Falling pregnant is 90% a woman's fault

[Gingerandhibiscus]

Women CAN'T win!!!

REading through a thread on mn here where a single pregnant poster was pasted, interrogated judged and made answer for herself - I feel something like despair. (I don't know how she must feel).

Women don't 'put out' they're prudes and frigid or they have boundaries up around them. Or they're too fussy or too picky, or they're up themselves, or they're ugly, or they're spinsters. or feminists. What criticism are there for men who aren't in a sexual relationship.

if they have unprotected sex they are judged for 1) having had unprotected sex, and 2) if they get pregnant they're judged for not taking the MAP, and not having an abortion.

of course, if they had had an abortion they'd be judged for that too.

The original poster on the thread that has ME slackjawed works so she can't be attacked for seeking benefits. But some posters told her she shouldn't seek maintenance because it's not right given that the father wanted her to have an abortion. others told her she had a duty to seek maintenance on behalf of her child.

another poster told her that his taxes are propping up the running of the CSA. He seemed angry that the law and the state support a single woman in her unplanned pregnancy.

women can't win no matter what they do and what they choose. Unless they get married at about 27-33 to a nice man they'll be judged at some point. You literally can't move as a woman without being judged. ANd not just by men, but by women ... and that upsets me... :-(

so how does that mean that women should be responsible for contraception? given men have no say over the outcome of an unplanned pregnancy isn't that all the more reason to teach our sons that they need to be extremely careful about sex and contraception?

It has nothing to do with contraception, it's a separate issue, I just said if I was a women who didn't want to get pregnant I'd look after contraception myself and not take the risk of relying on someone else. I don't see why that's so difficult to understand.

Before MN, I must admit, I hadn't heard of so many 'accidents' in real life experience.

Men DO have option to use contraception or not or to have sex or not.

Yes women have the further option if an abortion but its not exactly an easy option.

So women have one further option, both have the option to use contraceotion or to not have sex. Women have to pay the ultimate physical price of having an abortion or going through preg or childbirth. Neither are easy options unlike a man who CAN walk away. He may still have to pay but he can walk away from any practical responsibility. Having the responsibility of paying maintenance is the consequence a man takes from choosing to have sex.

A woman who chooses to have sex accepts thebconsequences will be an abortion or preg/birth AND the financial.cost.

5madthings, yes men have those options! The op said women can't win, I said its no picnic for men either, I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!

No not a picnic for men but the financial.cost is small compared to yhe physical cost for women and the fact that women are judged more than men and then even more so once they have a child.

I am amused by the men saying women should take responsibility for contraception as they are the ones who get pregnant but also complaining that they get no say once a woman is pregnant. If its the woman that gets pregnant and that makes it all her responsibility then NEWSFLASH she gets more say in the matter. If men got more involved in responsibility at the point of using contraception, they wouldn't have to worry about not getting a say in the pregnancy.

Itsyoni, what exactly is amusing in saying a woman who doesn't want to get pregnant should use contraception? Seems like common sense to me. when I was a younger man I always used contraception because I didn't want children and I wouldn't trust someone else to take care of it.

I've just name changed but feel free to read my post properly. My point was that you can't have it both ways. If you want the woman to take all the responsibility for contraception, don't be surprised or disgruntled when that extends to having all the choices about a surprise pregnancy.

What Berts said.

I'd like to point out to some of the people above that we don't have abortion on demand in this country,

a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or
(b) that the termination of the pregnancy is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or
(c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated
(d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped

(Taken from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_Kingdom)

You may notice that abortions are not given because 'the person who provided the sperm doesn't want to pay for the child when it's born'.

lenonstartree - I have a small bone to pick, the coil didnt work for me. I didnt use it wrong, it wasnt put in wrong, it didnt fall out it just didnt work. Fortunately I was (and still am) in a stable marriage. We were able to take an unplanned pregnancy in our stride.

You dont hear about accidental pregnancies in RL because people on the whole dont choose to shout about it to friends and family. Once a pregnancy is discovered decisions are made. You will only tend to hear about it if there is a vocal challenge to the decision.

Read my posts properly, nowhere did I say only women should take responsibility for contraception, not in my last post, not in this thread, not on this site, not ever, I'll repeat it for the third or fourth time. If I was a woman, I'd take care of contraception myself not rely on someone else because I wouldn't trust them.

Just as in my days as a single man I took care of contraception because I wouldn't trust a woman. I hope that clears that up.

Men have no say in the outcome of unwanted pregnancies, I think that is unfair but I don't advocate putting a gun to a woman's head and forcing her to go through a pregnancy she doesn't want or having an abortion. Short of drawing pictures I don't think I could make that any clearer.

Here:

A man and woman are equally responsible for a pregnancy but as its a woman who gets pregnant I think a woman should take responsibility for contraception. If I was a woman I wouldn't want to rely on somebody else when it was me that has to deal with the consequences.

Second page of this thread, "as its a woman who gets pregnant I think a woman should take responsibility for contraception".

Men have no say in the outcome of unwanted pregnancies, I think that is unfair but I don't advocate putting a gun to a woman's head and forcing her to go through a pregnancy she doesn't want or having an abortion.

Well that's something I suppose

Itsyoni, what exactly is amusing in saying a woman who doesn't want to get pregnant should use contraception?

