Subtle EA? Or is it just me? Confused, please help

[WearingFuckMeSocks]

I sincerely apologise in advance for the length of this post, feel free to skim bits if it makes it easier.

I have lurked here for sometime, have stumbled across the support thread for those in emotionally abusive relationships, have never thought of DH as abusive as he?s never hit me but I?ve been unhappy for a while and couldn't understand why, he?s not overtly abusive, doesn't call me names or put me down in any obvious way, but over the 15 years we?ve been together has done some pretty shitty things. (We?ve been together 15 years, married for 10 and have ds age 7 and dd age 5)

only months after we got together I discovered I was pregnant, I hoped to sit down & discuss it like adults with him; he burst into tears, wailed, sobbed, put his head in his hands and begged me to have an abortion. I would have done anyway but didn't feel like I had a choice. The very fact that I was considering keeping it seemed to offend him.

He once burned the book i was reading on our BBQ (when drunk) because it was called ?The Satanist? and as a Catholic it offended him, esp as his mum had cancer.

once during a heated argument he got so angry he punched the wall right next to my head so hard it left the imprint of his four knuckles in the plaster; he said that was ok, he was so angry he really wanted to punch me but punched the wall instead.

2-3 years ago he decided to get fit so was having sessions with a PT, he badgered me into going too, even though I wasn't keen; after 6 months when i?d lost 1 1/2 stone, and gone from a size 16 to a 12 (im 6ft) he told me one night as i was getting into bed that ?he didn?t fancy me anymore, my tits were all saggy and I?d ruined my body and he wanted me to have a boob job"

last year bought me some eye-wateringly expensive underwear, and despite me saying repeatedly that it didn't fit has proceeded to buy me another 4 sets of same size stuff. Gets upset when I tell him it doesn't fit (again) and says he is only doing it to spice things up and put the spark back.

once remotley wiped my iphone after an argument, and during same argument threatened to sell the car

demanded/coerced me into sex when I had recurring thrush (every month, over a period of four years), despite me telling him repeatedly how much it burned.

no help with kids - has never bathed kids, could count on fingers of one hand how many times he?s put them to bed, says he cant read bedtime stories because he?s dyslexic but manages to spend 2-3 hours on his ipad every night. I thought that was normal until an exchange student we had staying with us for the summer last year commented on how he did nothing with the kids and I did everything.

went on holiday last year, DS took the class ?holiday bear? & was soooo excited, DH said we couldn?t take bear on days out in case it got lost. I was too scared to say the bear could go in the back pack, DS was visibly crushed & in tears, i felt I had failed DS because i didn't stand up to DH.

a couple of years back he tried to persuade me to have my navel pierced, i said no, then during an argument said he just wanted a sign that I loved him, like - guess what - having my navel pierced. to my eternal shame i did it, hated it but thank god it rejected so i took it out.

says he wants me to wear sexy clothes so that when we go out he can show me off and other blokes will be jealous. i don?t really want to anyones trophy.

he wants me to be completely hairless between my legs, i?ve tried it a couple of times but frankly don't like it, thinks its degrading, don?t think im setting a good example to my dd (or ds for that matter, what will he think when sees a real bush?), (and god does it itch when it grows back in) he says I should do it for him to please him.

Says i should do things to please him even if i don't like doing it, as he would do the same for me. i have tried to explain to him that i don't understand how he can get pleasure from me doing something I clearly don't want to do, and that i wouldn't even ask him to do something that he was unhappy with, but he doesn't get it.

A few weeks ago DS was unhappy at school & with homework, after a discussion with the head teacher I was browsing the web looking at home schooling (something I considered before DS started school, not something I?d rush into but it?s always an option) he caught me looking at HE websites, didn't think to ask my opnion about it, just went straight into a tirade about how he disagreed and he was really upset that I was even thinking about it.

basically every argument turns into how he feels about it and how upset I have made him feel and how i need to change my behavior so that he doesn?t get upset and that he?s only happy when I?m happy.

I?ve stuck it this long because of what we?ve been through with his parents, his mum had cancer for years, with all the entailing chemo, radiotherapy etc, then 3 weeks after she died we found out his Dad had cancer, he died 6 months later (Feb 2009). For a long time I?ve made excuses for DH?s behavior because his parents were ill and then obv he was grieving.

Last year things seemed finally to be good, we had about 6 months where I thought we were finally coming out of the woods, but the last 6 months have been hell. We argue every week, he says its because I don't talk to him. I?ve tried to explain I feel afraid to talk to him because he raises his voice, interrupts me, and doesn't listen. He says its all down to me, only I can change it and I?m not normal.

