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Some thoughts about "toxic" people

474 replies

flippinada · 10/03/2013 14:51

I've read and contributed to a couple of threads where people are having to deal with what I would describe as toxic friends and family and the distress that it cause. I've had issues in the past with people this myself and it's really got me thinking.

Once thing that struck me from these threads, plus my own experience of toxic types is that there seems to be common "themes" - the one that immediately comes to mind is that the toxic person needs an enabler - usually a husband or wife who panders to their awful behaviour and colludes with them.

I know there's already a wonderful support thread (stately homes) but I thought it might be helpful to have a general discussion about how to identify these people and cope with them, plus a kind of support thing so folk know they aren't alone in having to deal with it alone?

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CaptChaos · 13/03/2013 12:46

Since I started calling my mother on her lies, she's stopped telling them in front of me, sadly this means that she does it behind my back all the time. At any gathering, she will grab my friends or DH and tell them truly awful lies about me, terrible things, that I have been in prison, am a druggie, all sorts. Luckily, all my friends know that she will do this and just smile and nod at her, but that's not the point! I know why she does it as well, she has spent such a huge amount of time telling anyone that would listen that I am rubbish and useless that, now that I am finally (in my 40's) not being what she wanted, she can't stand it and does everything she can to sabotage it. I am happily married, have a good few good friends and my boys are both doing well.... what a terrible person I am!!

The gifts thing... yes! I have, for the last few years, received exactly the same gift every Christmas. The same scent (which I'm not keen on) and a £20 candle. I'm sure that, if I liked the scent and 'did' the candles thing, this would be marvelous, but I don't, so.... it's like she's buying for someone she doesn't know at all!

The awful behaviour in restaurants.... yes to this as well! It actually makes me cringe. I have apologised to servers before now because of the way she has spoken to them.

In fact, apologising seems to be one thing I am incredibly good at. Apologising to her for whatever awful infraction I have committed this time, apologising to my ex for leaving him after his abuse (which she made me do, because in her mind at least he hadn't abused me), I had deserved to be hit etc because I am so difficult to live with, apologising for things I haven't done, apologising endlessly for things I have done. Lots of apolgising!

Roll on my DH being made redundant so we can emigrate and I will never have to apologise again! (unless it's appropriate!)

dothraki · 13/03/2013 13:17

I'm currently reading Zero degrees of empathy by Simon Baron-Cohen. He mentions about people not getting moral reasoning - for my tormentor this is just so true. For example "is stealing wrong" Tormentor "yes", "So is it wrong to steal food for your starving children" - Tormentor "yes - its stealing" and for her that is the end of the debate. She just cannot comprehend that there could possibly be more to it than that Hmm
Capt - I had to laugh - do you think all the poor waiters/bar staff etc. have special lessons in how to deal with these people ? As we've all witnessed these behaviours, but I have never seen any staff been anything but charming and bending over backwards to help them. Do you think they have a code word like red alert we've got another one in -table 5 the lady in the red dress - and does it cost us a fortune in tips as we feel so guilty about their behaviour Grin. I bet they have never tipped any one - unless it is to show off how much ££££££ they have

flippinada · 13/03/2013 13:35

Hmmmm...interesting. I reckon you get a lot of "tormentor" types posting in AIBU!

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dothraki · 13/03/2013 13:41

flipp Grin

dothraki · 13/03/2013 13:43

now we know where they are
in the middle of bf/ff fights
all car parking threads
in fact just look for the bunfight Grin

flippinada · 13/03/2013 15:49

Yes, never let it be said that they leave any opportunity to shit stir unused Grin

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toomanyfionas · 13/03/2013 18:14

I have five siblings. The golden child has cancer. I can't help but feel this is her body bucking from the pressure of carrying my mother's toxicity. A terrible burden to bear.

crushedintherush · 13/03/2013 18:24

Helloooo, just checking in. Wow, more posts, more personal experiences, more wonderful support Grin

It's unbelievable/unfortunate just how many toxic people there are.

