Some thoughts about "toxic" people

[flippinada]

I've read and contributed to a couple of threads where people are having to deal with what I would describe as toxic friends and family and the distress that it cause. I've had issues in the past with people this myself and it's really got me thinking.

Once thing that struck me from these threads, plus my own experience of toxic types is that there seems to be common "themes" - the one that immediately comes to mind is that the toxic person needs an enabler - usually a husband or wife who panders to their awful behaviour and colludes with them.

I know there's already a wonderful support thread (stately homes) but I thought it might be helpful to have a general discussion about how to identify these people and cope with them, plus a kind of support thing so folk know they aren't alone in having to deal with it alone?

God yes hecate

Everything - I remember your other thread. I am struggling too with the anger. It feels like I am the only one who is angry about what she has done. She has been vile about me, dh, her dm and db. Dh is shattered, and I am angry - the others are in her thrall. She can do no wrong, when bad things happen - like her h cheating - she just airbrushed it out of her life - her h also rang us and said it didn't happen. Everyone thinks they are the perfect family - why oh why can't they see the truth.

I completely agree with you Hecate, they need to be treated like naughty toddlers.

Although, a common theme seems to be a lack of friends. You would think that they would be able to see that the lack of friends has something to do with their behaviour.

Ginebra that really rings a bell with me, there was one famous incident where I needed to borrow some money to get a car, she agreed to lend me some. A week later was my birthday and she handed me a card, when I opened it, it had cash in it, she proudly announced that this was the loan and also gave me her account numbers to organise the repayment. I would have done that anyway, I had every intention of doing it.

It is all falling into place, my mother also has no friends.

My mum is a terrible present giver. She either grabs something out of a cupboard (she would blatantly regift stuff I bought her with my own pocket money as a child), or buys you what she thinks you should have regardless of whether you like/want it or not. Also she used to buy stuff for me suitable for a 10yo child when I was well into adulthood. She bought me the same stuff every Christmas and then complained I didn't ever use it it never occurred to her to maybe buy me something I wanted, that I would use. It was definitely me at fault.

However buying her presents was horrible as no matter how much effort you put in she would never be grateful or even pleased. Mostly she would go on a rant about how she hated 'materialism' but God forbid you didn't put in effort or worse didn't get her anything, all hell would break loose.

TheCrackfox, I think that is what attracted my xnark to me. I had friends. Good friends who genuinely liked me. but after meeting him he was condescending to them, luke warm in his responses to their efforts to get to know him. So then, I would be invited places without him and he 'd be so angry. He had a nasty remark about ALL of my friends. They kept quiet about him really. Apart from comments like 'Are you sure he's what you want?'. But they didn't trash him the way he trashed them. Anyway, ironic, he wanted my friends but then he demonised them.

Hecate great post, I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Looking in from outside, it's easier to say than do when you're involved in it, because you're trained, often from birth, to behave in a certain way.

My friend (eg) will not stand up to her mum at all. She insists the fall out isn't worth it, and it seems like the entire family (dys)functions around pandering to her mothers horrible behaviour. I want to yell "so bloody what if she has a tantrum, just let her get on with it!!"

"You would think that they would be able to see that the lack of friends has something to do with their behaviour"

Yes, I don't get this either. How can you not make the connection?

dothraki I feel like the black sheep a lot of the time, my sisters enable her behaviour (easy for them 300 miles away) and db can seem to just shake it off, I am the angry one. Why can't I be like db?? (Does it make a difference he has no children for her to be obsessed over think about?

Flippinada, to go back to a point you made in your second post, pages back now, but it just caught my eye, I ALSO wonder why they don't figure out in a logical way over time that you catch more flies with honey, ie, be nice. I know my x has no empathy. But he does have intelligence, and so I half expect him to use his intelligence at some point to join up the dots and figure out that being an abusive controlling bully hasn't worked out that well for him, and to maybe, try being nice for a while.

and it ties in with not making any connections! yes exactly!! they've no empathy. That we understand. But they aren't totally stupid, so why does their intelligence not make the connection at some point?

Was brought up by a mother who I would say was more borderline than narc. Hysterical explosions, absolute self-obsession, violent verbal abuse, intrusive, etc.

I've been terrified of turning into her and suffer a lot from depression but some of the tantruming/ abusive behaviour I also mirrored in my time.

