Some thoughts about "toxic" people

[flippinada]

I've read and contributed to a couple of threads where people are having to deal with what I would describe as toxic friends and family and the distress that it cause. I've had issues in the past with people this myself and it's really got me thinking.

Once thing that struck me from these threads, plus my own experience of toxic types is that there seems to be common "themes" - the one that immediately comes to mind is that the toxic person needs an enabler - usually a husband or wife who panders to their awful behaviour and colludes with them.

I know there's already a wonderful support thread (stately homes) but I thought it might be helpful to have a general discussion about how to identify these people and cope with them, plus a kind of support thing so folk know they aren't alone in having to deal with it alone?

[Stardust123]

How do I get over that niggly feeling that it's me and not them?! Why can other people cope with her and not me, is it because I'm the only sibling !?

Somebody convince me please !!!!!

Had a great weekend with not many obsessive thoughts, I did a toxic personality test for her, and she came over very toxic. Read that we obsess because we are afraid or that we obsess over things that we don't want to happen in our lives - can anyone help me with this.

The obsessing only started when her husband died as I convinced myself I was going to have to put up with her moans, groans and ailments for the next 20 years and look after her in her old age, with no one else to take it on, apart from her son. Because she has been bereaved, it makes it so much harder, feel like a horrid person. I'm not in contact any more, why don't I feel better !!

Fed Up!

[WafflyVersatile]

I've only just seen this thread so not read it all. apols if this has already been covered.

I'm a bit confused why 'you' are a victim of an abusive person, but their husband/wife/whoever is an enabler. Surely they are also victims of an abusive person. Especially as they probably spend more time with them and can escape less easily.

[crushedintherush]

waffly - I hear what you are saying. I think that an 'enabler', is a victim too.

By either keeping quiet, or by encouragement, the enablers are giving the narc carte blanche to behave the way they do, as the narc sees this as an acceptance of their behaviour.

They are too close to the narc to see a way out (maybe via threats by the narc that if the enabler tries to leave, etc etc), so they find the easy option just to go along with what the narcs do, afraid of the consequences. The problem then is the narc continues to pile misery on the family.

Or they know no better in life, always being put down by somebody else, and the option of meeting somebody else who will respect them and offer a normal life, is scary.

It reminds me of that saying, somehow. 'keep your friends close, but your enemies closer'.

That seems to extend to family, sadly

Or maybe I'm wrong.

[crushedintherush]

My thoughts below are mainly aimed at my Dad, by the way, the enabler to mum.

Do others see this in the enablers in their family, or is it just my dad ? Bless him.....

[BellyChancer]

Where is the toxic quiz? not that i'm in any doubt. i agree with that paragraph at top of this page, you can make your own rules of engagement too, even if that is with total disengagement.

[Stardust123]

This was the site I found the toxic quiz on, when I did it last Thursday, I immediately felt relief and realised, hang on, it's not all my fault. Had a really good 2 days after this, when the obsessive thoughts started again. Going to invest more into cutting ties with my toxic person ! Hope this helps folks.
www.toxicrelationshipsbook.com/

[AndTheBandPlayedOn]

Stardust,
I'm glad you had a couple of good days.
It is not you, it is her. With one hundred thousand million billion percent metaphysical certitude, it is not you, it is her.

In a box, with a fox, it is not you, it is her. On a train, in the rain, it is not you, it is her.

Another thought that helps me, and this concerns the obsessive invasive thoughts, is that "my life is about me". So, your life is not about your mom, or your dad...your life is not about your sister: your life is about you. That kind of turns the dynamic on its head a little bit in terms that we understand. We are so so tired of our sister's' lives - EVERYTHING being about them and we can say it in those terms. But I have found it helpful to shift the focus off her and onto me where my focus rightfully, healthily, belongs.

Of course, as our lives are about us, their lives are about them. But they take the concept and run with it. They unfurl a huge umbrella where anything in their range is about them too. They choose to do that and we are not part of that decision. We are just the unfortunate souls to be within their "feeding" range. I am glad that you have stepped out of range.

A book I found helpful is called "The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists" available on Amazon.