There is nothing wrong with us, it's definitely them...doesn't stop me thinking about the times my Mum said there was something wrong with me, mostly when I tried to stand up to her. Never did have much self confidence, now I know why.

I have been getting angry the last 48 hours over the things she has said/done, especially when more important things have been rearing their ugly head.

Her snidey remarks/ putdowns pale in comparison compared to my dh's recent experience with cancer. He had chemo today as a precaution, to stop his cancer coming back. Such a wonderful man, my dh, so much more important than her. Yet she is hardly ever ill, oh, sorry, apart from the 'imagined' illnesses...where is the bloody justice???

LineRunner · 13/03/2013 18:26

toomany and crushed, hope you are both doing ok.

I have no contact at all with my mother. So sad; but life is much quieter now.

crushedintherush · 13/03/2013 18:30

sorry toomany, just seen your post, it took me ages to write mine. I spent too much time editing/adding/deleting the swear words....

I hope the cancer is curable for golden child Thanks. That in itself will be justification Smile

crushedintherush · 13/03/2013 18:40

Fine thanks linerunner. It was testicular cancer, luckily the most treatable one of all (didn't feel like it at the time).

They took it all out, but he wanted the precautionary dose of chemo to be shut of it once and for all, to carry on with his life....rotten start to the New Year, but we've now crossed the finishing line Grin

It always seems to happen to the good ones, doesn't it?

crushedintherush · 13/03/2013 18:45

linerunner, I agree it is sad. Like the loss of a parent. Or more precisely, the loss of a parents love. Is that how you feel?

I think its sad, even though I'm still in touch with my Mum (not too often, and I'm happier for it).

dothraki · 13/03/2013 18:45

Crushed - so sorry about your dh.ThanksWine

toomanyfionas · 13/03/2013 18:55

Thanks linerunner and crushed. I am pretty good thanks. My sister is in her last days but of course my mother's take on this is self pity. I feel pretty philosophical about it all these days, almost like an observer rather than a participant.

Crushed I'm so sorry for what you're going through. How are you coping?

toomanyfionas · 13/03/2013 18:59

linerunner it is very sad to have no contact with your mother. It's all wrong isn't it. I am painfully aware that I may be burdening my dc with issues but I hope there is enough good for them to thrive and enjoy their lives the way they choose, and to know and feel how much I love them. I struggle to understand how mothers like yours and mine can be so cruel.

crushedintherush · 13/03/2013 19:02

thanks doth, glad its all over now, just outpatients appts for him to go to every few weeksSmile

Still angry that things like cancer happen to the best of us, while the toxic ones get away with good health.

I bet she'll still be alive when she's 90.. Sad

crushedintherush · 13/03/2013 19:11

toomany, so sorry about your sister. My dh's experience was just the tip of the iceberg compared to what you're going throughWine Thanks .

How dare your mum show only self pity at a time like thIs !! JESUS !!Angry Angry Angry

crushedintherush · 13/03/2013 19:19

capt, I understand what you mean about the apologising bit. Found myself doing that on many occasions. Don't think I've done it for a long time now. Why the Hell should we apologise? Should be the other way round...

Sorry if I keep dipping in and out of posts here, reading bits as I go along and replying.

Got a headache developing, so bear with me Smile

flippinada · 13/03/2013 20:22

crushed glad top read your husband is doing well and toomany so sorry to hear about your sister. Your mother sounds appalling Angry and I'm sorry you have that in your life. Sending warm thoughts to both of you.

While reading this thread I've been mentally composing a list of toxic behaviours that seem to keep repeating. If people are interested I'll put the list on here so you can all see what you think?

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ohmygoshandgolly · 13/03/2013 20:23

There are some really terrible experiences on this thread and I am recognising so many similarities with my relationship with my mother.