I feel so terribly ashamed of it and try so hard now not to be like that but it is sometimes very hard to control my temper. She screamed and yelled all day and got away with it entirely, everyone obeyed her and dad told us all the time how wonderful she was. I think there is a part of me that could go the same way and every day I have to fight it. These days get absolutely poleaxed with guilt if I behave like her. Hmm I guess this is the lesson of my life, to break those patterns.

ginebra don't you think that either they have no capacity for empathy (like sociopaths) or somehow it never developed for them? The creation of the 'special victim' identity described by hecate above is important here I think. They feel unhappy and sorry for themselves, yet they disregard, fear and despise others (if they even notice them).

It probably is easier from outside, but it's doable from inside.

My father's family were dreadful. His mother did the whole 'take to my bed with a headache' thing and the whole lot of them would be begging and pleading with her . I remember one time being at her house when she took offence at something and she went and sat at the bottom of the garden.

I cut them off at 16 after she screamed down the phone that she wanted nothing more to do with me. (because I wouldn't obey and go to stay with them after coming out of hospital) she wanted nothing more to do with me - she got it.

then the lot of them decided she was the victim so they got binned too.

And my own mother is tricky and had to be told once that she needed to shape up or ship out.

If there is one thing I have learned it is that people will treat you how you allow them to treat you!

If someone's priority is to keep the peace at all costs then they must accept that people will wipe their feet on them.

No thanks. I've had my fill of that.

Armadillo I've got a theory that they have a 'need' to create scenarios where their target is in the wrong. Gift giving seems to be a popular conduit for this, probably to do with its emotional significance.

Ginebra - good point. When they see being nice works why wouldn't they think hey, that's a good idea?

my mother is borderline as well. I hesitate to use the word toxic as 95% of the time she is normal. It's only when we disagree that I am made feel foolish. or Awkward. And recently I overheard her saying something about me and I said 'eh,hello, like, standing right here' and then she was very crisp with me that I'd embarrassed her, and she went from zero to WOUNDED in about three seconds, and there was no room for me to say, hang on, you were the one trashing me in public and I heard. Can we recap on why you're angry with me?? she just wasn't going to HEAR it. I got a rundown of all she did for me (and it's true, she does a lot for me........ ). But anyway, although mostly she is normal, I think that's why I ended up in an abusive relationship later. And now, I seem to have inadvertently engaged some randomer in circular defensive arguments. ('m putting a stop to that right now though.)

I was reading some of the stuff on that site i linked to earlier about the children of toxic parents and how they can be underachievers, stuck. that is me. Although my mum is honestly not that bad, she would be incandescent with white rage is she knew that I even thought that sometimes she could be toxic. Just sometimes.

flip, i don't think my x has been nice long enough to see patterns emerging!

Hecate I felt my teeth beginning to grind reading your post because I know people like that and they just make me go aaaaaarrrggghhhh!!! Manipulating through feigned illness seems to be a common tactic. Again I notice a theme, headaches are popular.

You are absolutely right of course but it seems such a difficult thing for people to deal with.

Ginebra - what I mean is, just by seeing through these people you put yourself at risk. if you have your own view of them (rather than their view of them) then they are going to drama bait you/smear/discredit you

THIS yes, yes, yes.

@ boltingbrenda yes. And I got away from my x, and I understand why he was the way he is, and that's all good, and I'm so self-aware, blah blah blah! and I even see some McToxic-lite behaviour in my own Mother, but, this beady eyed awareness makes me a target for this other randomer.

Have you had experience of this too!? what did you do. I am jus ttrying to disengage TOTALLY even though a few mutual acquaintances might briefly think 'huh?' luckily this person is somebody I can avoid totally.

I know. It's really sad. If only they knew just how much power they have! They don't have to put up with people like that.

I remember my dad's mum used to end up with people pleading with her to be allowed to do whatever it was that she'd wanted but they initially hadn't, while she kept refusing, saying no, they should do what they'd planned, etc

It was only after they were practically on bended knee did she agree to allow them to give her her own way.

Bloody staggering.

If it had been me, when she'd done her little girl voice 'oh, no, it's ok, don't worry about meee' I'd have said ok then, see ya.

Not faffed about at her door begging and pleading and seeing her smug face at the end of it.

That's interesting about toxic parents having underacheiving children.

The two people I know best who have toxic parents are both very high acheivers. I suppose that's because you can go two ways; either 'If I do really well they will be pleased with me" or "I can't win no matter what I do so I won't bother" (thinking specifically in relation to over/under achieving).

I do need to SIT ON my compulsion to defend myself all the time, which is something that came out in a big way in my psychotherapy. So, at least I know what I need to do! I just need to 'do it'. I am not overweight but I am guessing this is like an overweight person knowing that they 'just' need to eat less. Kind of like this ?

Obviously that is a complete oversimplification!