[Stardust123]

Thanks AndTheBandPlayedOn, not had a bad day today, feeling a bit more positive so that's good. My life is about me, my kids and husband and no one else, you are right. I will have a look for the book on Amazon. Thanks for the hundred thousand million billion percent! I can be sure it is her and not me! Did anyone take the toxic quiz ?

[AndTheBandPlayedOn]

Hi Stardust,
I had a quick look at the website but couldn't download the quiz on my techno-thing. I'll look at it soon. And perhaps get the book too and give to sister "hey, someone wrote your biography".

[AndTheBandPlayedOn]

Hi Stardust,
I took the quiz, a la my sister, and the score was 136...not that I needed any validation but it is nice anyway. The only Never answer that I had was the one about generosity...however her "generosity" was purchasing license to have moral authority...strings attached.

How are you doing? I am sewing again (for me ) a quilt for my dd (for my family ).

[CutMyFringe]

OK, I've read much of this thread and alarm bells are ringing.

My mother: always critical of gifts, emotionally distant, says things (and always has done), such as 'You don't want to do X, do you?' (thus putting a dampener on anything I might have actually wanted to do; when I did succeed, I'd get, 'I knew it would be easy for you' (dismissing how hard I'd actually tried); if I cocked something up, 'Is that all you got? (grade/salary etc).

She never even asked to come shopping with me when I got engaged and was looking for a dress.

She can bring up references to the part of my family connected to someone who abused me without even realising she is hurting me...

Her coldness used to deeply frustrate and sadden me when I was small; I was insecure and felt rejected. I remember asking her at three if she loved me as she was so full-on with her cousin's kid in a way I never saw her with me.

She asked me why I couldn't be more like friend X when I was about six.

She would never stick up for me if I was in trouble. (I once told her that a boy at school had pulled down my pants and nothing happened; I was five. When a drunk on a bus tried to grope me, she said nothing at all but her friend shouted instead).

She once threatened to kill me when I was cheeky (that was the reason, IIRC) and then would bring it up again and say on occasions: 'you know what I'll do if you don't do what I say, don't you?'

And then she can be very generous, too, helping me out financially. (She does expect big gifts though and will criticise everything I buy, so I only ever get her something she has specifically asked for, as it is so hurtful. I bought her a bottle of wine and cake to thank her for something and she said the wine was acidic and the cake was full of chocolate and kept my dad awake!!)

WTAF? I mean, really??

[CutMyFringe]

To be clear - the incident when I was five, I meant to say that she did nothing about it despite me being terribly upset as it happened outside in school grounds and the boy and his friend were laughing at me. I had wanted to see him told off, or me assured it was not acceptable, or something. She did bugger all.

A therapist once said that it seemed I didn't know my mother at all. I called her an enigma. Perhaps she is simply toxic.

[CutMyFringe]

Oh, and she told me quite casually, when I was 8.5 months pregnant (and poorly with it) that her friend had had a stillbirth at that stage.

Fucking hell.

[Stardust123]

Hi everyone, I have finally cut contact yesterday with my sister. I realise now how toxic she has been over the years. I called her the other day, all she talked about was herself in that fast, matter of fact tone that she uses. I said, you know what, just forget it, then she put the phone down on me (mature or what !). She would not admit that she has her faults and admitted she won't change. I actually said to her, you need to look up toxic personality on the internet and think about it. I realise you know what I am 43 now and I can do what the hell I want. Can't stand the woman ! I still feel quite raw and anxious, but I hope I can get her out my head asap. Here I am agonising about terminating the relationship, and she's actually not that bothered, which tells me something. Cut My Fringe, it seems clear to me that there's lots of stuff with you going back years and years, go and talk to a counsellor, they really help you deal with any issues. I fear my sisters son will have these issues when he's older. It's funny that its the little things you remember all your life. Get the toxic book by Lillian Glass, I have started reading it this week and it helps. By the way I have 3 brilliant sister-in-laws which are worth ten of her and I intend nurturing those relationships instead. It's so hard when it's a close family member. It seems worse for me, cos I was thinking of cutting contact before she was bereaved, suddenly she was bereaved and I panicked and worried that I was going to have to have her in her life more than i wanted to and be there to listen to every drama, moan, groan, problem etc. etc. , care for her when she's older etc. No wonder I have suffered with anxiety !

