Some thoughts about "toxic" people

[flippinada]

I've read and contributed to a couple of threads where people are having to deal with what I would describe as toxic friends and family and the distress that it cause. I've had issues in the past with people this myself and it's really got me thinking.

Once thing that struck me from these threads, plus my own experience of toxic types is that there seems to be common "themes" - the one that immediately comes to mind is that the toxic person needs an enabler - usually a husband or wife who panders to their awful behaviour and colludes with them.

I know there's already a wonderful support thread (stately homes) but I thought it might be helpful to have a general discussion about how to identify these people and cope with them, plus a kind of support thing so folk know they aren't alone in having to deal with it alone?

Flippin - one thing mine used to do - I can laugh about it now - but it was so annoying at the time was - if service wasn't 100% she would ask for her money back. She was apparently annoyed by a light in the cinema so she demanded (and got) a full refund - er - so why wouldn't you just go and sit in a different seat. It was positively tiresome. People used to ask me why I was friends with her - I should have asked myself that one

Funnily enough, I used to get the same kind of comments from people! I should have listened.

I froze out a toxic friend years ago. she'd pushed me too far. When I wouldn't accept her friend request on FB she messaged my brother "why won't she talk to me, why won't she be friends with me, we used to be best friends" He said he wasn't going to type my reply! I'm so much better off. I don't have to justify myself, or be available 24hrs a day, or be the subject of teary self pitying rants. I also don't have to put up with her horrible parents. Apparently it was my fault she got pregnant at 17. because you know, one night I turned into a boy, f*ed her, got her pregnant, then became a girl again. They chose to tell me this at a New Years party. I'd arranged to stay overnight to have a drink and they waited til I'd had too many to drive home.

her incredible rudeness to wait staff

Oh God, yes. How interesting. All my toxic people embarrass me in restaurants, either by sitting there with a cat's bum face all the way through (yes, you, mother) or just being plain rude (various 'friends').

What I dont understand is the total lack of self awareness these people have. My H's family are all very toxic, they have alienated all their family except each other (and even then there are fall outs), have cut off most of their friends for spurious reasons (one being that a friend put all their wedding invites into one envelope to save postage as they lived in the same house!) and yet, it is NEVER them at fault.

How can someone really not see that if the rest of the world is sick of them then perhaps THEY are at fault?

That said there are some serious personality disorders in his family, at least 2 tick every box for NPD and another for NPD and for being a Sociopath. I suspect that when PD are in play, nothing makes sense.

Interesting about the toxic one eating out and trying to assert their ways then. Mother does things like ask for a salad with no lettuce (seriously, she does this), or ask what the soup is say she doesn't like it and have it anyway like she is doing them favour then leaves it in disgust.

Oh yes the horrible range of behaviours when eating out - tutting, sighing, pushing food around the tables...I an gritting my teeth just thinking about it.

Bogey I totally agree about self awareness but think if you tried yo understand it our work out why you'd go mad.

goodjam that is just awful. Trapping you and then doing that.

I do actually wonder if my ex friend had a pd. She was almost pathologically needy.

Another aspect which has popped into my head. Incredibly rude personal comments that are made out of the blue and leave you going wtf..did they really just say that?

Pushing food around the plate!

Very interesting read, glad this thread was started. I don't really know if my friend is toxic or not. She has always seemed to fall out with people though, had so many dramas in her life and made me feel rubbish on a good few occasions. We have been friends since high school. I was going to start a thread on her but worried she would find it.

When I broke up with my long term boyfriend when I was 22 she texted me to say that she was gaining responsibilities like becoming a wife and mother and I was losing all mine. I don't really know what that meant. She knew I was happy being single at that point. She was about to marry someone she had never been sure if she loved.

When the subject of me and my now DH trying for a baby came up she said "you are going to have sleepless nights, no money and cracked nipples. I am going to be travelling the world". No idea where her daughter fits into that... She is now divorced and I don't know if she's happy or not. She came to my house just before I got married and said "you really do have the perfect life". She can say nice things at times like chatting about my miscarriage but other times she can be nasty. Most calls/chats are 90% about her and 10% about me.

I was at a comedy gig one night and didn't take my mobile. I had numerous missed calls and texts, one which said "why are you never there for me when I need you?" I have always been there. I used to drop everything to go see her if she was having a bad time. I don't do that anymore and trying to distance myself but it's hard. I'm expecting now and she will want to see baby at some point, she lives in the same town as my parents. Not sure how to get out of it...