Because it seems to have escaped your notice that contraception is never 100%. Not wanting to get pregnant and using contraception is still not a cast iron guarantee that a pregnancy will not occur. The pill - it can fail if not used properly, or other medication interferes with it - I've known a few people over the years who have fallen pregnant when they fell ill while using it. Or it just doesn't work for some people. The coil - it can slip/move/fall out of position and fail to prevent pregnancy. Or it just doesn't work for some people. My cousin had her 3rd baby despite having had the coil fitted. Condoms can split. MAP can fail if not taken quickly enough - unplanned pregnancies happen despite taking the necessary steps to prevent pregnantcy My DD is here now because of an unplanned pregnancy. Split condom, failed MAP and her dad telling me that he couldn't actually have kids before we had sex. And yet I still ended up pregnant. I knew before I had sex that there was a risk of me getting pregnant because that's just a fact of life - sex = baby. At the back of my mind I never believed I would get pregnant, especially given the precautions we took, and my ex telling me he was 'firing blanks'. It just so happens that I fell pregnant despite not actively trying to get pregnant and taking the necessary steps to prevent pregnancy. But, I was mature enough to accept that this was a consequence of having sex, and I accepted my part in that. I took responsibility and so did my ex. The day after I told him he put in for a transfer and moved to another country, because he too took responsibility for his part in creating the pregnancy which resulted in my brilliant DD.

It's the measure of the person how they react and deal with their own personal responsibility when it comes to something like creating a pregnancy despite the efforts not to, or the lack of effort not to in some cases. I personally have an extremely low opinion of anyone who reacts by walking away, refusing to accept the consequences of their actions. The fact that a woman has some, very difficult, additional options after the pregnancy has happened, does not absolve any man of his responsibility for the actions he took while he still had a choice in what he did and how he did it.

Men have no say in the outcome of unwanted pregnancies

But they do have a say in how that pregnancy came about. They can choose to not have sex. They can choose to use a condom. They can choose to get the snip. They can choose non PIV sex. They can choose to step up and take responsibilty for the consequences of having had sex which resulted in pregnancy, or they can choose to walk away. Men have plenty of say in their own lives and how they conduct them.

Berts, you've just copied and pasted what I just said in my post, why? I do think if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant she should take responsibility for contraception, she is the one who will get pregnant. Why is that so difficult to understand?

You really think if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant she should just say well I'll let the man take care of it? If he has put a hole in the condom or it comes off, or something else goes wrong she'll just live with the consequences?

Like I said, when I was single I didn't want children, didn't feel I could fully trust partners, women lie about being on the pill or forget to take them etc, so I took the responsibility and didn't rely on anyone else.

It's very easy not to get pregnant. If you really don't want to.

Pill plus condoms. Belt and braces. I would never have relied on one method alone back when getting pregnant would have been disastrous for me.

Your body, your pregnancy - his baby too - but a much bigger impact on the woman so you take care of yourself.

Bunch, yes men can use contraception, choose not to have sex etc etc etc. I don't deny any of that, I just said when an unplanned pregnancy happens men have no choice in the outcome and that seemed unfair. It's just my opinion. Why it led to such an overblown argument I'm not sure although I'm beginning to think its because I'm a man.

Your post also complains about men having no say in unwanted pregnancies. I was pointing out that your comment that women should be the responsible person in regards to contraception needs to be reconsidered if you are then going to complain about men having no say in a pregnancy.

And where did I say a man should take care of it? I was pointing out that its not just the woman's responsibility like your post suggested. Both adults are equally responsible for ensuring contraception is used if they don't want a baby. A woman should ensure she uses the level of contraception she wants to but so should a man. It shouldn't all be down to one or the other like the part of your post I quoted suggests.

No one is saying women shouldnt use contraception. We are saying BOTH men amd women are responsible for their own fertility.

It may not seem fair that a man has no choice re abortion but it is the womams body so it has to be her choice. A man knows if he has sex and a woman hets preg that she may keep.the baby.

Its not fair that men can just walk away and ignore the responsibility of their child and then they still moan about paying a pittance for child maintenance. (i dont mean all men btw thankfully there are many great men out there) but to have sex and then try and abdicate responsibility because you didnt want a child is crap.

Am always amazed too at the number of accidents you read about on here. Use the pill and condoms together and there is very little chance you will end up pregnant. Protects both the man and woman then. There are lits of methods that can be used together.

When DS is old enough to have the talk, I will ensure he takes full responsibility for himself regardless of what the woman tells him. Many women lie about contraception or dont use it properly.

Theenemy don't you think it's significant that there is NO ANSWER to the dilemma you are posing. It's unfair that men can't choose, but you don't want to force a woman into choosing.

Because you can't compromise over a foetus that already exists, choice MUST be given to one person, do you see?

It's unfair in the way that life is sometimes, but not unfair by the woman. It's in her body. She must make the ultimate decision. It's the way things are.

What I think some men want, is not for them to force women, not for women to decide, but for women to agree with them.

They get upset if women have a different opinion.

And you know if I was a man and my girlfriend got pregnant due to a contraceptive failure, the situation might be frustrating if we wanted different things. But ultimately I'd hope that I would accept it, because the alternative is forcing your will on another person's body.

Women get pregnant.

Men don't get pregnant.

You can't have a baby OR abort a baby without it affecting the woman's body. There is no compromise. You can't have half a baby.

Consequently, the woman gets to choose.

Don't you see that if a woman chooses an alternative pathway to you, she is not being mean, she is not being unfair, she is simply disagreeing with you? It would be nice if everyone agreed on the right time to have a baby or on the right to abort but life isn't that simple.

Not sure why I'm explaining this again, just thought it was worth a try.

What amazes me is that anyone male or female, on the pill or not on the pill, sterilized or not would have casual sex without using a condom. I hear they can split but its never happened to me and I suspect most times people claim condoms have 'failed' its because they stay in the wrapper.