[sashh]

oh god yes flippinada!!! I remember my dear mum's tantrum on xmas day cos she did not get enough attention/presents

We used to have presents under the tree, mum opened all hers before Xmas and then had a paddy because she had nothing to open. Apparently we were supposed to buy a second present.

[AndTheBandPlayedOn]

Well done, Stardust!!! Don't look back. You know what is back there and you know you definitely want to give it a miss!

CutMyFringe, crikey what a time you must have had. Look into the books by John Bradshaw, Homecoming, etc. They help with resolving dysfunctional childhood/toxic parent experiences.

[Stardust123]

Thanks AndTheBandPlayedOn, it has helped so much to read this thread, yeah I definately want to give it all a miss, thanks to everyone who has posted recently. xxx

[AndTheBandPlayedOn]

[CutMyFringe]

Thanks from me too, ATBPO. I'm really struggling with accepting how its been and think 'is that not what happens to everyone?' at times.

I would be horrified to turn out like my mother. I've always aspired, from a young age, not to emulate her.

Stardust - good for you - onwards and upwards!

[AndTheBandPlayedOn]

I am glad that I could help Stardust, and Cutmyfringe.

It is hard for me when I see "normal" people and have constantly be on guard regarding my responses that come from the 'road less travelled' (and not in a good way, iykwim).

I have also found it difficult to let go of the sadness of thinking how my life might have been, had my upbringing checked all the right boxes and none of the wrong ones. That is something that I can not change, however. So it was a part of the loooong string of box cars that I unhooked from my freight train of baggage and left it behind on a very remote and now completely (I hope) unused siding.

Cutmyfringe, you had no choice in accepting it or not as a child. You do as an adult, however, which validates the concept of no contact (people that have not had the experiences we have just don't, and never will, get that).

I, also, did not wish my children to be parented the way I was (I am guessing that is part of you not turning out like her, CMF). I may have made the mistake of going a little too far the other way, in respecting their opinions and choices a little too much as they were growing up. I don't think it is possible to perfectly parent a child, so I have a policy of apologizing if things don't go so well or if I made a mistake or just didn't know in a given circumstance.

[dothraki]

Andtheband - but you are right. I imagine there is no such thing as perfect parenting. I don't even know if you can tell if you've done it right. I would swear blind that I bought mine up the same - but they really are chalk and cheese. They could not be more different. Your awareness is what will make you a good mum.
Apparently mine doesn't understand the whole no contact bit
We have deliberately not seen her since October.
Yesterday she declared to dh that she will never see me again - well thats a fucking relief.
Though she did try a damage limitation excercise - by getting her dh to ring me - so I wouldn't go to the police
I think I must have upset her
Maybe that was when I asked her if she knew who her dh was shagging
Actually something else upset her - but I will reclaim the moral high ground and not mention that

[flippinada]

I am so glad people are still finding this thread useful and coming here for support.

I may need to ask for some myself as I've just had a conversation with my friend which has really upset me. It's not down to her being awful, but more being frustrated and distressed by what she said. Essentially, I suggested she might be happier if she couldn't cut contact with her Mum (long history here). Her response was basically..well. I don't know how to describe it, but it was like something a victim of DV would say .

I'm not sure how I can helpfully respond, to be honest.

[dothraki]

flippin - I had the same a few weeks ago A friend who is the scapegoat, her db is the golden child. She was telling me her tales of woe, and I said it sounded like her mum was a narc.
This is a highly educated woman. I felt sad as she just carried on ranting about her M. I began to wonder if it was just too late to help her. I said she should go NC - but I think its all so ingrained - that now her dc treat her like shit too. I don't know if I can help her.
She didn't acknowledge my comment. To be fair she is having a really bad time, and every one of her family seem to be against - so maybe she was so busy ranting that she didn't take in what I said.
I think I will try again at a later date

[AuntieMaggie]

Can I ask a question? Even after you've distanced yourself from a toxic person how do you protect yourself from the stuff they say to other people about you especially when its bullshit?

[dothraki]

AuntieMaggie - thats a hard one. Don't know if there is an answer.