I've had my share of dealing with toxic family. I agree with much of what has been observed by others on this thread about power and control. I do believe that in the case of my mother she isn't aware of her own behaviour or that it is not reasonable or normal. My view is that toxic people usually had toxic parents themselves and so they then see their own children as their possessions and have a strange view of fairness and acceptable behaviour.

I had the misfortune of having to live with my parents during a spell of illness where I needed help to look after my children. It was absolute hell. But the strangest thing was that even though while I was at their house they constantly told me what an awful person I was and how they hated me and called me all names under the sun, when I finally moved out into my own place they couldn't stay away!!

My mother is goes on about how bad her life is, how she is 'entitled to' this and that, 'deserves to x,y,z' - the implication is always that I don't deserve anything nice because I'm a worse person than she is.

My therapist said that me moving out of their house got me away from the 'dance' they had me stuck in, in which they needed me to be there to play out their little games.

I have only read the first two and last two pages here, will catch up later (if strong enough!).

It is my sister for me. Superiority is, I think, the foundation for her supposed entitlements.

I was thinking on the term "toxic". Those who have the misfortune to experience it-get it-in an instant.

For those who have not had the experience (I hope you don't take that for granted!) it could be explained this way. One way to look at it is as if it is an allergy. As in: I am allergic to my sister. When ever I am around her I get ill. Decades of being degraded, diminished, one-uped, put down, condescended to, belittled: basically the whole menu of "Death By Ten Thousand Cuts" has created a sensitivity in me that I can no longer endure being around her.

Thanks for the thread, flip. It is good and necessary to vent, or even discover about this social dynamic.
bbl

The sheer amount of negative energy it takes to maintain that kind of behaviour...that's one of things that really baffles me. Aside from the behaviour aspect - it's just such hard work, so draining to keep it up.

this exactly!

My mother aged dramatically a couple of years ago and I can't help thinking its because of the never ending effort of exuding hate and poison for decade after decade. She waged war against my father (total enabler) and scapegoated me all my life. I never had a chance, it's taken me soooo long a journey to realise what damage was done and even start to repair it, and she's turned into a shriveled up poor uncertain little lady. I hate it, I feel like she's escaped somehow, just when I am ready to approach her as a strong aware woman, she's disappeared into this fragile shell. I wish I could just get over it, but I can't, it makes me so angry.

I think it took me so long as her whole abuse with me was that I wasn't allowed to have a self outside the one she gave me, wasn't allowed to exist as a person, just a cardboard cut out role to prop up the family dynamics. Just a twisted and fundamental thing that I had no way of telling anyone how awful my life was, & believe me I tried, & no one believed me/ understood/ could hear me... As a child or an adult.

In childhood probably cos of the less educated times i grew up in conpared to now (educated in abuse i mean) but also cos of the veneer of middle class perfection spread on top. For example, dont recognise the 'being nasty to restaurant staff' thing as that would have been far too public, but the kissing assassination that wohld have happened after, yup, had that!

In adulthood I searched for the story, the script I guess that fitted the way I was brought up, but didn't find it until two things happened - first I found the most insightful and fresh councellor who cut through the narratives that didn't fit, that others tried to put on it (more usual abuse narratives I guess, or 'personality clashes' etc)... And he just reframed it so it was about family dynamics, not just between me and them, and it all fell into place. The other thing was I had Ds and I think like other people on here, I had that bolt of lightening realization that there can never be an excuse for treating your own darling vulnerable child in a fucked up cruel way.

Finding thinking about what she did to me very triggering - i find it hard to keep that in my head as a 'fact'. It had such a profound effect on my whole being, that my memory and really basic brain things are affected.

getting really upset now so can't go into more.

But thanks for this thread as I had parents to stay for the weekend and it's helped me remember why I am in the place I am now, and it's reasonable to feel this anger and hurt.

God, this thread is depressing me. I had a pretty hard childhood and some of the things I've read here, are my Mum to a tee. The funny thing is that my Dad was very, very ill throughout my childhood and had some sort of epiphany and changed himself in my early teens. My Mum, on the other hand.... Still a "poor me", glass half-empty sort of person.

Any given situation is "all about her". I became a histrionic sort of person until, oh, I don't know, when I had my son, I think. Now I'm much more introverted and a loner and tend to play things down.

I still feel really bad about the histrionics, but I think that the total lack of emotional input from my parents when I was a child, had a lot to do with it.

