame can be unbearable - and anger, which (it appears) you have not been allowed to express; either in your marriage or, most likely, in your childhood home. Perhaps you were shamed for expressing anger when you were a child?

Anyway, I'm not a therapist - I am only suggesting, as one who has grappled with shame, a toxic childhood and an abusive marriage.

I have heard people (adults) talk about eg their own childhood sexual abuse and they present the same confusion, embarrassment, disbelief, shame etc etc (many etcs and conflicting emotions) as you are describing now. Perhaps it is a particular shame that attaches to sexual abuse? Perhaps it might be an idea to make of list of all the feelings you have around this, to identify and clarify? Just a thought.

Sorry if this is a bit scattered. I didn't realise it was so late!

There is a book, an autobiography, you might be interested in. It's 'Are You Somebody?' by Nuala O Faolain. She was an Irish journalist who wrote about her life in Ireland beginning with her childhood in an Ireland where there was no contraception, abortion or divorce, and where 'wanton' women and girls were routinely sent to slavery for indefinite periods in industrial laundries/prisons run by nuns. Her description of her mother's life as the neglected wife of the Society columnist of the Evening Press newspaper may ring a bell with you in some respects. The relationship between mother and daughter is sketched in with spare strokes. It is a very thought-provoking book.

I think you need to try to understand why anger is something you are afraid of.

You might like to look at some books by John Bradshaw:
'Homecoming: Reclaiming and Championing Your Inner Child'
and
'Healing the Shame that Binds You'

'Healing The Child Within: Discovery and Recovery for Adult Children of Dysfunctional Families'
by Charles Whitfield

'Shame and Guilt: Masters of Disguise'
by Jane Middleton-Moz

'The Emotionally Absent Mother: A Guide to Self-Healing and Getting the Love You Missed
by Jasmine Lee Cori

'An Adult Child's Guide to What's "Normal"'
and
'Adult Children: The Secrets of Dysfunctional Families'
by John Friel

'Emotional Blackmail: When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation, and Guilt to Manipulate You'
by Susan Forward

If alcohol played a role in your family of origin, there are many useful books by authors such as Robert Ackerman, Janet Woititz, Herbert Gravitz,

'Addictive Relationships: Why Love Goes Wrong in Recovery'
by Terrence Gorski is a short book that examines the patterns we repeat over and over. It's primarily about addiction but it is thought provoking.

'Getting Love Right: Learning the Choices of Healthy Intimacy' again by Gorski is a very useful look at where you may have been in terms of relationships, making you really look back in detail and trying to get you aware of patterns.

There are many titles by Patrick Carnes that you might like to look at, especially 'The Betrayal Bond'.

There are some interesting thoughts along the same lines on the Relationships thread about 'not being thankful to my mum'. People say 'oh, treasure your mum' but if you have a tricky relationship is just isn't as simple as that.

You do treasure your DS but...it just isn't as simple as that.

Not everyone is capable of understanding that, but a therapist is, and people who have been through it are.

GS -- it's one of those things that is really big and there will be a lot of anger when you begin to dig through it. But you need to get into it with a counsellor or some other form of therapy and sit through the anger.

I agree with math on this. Going around it just won't do it. You have to go right through the middle - or dig through it, as math says (well put). There is a beginning, a middle and an end. You do get through it and it's best to turn over that soil, even though it's painful at the time.

I know of at least people in rl who ave had pregnancy forced on them. 2 left heir abusive relationships, one is still in it, has had 2 further children ( whether these were forced or nt I don't now as she has stopped contact with everyone, including her own family) but those women all love their children unequivocally.
One brushed t under the carpet. She never had any help. Although she loves er daughter she has become quite cold and emotionally distant with her as the child has neared puberty.
The other friend had a lot of help from a refuge, then much more personal and specialised councilling for the abuse she suffered at the hands of her husband, and from her parents before that (outwardly low level, but certainly affected her at a deep level, to do with people pleasing and lack of boundaries, and self esteem) from what she told me she realised that the pregnancy was just a further element of control - making her vulnerable and putting him in a position of power. She realised that because of her childhood and previous boyfriends, she had not had the knowledge and power to prevent it - the failing wasn't with her so much, but with her upbringing which had not prepared her to have a proper, healthy adult relationship. She managed, through therapy, to disaccociate her pregnancy from the child that was born - to see the things as 2 separate entities - this was also made easier because it was obvious that her ex was not actually interested in a child per se, but only in her being pregnant and incapacitated. That way she drew a line at the point of birth in her mind. She adores her child, even though having him has meant that her life was made difficult (less money, unable to continue in her previous career) and she loves him for being the catalyst that made her fully realise her abuse, to get free and to get the help that has changed her life. She hates her abuser though, and realises that pregnancy was just one of any tools in his armoury to keep her weak, confused and dependant. She has said at times that if he could have bound her feet or cut her legs off he may well have chosen that as his method - it had nothing to do with wanting a baby, and everything to do with control, and that is what enabled her to move on and put the pregnancy and the child into 2 separate boxes

Excuse all the typos am on a dodgy keyboard

It's good to see you back, GS, and sounding so together. There are so many people here who are proud and fond of you.

Three children is a great number to have. You have a lovely little group of children around you.

I know it's not the same at all, but I wonder if this would help. I had some miscarriages between dc 2 and 3. I cried and cried over each of those lost babies, got seriously depressed and everything. Finally dc 3 came along. And is the most wonderful child I can imagine having. BUT, there is a little bit of me that still regrets the lost children. BUT, again, I wouldn't have had dc 3 if I had had them.