I could go on but think even i'd lose the will to live reading it all.

In short (and thanks if you?ve stuck with me this far) is any of the above normal? would you have put up with this thus far? Am I over-reacting? And what are the chances of things ever being better? should I just cut my losses now and run?

I?ve just turned 40, have taken a long hard look at the last 15 years and don't want the next 15 to be the same.

Also read the page about the wisdom of letting a toxic person have the last word. It might be too early for that, but from now on before you waste vital energy going into verbal battle with him to protect your ground, think about whether it matters or not, the outcome of this verbal row in your sitting room. What matters? the legal stuff. Fight your corner of course, but legally. Save your energy for that.

Interesting isn't it the perception that needless = good. I think I have some confusion over those two. but my female friends are all good people. I have managed to have healthy female friendships, it is wrt men that I have tried (in the past) to be needless. I think. And so, like the article says, ended up with somebody who would do nothing for me, and blamed me for having needs.

I was advised mediation didn't have to involve you being together and also that it is good to let them try and show how unreasonable they are then it looks good for you in court?

I went to mediation with mine. It was horrendous. Mediator insisted I yield a point for every point he 'yielded', where he was not actually giving out anything. He totally fooled her and I must have looked mentally incompetent, I was so anxious. As soon as we'd got outside - still on their doorstep - he raged, saying he would never disclose his financial details.

He didn't, either. We divorced without a financial settlement as I was too worn down and couldn't afford a solicitor with teeth - the one I had was feeble. If this forum had been available to me, OP, things may have turned out differently - for sure, I wouldn't have felt so broken down!

Glad you're getting your reinforcements lined up :) Keep taking care of yourself.

How awful for you Garlic, Sounds as if mediator was incompetant not you. I hope you are not still broken

Yes, I have the whole "don't like to feel that I'm bothering people" thing. Maybe being an only child I just got used to doing everything for myself, maybe having a pronounced stutter meant that I literally couldn't ask for things. Who knows, but it's something that I'll watch out for from now on.

And something garlicyoni said a few posts back - the myriad weird abuses you will now start noticing - have noticed 3 things in the last 24 hours

1. last night H had to get me out of bed to discuss kitchen fitting with his 2 mates who are helping him. H was a total arse & rude, whereas one of his mates got me a chair to sit on and closed the doors so I wouldn't get cold (I was in my dressing gown with bare feet) and the other apologised for getting me out of bed more than once. and they both talked to me like a human being with opinions.

1. H had a go at dd this morning, she woke me up in the night again last night so this morning H said "dd, you'll have to stop waking up in the night, everyone is tired, mummy cant help daddy because you wake her up, and ds is still in bed" I thought that was so unfair!!! I quietly pointed out to him, but so that she could hear me, that all of us being tired is nothing to do with dd; I'm feeling poorly & not sleeping well generally, he is working hard & ds was up til 9 playing with his lego, none of which is dd's fault

1. yesterday morning, new units arrived for fitting, H is trying to stem a flow of water from a heating pipe he's just accidentally cut through, I'm about to leave house with kids for school. The conversation goes thus:

Me: the guys are here with the units, they want to know where to put them H: come closer Me: (stepping closer) the guys are here with the units H: come closer Me: I can't come any closer, I'm already here (I was standing right next to him) H: [heavy sigh] Do you want me to have to stand up? Me: No, I'm just telling you the guys are here with the units. H: I'll stand up if you want me to (makes move like he's about to stand up) Me: No, I'm not asking you to stand up, I'm just telling you the guys are here. H: tell them to come here then

I mean, is it just me, or was there just no need for that whole exchange?

This is what it's like most of the time; I say something, he says "so what your saying is this", I say "no, what i said was..." cue 24 hour row with accompanying huffs and sniping.

Sorry, that was a bit ranty, just needed to vent!!

Vent accepted.x

Sorry, just realised x post with garlicyoni - that does sounds horrendous, no wonder you were broken. I do hope you have recovered.

I also hope the mediator in question has chosen a more suitable career (like potting plants or weaving tofu) and is no longer blighting vulnerable peoples lives with their wishy washy "let's all be nice to each other" worldview.

Thanks, cjel & OP. That humour will stand you in good stead, Socks

You're right. He IS weird! "dd, you'll have to stop waking up in the night" Of course, people wake up on purpose don't they?!
And lol at cutting through the water pipe causing temporary deafness.