I shout at my kids, but especially my son. He's 15 going on 16 and is a huge pain a lot of the time. Unfortunately, he blames everyone else for him losing things etc. and it just presses my buttons...... But I try so hard not to be like my Mum

.......yes, the 'entitled', childish, rude 'stamping of the feet' streak goes on, doesn't it?

A few years ago, my niece (mentioned earlier), got married in Italy. My Mum was her 'Mother Of The Bride' replacement, as my dsis was estranged from the family by then. My mum made it known to everybody that she was the 'MOTB', but would she contribute any kind of help, albeit financially (the easy part)? No...

My Dad had to do a speech, but would Mum help him write it? No....she couldn't POSSIBLY know what to put, but it 'wasn't her job, anyway'. She was the MOTB. I ended up writing it.

She was asked by my niece to say a just a couple of words, however informal, at the meal, but would she? 'I couldn't possibly' ...No. Well, you get the drift....

I was asked by her and Dad to book them a room at the hotel before the wedding, which we did, as they don't have internet. She wanted a normal room, with half board tarrif. I warned her there were no balconies, but she said she was fine with that, booked the room, she paid up and that was that....til she got to the hotel, and stood there stamping her feet and crying, in front of everybody else, demanding a balcony as she was, yes, you guessed it, MOTB. Utterly pathetic....done nothing for her again since.

So many more stories I could tell.

She is now a means to an end. Her house is a base for me to be able to see other members of the family as I mentioned earlier. Its the only way I can be, instead of being sucked up into her nasty little world.

But am I happy about 'using' her? No. Because I'm mourning the loss of a Mothers love and affection, and she has reduced me to compromising my good nature. Controlling my feelings. Does that sound bitter at all? Sorry for waffling on..

Crushed - waffle away - thats awful. I'm sure I'm not the only one finding this thread cathartic. You can moan, waffle be bitter and angry just let it all out ..........

I've definitely found it freeing to write things here. although it is also making me think of other things that have happened that I haven't mentioned, so I'm having the odd moments of anger at my nan and sadness for my mum, aunt and one uncle (the other 2 were golden boys in her eyes)

Dothraki, thanks.I'd worry though that if I did waffle away, I'd take all the thread space available on MN for a whole week LOL. Like us all, I bet.

Lemon, my mums mantra is 'what about me?' too. Exaggerated hand on chest at the 'me' bit.

Double, yep, always wondered where they get the energy from. Mine does the 'confused little lady'act too.

They know what they're doing though, make no mistake. Whenever she bumps into my dh's parents, she gushes about how happy she is that we're happy (MIL tells us), then has a dig at us if we change the car, or go on a nice holiday, or look 'too happy for our own good'..

Goodjam, I agree its free-ing to get things out. Do you think we are grieving somewhere for the kind of relationships that we wanted, but never had, with our Mums, or other family members who are toxic?

I'm on my way to bed but just wanted to check in. There's a lot I'd like to say but find it hard to articulate.

If it's not too boaky sounding, my thoughts are with you all. Thank you for posting!

Goodnight flip, not boaky at all. Goodnight to everyone xxxx

Goodnight - see you all tomorrow x

Seems to me that miserable people are only content if they can drag everyone around them into their nightmare. Thinking my mother. Massively toxic "friend".

I can recognise and label the behaviour, but I still have trouble keeping enough distance. Why is this?

I don't know why my mother is so awful. I didn't know her in her early years but her siblings seem nice and normal. From what I've seen of them, at least. Of course she wasn't speaking to any of them or her in laws by the time dc were on the scene so we didn't get to know them.

These kind of people seem to fall out with other folk, especially family members, all the time. It seems to be a common theme.

The being nice to somebodies face and then ripping them to shreds afterwards seems to be another favourite.

Yep, my mother goes between her two sisters, not speaking to one for years then moving on to the other one. She also is always complaining about someone or another and I just know she does it about me to my siblings too. She really had it in for my SIL a few years ago, poor love couldn't do anything and she is such a sweetheart.

Really moved, and feel very supported here - thanks to all who shared.

My mum was the kind of person who made checkout ladies miserable, and berated overworked tired sales assistants. For a while, I was like that too. I learned it from her. She was like that because she was always afraid - of mean girls, of people looking down on her. So she out-meaned the mean girls, got in first. I suddenly understood how stupid it was when I was in my thirties.

Another former friend announced that she was not going to take any shit anymore. This new life strategy meant berating everyone over imagined slights. I think therefore that the 'toxic' are often defensive, like Republicans, constantly armed against perceived enemies.