As with us all, there are so many occasions where I have been on the receiving end of my mother's toxicity - it is just the norm now. I know that every phone call, family gathering or visit to her house is going to be difficult.

I really identify with what Doublelife said about not being allowed a life outside the one her mother gave her. My mother wanted carbon copies of herself, two daughters she could manipulate, play off against each other and control. My dad has always been her enabler, without a doubt. But both my sister and I have, at different times in ours lives, also played that role.

Once we found lives of our own; boyfriends, husbands, children, she couldn't cope with the lack of control over us.

Two days after I had my first child, when I was a hormonal wreck, battered from a traumatic delivery and trying to make sense of it all; she sat in my son's room, as I struggled to feed him, and she cried, saying that she had nothing worth living for, and that my son would "turn on me". My beautiful, innocent baby. I can never forgive her for trying to ruin my chance at motherhood. Four years on, I feel anger, resentment and sadness.

I have tried to keep her at arms length since then and i feel sad that, unlike so many of my friends, I don't have a supportive mother to champion my own attempts at being a parent. Her words haunt me and there are so many other things she has said to undermine my capability as a mother.

I find that I am punishing her by not giving her time with her grandchildren, basically because I feel so uncomfortable in her company. We see them about once a month. But is this fair on my DCs? How do those of you with toxic parents, help your own children to have a relationship with their grandparents?

dothraki · 13/03/2013 20:30

Ohmygosh - thats awful. I have no advice on that but here Wine.

flippinada · 13/03/2013 20:48

Ohmygosh I'm not surprised you feel resentful. Given your mothers awful behaviour, are you sure you want your DC to have a relationship with her?

I understand that you feel bad but the responsibility for all this lies with her, not you. She's the one missing out because of her behaviour and that's not your fault.

As everyone on here will know though, much, much easier said than done.

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LimeLeafLizard · 13/03/2013 20:53

flippinada please do post your list of toxic behaviours repeated here. I have been watching the thread with interest but haven't yet managed to gather my thoughts sufficiently to summarise my experience.

toomanyfionas · 13/03/2013 21:21

ohmygosh go with your instinct. If you don't want to see your mother, distance yourself. You have my permission! She cannot be good for you or your dc.

My big moment was when my first child was born, too. My mother said she was a terrible baby, the worst she'd ever come across, and that I didn't know what I was doing and would probably kill her. She went on and on about her being fat (she was 7lbs) to the point that I reduced feeds. Looking back I feel awful that I starved my tiny, helpless newborn and exposed her to the poison that is my mother. I vowed to never see her again.

However, at around the 2yr mark I decided to allow minimum contact. I'd had time to strengthen and work out how I wanted to parent, to cherish my child and not apologise for that. And since then I have allowed occasional contact, but never leave the dc alone with her. Remarkably, my adoration of them seems to have rubbed off on her and she thinks they are the best things since sliced bread! Not sure how this tallies with general toxic relationships but there is something up thread about people not treating you badly if you don't let them and I think that in changing myself she was forced to change a smidge.

It's a tough one though. I think we hold onto hope that our mothers will one day show us the love and tenderness we long for, no matter how awful they are.

flippinada · 13/03/2013 21:25

Ok here's my list of 'common' toxic behaviours. Just to kick around some thoughts/ideas and not definitive or anything. I've been thinking about this a lot over the last few days.

  • childish behaviour when confronted/challenged, like tantrumming and sulking.
  • overly negative/pessimistic outlook - everybody is out to get them so they get their licks in first
  • have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement.
  • enjoys creating drama/conflict and will find an opportunity to do so in the most innocuous scenarios.
  • suffers from frequent, undefined illnesses which they use to exert control .
  • refusal to take responsibility and an expectation (entitlement again) that others will take responsibility for them.
-always falling out with people, often for completely spurious reasons.
  • rudeness to anyone they consider 'beneath' them, for example wait staff.
  • requires an enabler

Interested to hear what you all think.

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