Nice to see you had such a clear demonstration of ordinary consideration (making sure you weren't cold after being hauled out of bed) vs spousal neglect. Carry on venting! x

1. Why couldn't the conversation happen at a more reasonable time i.e. before you'd gone to bed? At the very least apologise for getting you up.

1. It's like the equivalent of 'kicking the cat' - things not going well - take it out on something smaller and weaker. Bullying basically.

1. Weird.

Sounds like every exchange is difficult or hard work.

The conversation happened then because they had just realised that the guy who designed the kitchen (who is inconveniently on holiday this week) had dropped a bollock and mis-measured one of the doors. So there was much hasty redesigning & working around going on. H couldn't decide which of the work arounds was best and needed a second opinion (fair enough) but no, he didn't apologise.

He does that quite often to the kids. Tells them not to do certain things because it "upsets mummy". I hate that so much, and I always try and undo the damage by apologising and explaining that no, they haven't upset mummy. Mummy is just ground down from from spending 15 years with an emotionally stunted fuckwit tired, or has a hard day at work, or whatever other reason I can think of that doesn't blame them and heap guilt upon them.

but it's what he learned from his parents. We all had to tiptoe round his mum, even his Dad, in case we upset her. Awful though it is to say, when she became really ill towards the end of her life I was sure she was enjoying it, in a perverse way, because she got so much attention, and could behave in whatever nasty, controlling way she felt because she was dying.

It's liberating isn't it? Seeing him for what he is and starting to realise that it is him, not you.

Conversation 3. sounds like he puts himself in the position of victim/martyr. How very, very exhausting for you.

On the subject of mediation. If stories of what others have done help - here's another. I 'mediated' via solicitors, no face to faces required I did use relate for counselling to help me tell him I wanted to separate but that's a whole other story. I used a parental agreement I found on the internet as the basis. It covered some quite unusual things as well as finances: how secondary school was going to be chosen, how we were going to split Christmas, birthdays, mother's day, what happened in the event of death in terms of grandparent's access, who was going to sign school forms, how much time out of school we could request for holidays, who was going to organise holiday clubs, what decisions we were going to both be involved in etc.

This was because I wanted to get on paper something that meant I didn't spend years being undermined by him and him fannying around trying to use my DS to control me. I have been thankful on a number of occasions when he reverts to type as been able to just point him back to what we've agreed rather than argue the point.

Like Jenny suggests, I took control and went with an initial proposal. I wrote everything down, I talked XH through the structure and process I proposed we use (but not the content though I did hint at what I was going to propose), gave the draft to my lawyer who sent a letter stating what I was proposing, he would get his lawyer to write back and accept things. Points that weren't accepted I asked him why on an email and asked for alternative proposals (because I wanted to keep costs down) and we closed things down that way. It was awful but it was worth it. Like garlic I compromised on more than I would have if MN were around and that's quite hard to reconcile with when I'm being critical with myself. But, on balance, it's done and there is nothing I can do to change it and I had to do, what I had to do to get out so I don't dwell on it for ages.

I used a parental agreement I found on the internet as the basis. That sounds like a really good idea Tea, because I can see him being a sodding nightmare and turning every minor decision into a major battle. Christ, he does that anyway, I dread to think how bad it'll be when we've split.

And you're right, it is bloody exhausting to live with someone who's glass is not only half empty but which has a crack in the bottom of it as well.

Oh, and if you haven't any tofu you could always try crocheting some lentils

we found some lovely furry beetroot opened since easter in my fridge we could use for pom poms?

It's very difficult to get a solicitor who believes you that you're dealing with a type of lunatic. I know that my solicitor thinks I was making it up when I told him certain things about my x.

Funnily enough, my X's solicitor had obviously been told I was a chaotic, stupid, lazy, dramatic, histrionic scrounging lyinng article, so the bizarre thing was that after three episodes in court over the space of three months, I felt that my x's solicitor had a higher opinion of me than my own did. Can that really be possible??? my x's solicitor obviously got the chance to grill me in the box and I was more than able for his questions, more than able for them. I came accross as somebody who wanted the sacrifices of parenting equalised and I detailed all the things I was doing for children wrt extra curricular activities, braces, etc.... He'd clearly been told what a hopeless lazy stupid liar I was, and he was met with somebody who could not only defend herself, but defend herself well and without any toooood. It was odd. I walked out of court and my x's solicitor looked me in the eye and I felt I had his respect.