I'm really not trying to minimise your history, which is obviously a huge thing to have experienced and to have to get over. I think what I am trying to say is that it is so complicated, sorting out your heart and head over children when the circumstances are not what one would have chosen. And sometimes you have to carry two contrasting sets of knowledge and feelings at the same time, and try to come to some sort of synthesis. And then just keep going.

I have a friend who is 20 years older than me, she has three children, she divorced her husband some years ago, I know she suffered EA, but she never went in to much detail, she very casually explained to me that she divorced him because he wanted her "pregnant and barefoot" all the time.

I am sure I read somewhere, infact I think a doctor told me, that men often become abusive becomes pregnant.

It is not an unusual thing to happen, I think its just something women have difficulty talking about

There is increased validation in numbers GS iyswim? Its our form of measure!

Within abusive relationship it is very common to either be falling pregnant almost continually or have the complete opposite of lack of children and not committing to having children or stonewalling about it along with everything else

Its no surprise to me that you feel conflicted about it, but the feeling that you have about what you went through (or accepted at the time) is just what happens, its the way of abuse, which ppl don't understand so well, is hard to understand and the thing that changes when we do understand! we realise we have not been stupid at all, we are strong, and intelligent ladies who put our children first. It says something I think that all ladies in this situation act pretty much the same, it takes time to see, when the scales fall you act, if the scales fell and you didn't act... but, well.. you did, and then you go through revisting it all, now that your survivor mode is calming and the sorting starts... your road to emotional and mental freedom. take care lovely xxx

I'll tell you why it's not spoken about more, GS - because other women don't have your amazing personality and strength. They don't have your ability to make yourself identify and truly look at terrible things. Look at how you opened yourself up to us, and took our harshest, bleakest, firmest criticism and advice on the chin and refused to run away. Yes, part of you minimises, which is only human, but your true self is this sort of Joan of Arc archetype that will not stop battling for what is true and right, no matter what the personal cost.

You are so astute. You can see how things will work out if you try to ignore this; that you will probably end up having a distant or even bad relationship with all your DC, as the notion of them as a threesome is what you struggle with, not each individual child. Just getting to this realisation, and accepting you need help for it would take others years to get to (years where irreperable damage would be done to your relationship with yourkids). And not just the realisation in their own mind, but take years getting there in actual therapy. Some people would never even get it, full stop.

I am having psychotherapy for my various issues, and I can reassure that it is incredibly helpful and freeing. Working through some things I was terrified would break me if I confronted them has actually been like realising the things that scare me most are actually more like rubbish ghost train puppets, not real monsters, if that makes sense. Scooby-
doo, not Saw, say. Psychotherapy is v different from just plain old counselling, I am finding. Because it is for the much deeper issues, of course.

There can be few things more difficult for a mother to express than to say that, for whatever reasons, she didn't want one (or more) of her children, however much she does love them. This is why you don't hear or read about it more, not that you are unique or in a tiny minority. You are brave. You stick your head above the parapet, GS, even if you then panic a bit and wonder why the hell you do it.

If you are this strong now, you will rule the bloody world after therapy!

hear here OB my thoughts too... amazingly brave and honest to share that, its such a conflicted place to be, with potential for huge judgements..

I don't know if the 'everything except this' approach would be useful. I think forcing you (or manipulating you or guilting you or pressuring you beyond anything reasonable) to become pregnant again and have DC3 is on the one hand a specific violation of your physical body and your spirit (with the additional horror of you almost not surviving and him blithely thinking you would be up for another go making it all the worse) but also this specific violation is emblematic of the total control of others and total lack of care for anyone's welfare that was what made your H the man he is.

Hope you're all ok..

Hi GS. Am just waving hello. Hope you and kids are doing okay and getting lots of support in RL.

I don't often post on these, GS I am a lurker. I have little direct experience of your sort of situation, But what Oxford bags said in her first paragraph on 23 may about your strength.

That.

No pompoms. No backslapping bullshit.

Just ...

fuck me, you are strong

Hi GS, I namechanged recently but have been posting on your threads from the start. Was just wondering how you were getting on - hope everything is good :)

I haven't said anything much on your thread recently, GS, but I'm still wishing you well.

I think you're right to think that you will gradually start to feel better about things, hopefully the peaks and troughs will level out to a calm contentment for you soon! You are dealing with complicated and very emotional issues, but I'm so glad that your counsellor is helping you through them in a constructive way.

Going on the pill was a massive and very difficult thing for you to do, and you were amazingly brave to be able to do it at any point while you were still with H, but I'm sure you know that really. You are not responsible for the circumstances of DC3's conception.

How are your DCs now that they've had a decent amount of space from your H?

Hello GS. It's good to hear from you. :-) I can imagine the sense of freedom in being able to make everyday decisions, without being contradicted, disapproved of, or undermined every step of the way.

You mentioned about explaining to exH how ill you were with dc3. You wondered if you'd made it clear enough to him. But I think by the end of your paragraph, you'd seen the truth for yourself. He did know, GS: he is many things, but he is not a stupid man. He knew why he'd been called there, and why they'd made special arrangements for him to stay.

Please don't feel responsible for not making things clear. His acting as if it hadn't happened, or didn't mean anything, was a choice. I hope that helps to reassure you a little.