Jenny, that sounds like an awful experience, your solicitor was clearly an arse. Good for you that you held your own though. I'm hoping that given the fact that the solicitor I'm going to use has been "recommended" by WA that they will actually have lots of experience of this type of thing and won't treat me like i'm an imbecile.

cjel - mouldy beetroot pom poms on a woven tofu jumper? Very Vivienne Westwood!

Here's a multiple choice question for all you lovely people, extra points to those who get it right first time:

so, last night was my first session at the "Creative Writing to feel better" course at a local school. I have been wanting to do some sort of evening class for ages (by which I mean years, as only now has H realised that yes, he can look after his own kids while I go out for a few hours) and was really looking forward to it. So, at 6.30 I kissed the kids night night, kissed H, said "see you later, love" and headed to the door. What was his reply?

Was it
a) have a lovely time honey, see you later?
b) i hope the course is great, i'm sure you'll meet lots of new people
c) if you shag anyone wearing corderoy elbow patches I'll smash your face in?

Any takers? Am I the only one who thinks that the fact that he said it with a smile on his face doesn't make it a joke, or in any way funny? Yes, I know his sister left her ex for someone who bought her a cup of tea on her teacher training course, but it would be nice to be trusted not to do that, given that he has no reason whatsoever to suspect me of ever being unfaithful (which I haven't btw - when would I find the time?)

and to make matters worse, when I got the course there were only 2 other people there, one of whom was the tutor, so the course has been cancelled! I'm gutted!!

AND I only realised in the shower this morning that if I hadn't told H that the course had been cancelled he need never have known and I could have had 3 jours to myself every Wednesday night. Curse my innate sense of honesty and lack of natural cunning.

Oh for fucks sake. He is a knobber. And i completely recognise what you're going through. Get yourself on another course if you can so you don't lose the impetus. Having a space where you can be yourself is very important over the coming months.

Are you starting to get your plan together?

Is an appointment with CAB worth doing too?

you are seeing this in a healthy way, what an idiot he is.I second finding something else you could do.x

You should be on a creative writing course! I know your last post had shocking and then disappointing news, but also - it was brilliantly written. You have a talent there!

But yes - what a horrible thing to say. Its just bad on so many levels. How could "smash your face in" ever be an acceptable thing to say? Its an evening class not an opportunity to find a shag. Where is the respect, trust, friendliness? Nowhere to be seen.

Gosh, thanks Lily, I am now blushing furiously at the compliment

Taken Tea & cjel's advice & looking for another course , sadly most of them seem to be either during the day, or are intermediate/advanced courses, or are in something I really wouldn't fancy doing (City & Guilds PAT testing, anyone?). There is a 5 week Confidence Building course, starting early June, which might be helpful but rather less fun than I'd hoped.

Re the plan: I've rang the solicitors and made an appointment (have to say the woman who took my call wasn't quite as helpful as I was expecting, but hey ho, maybe she's having a bad day). Seeing my GP tonight; the solicitor said that I might be eligible for legal aid in cases of domestic abuse but I'd have to prove it, eg with a letter from my GP. i did go my gp 3 years ago and discussed what i now recognise, and im sure the gp did at the time, was EA. however, apparently its only admissible if its happened in the last 2 years. New Government rules .

H is away Friday night and all day Sat, so have plans to get all paperwork together on Friday eve (with a glass of wine) then I can leave it all at my mums house for safe keeping.

wearing my solicitor was in his early sixties and my x's solicitor was hardly 30. A lot of these things I only realised in hindsight, luckily, so I didn't have the weight of all of these realisations on my back the whole way through court processes.

Definitely use a solicitor recommended by WA. I think that that gives the judge a bit of a headsup sometimes.

ps, I agree, saying it as a 'joke' isn't funny. It's still a threat.

go for the confidence building course! he will HATE that of course.

So NOT the normal thing to say!

What an utter, insecure arse he is. "I'll smash your face in" is never funny no matter how much someone says it was a 'joke'. It just shows how warped his grasp of acceptable behaviour, is, if he thinks that was in any way OK.

I am going through a bad patch with DP at the moment (wondering whether to start my own thread about it actually). Hanging around Relationships has definitely opened my eyes to some stuff that's been going on, on my own doorstep. But anyway - even so, I can't imagine him saying anything remotely like that, as far-from-perfect as he is. He would say option A.

Just note it all down (or use this thread as a reminder). Yet another fine example of verbal and emotional abuse.