Some thoughts about "toxic" people

[flippinada]

I've read and contributed to a couple of threads where people are having to deal with what I would describe as toxic friends and family and the distress that it cause. I've had issues in the past with people this myself and it's really got me thinking.

Once thing that struck me from these threads, plus my own experience of toxic types is that there seems to be common "themes" - the one that immediately comes to mind is that the toxic person needs an enabler - usually a husband or wife who panders to their awful behaviour and colludes with them.

I know there's already a wonderful support thread (stately homes) but I thought it might be helpful to have a general discussion about how to identify these people and cope with them, plus a kind of support thing so folk know they aren't alone in having to deal with it alone?

Hecate, there is another option; my friends sibling had a great solution - they emigrated. My friend is hoping her parents will move there when they retire!

Flip, it said that it was one way or the other. Under or Over! i'm very definitely under. I kind of wish I was more successful, but I don't feel I have it in me to see courses through to the end. And although I believe I could be a good employee, a good partner, I havent the faith in other people to value me, so I find it incredibly hard to put myself out there. I guess my experiences have taught me that I wasn't valued, and I'm using logic and internal dialogue to tell myself that I'm not stupid, I am decent, sensible, practical, logical etc........ but the REALITY for me has been that I've been sacked, co-erced in to resigning, relocated, made redundant, dumped, used, .... but I'm NOT a professional victim honestly! it's because I have a sense of worth on my own that I can't risk 'testing' it by letting other people judge me.

There will always be another toxic person out there. What I need to figure out is what I did to make this toxic person 1) realise I could be baited, and 2) why I felt compelled to defend myself to somebody who is nobody really. How did I get locked into this with somebody who is basically nothing to me, a randomer. But there I was, straight back on the hamster wheel.

the underachieving thing is interesting.

I am I suppose an 'overachiever' in academic terms (though feel a fraud saying that) but have suffered from underlying chronic depression and several breakdowns.

re. the toxic person at work Ginebra: I have heard that the very best thing to do is cut off all the 'supply' to the narc/abuser whether positive or negative. They don't care, it's supply. So you have to ignore him/her completely. Yes definitely stop defending yourself; they are dragging you into a dialogue about your 'faults' which is based on their rules.

It's interesting isn't it that it's one extreme or the other.

I think 'toxic' types think a high achiever reflects well on them and their excellent parenting but woe betide the achiever if anything goes wrong.

wrt underachieving, it took me 2wenty years to look back and understand that i failed at everything because the things I was attempting to do were their plans not mine. At no point, literally, not til I was 30+ did I think, hang on, would it be totally unreasonable to just take stock of what I would LIKE to do? tbh, that sort of hippy nonsense was never indulged.

yes, and my brother is the other extreme from me!

I agree that it's probably pointless to engage with them as they feed off it. It's like being in the middle of a war you have no chance of winning.

domestic your posts sound just like my friend; she has similar MH issues.

I hear from relatives now I am an adult, that my mum bragged constantly about my academic performance to them. But she never gave me a word of praise, just dire warnings if I wasn't working hard enough or if standards slipped. Quite narc that I guess. Also the working-class thing, that you must not praise your children lest they get above themselves :D

Ginebra I thought I was wholly aware of the impact of the 'Toxic' person on my Husband (his mother) - sadly recent experience has opened my eyes to the true impact and devastating consequences of so many years of such conditioning.

That kind of manipulation cannot be fought, argued against, or leave anything to salvage - it's an immutable power and simply terrifying.

My brother much better at handling criticism though. I remember once I'd mentioned I was going to buy a painting. Well, all I got from my mother was 'no no no, that would be foolish blah blah blah blah.............' She honestly didn't fully GET that I wanted to buy it because I WANTED to. My brother was sitting there listening to all of this, then he said casually, I'll be back in half an hour. He came back with a painting! he said 'look at my painting! it's nice, I'm happy with it'. My mum was but he honestly couldn't have given a fuck if she pissed on his decision to waste money on a local artist or not. I wish I had that shell.

ginebra do you still feel under the power of your mum's criticism? You should practice deliberate rebellion! Listen to what she says.. then do the opposite!!

@ Brenda, has your husband found himself repeating old patterns with a new toxic person?

Yes, I@m trying. That's what I do nwo. I resist the urge to run things past her. I can't tell you the number of plans I've had that she's talked me out of. Hairdressing for example. Nursing. She would just list off ALL the negatives and eventually, after a few rounds of being balanced and defending the reasons for my choices, I'd just feel weary.

I have underachieved too (although starting to now) and I think it was because of a combination of chronic low self esteem and also trying to follow other people's plans for me, not my own.

My mum brags about me to other people but I have never once had an unqualified compliment from her. Now I have children I have actually found that completely bizarre, I think (and tell them all the time) that they are amazing.

Yy to being talked out of something all the time. I keep my dreams to myself now.

god Ginebra she sounds like one to cut off for a bit. Maybe not permanently, but talking to her clearly does you no good.

I get this sound of disappointment from my mum all the time when I suggest something she doesn't like the sound of. Gentle yet devastatingly dismissive disappointment. It kind of makes me laugh now.

I rebelled years ago though and she knows damn well if she starts the real toxic stuff again she will not see me. so she tones it down.

I struggle with my memory of my father, who died a few years ago. I'm pretty sure he was a narcissist. He was childish, selfish, self-centred and lacked empathy. He was also an alcoholic. He hurt me over and over again with his behaviour. He married a woman (my stepmother) who was also incredibly difficult. She was very critical of me and because he hung on her every word, she helped him to see me in an even more critical light than he did already. She has said breathtakingly, unbelievably rude and hurtful things to me. Whenever I visited them, I repressed my real personality and became the person I thought they wanted me to be. Sometimes this worked, but, generally, it left me feeling incredibly lonely and depressed.

What I struggle with is that there are also many good points about both my father and SM. My father could sometimes be kind. It took a lot for him to stop thinking about himself, but sometimes he would cook me a special meal for my birthday or make a special trip to visit me. This gave me hope for many years that our relationship might change for the better, although I gave up on this in the end. My SM can also be kind, although I think she enjoys it if we are in trouble of any sort because it feeds her sense of superiority.

Both DF and SM thought outward appearance was everything. If I spoke to Dad, he would only ever tell me about the latest party he'd been to and the important people he'd met. He would rarely ask about me. I felt that I was a disappointment to him.

Superficially, our relationship seemed fine. Dad and my SM were able to keep up appearances and I never let them down. But I know that they never really knew me.

I still haven't made sense of it all. I grieved so deeply for my DF when he died, but I was also haunted by all the bad memories. It was hard for me to find many good ones and that was sad in itself.

When I read about toxic people, I feel confused. Do my DF and SM fit into this category? And, if they do, what effect has it had on me? Most of the time, I'm just too busy with my life to think about it directly, but it is always there, niggling at me.

Ginebra - my Husband has ostensibly chosen his adult family over Me, meh his children's security and happiness. That despite personally seeing and hearing their indefensible defence of their manipulative actions and words, he still defends them.

He opines whines "but She's my MUM" whenever I say "It's your children!"

And all that from a Naice upper middle class family background...alcoholism, incest, sexual abuse, and suicide, apart of course.

Our children, and their emotional welfare, should come first.

I will be the one to have to explain why I turned their lives upside down by leaving Daddy, I will be the single parent, I will be the in-law's topic of bitchy conversation forevermore (just like the two unfortunates before me) - all the while them knowing (but not giving a damn because Toxics don't have that insight or emotional range) about the roles they played.

Thank you for starting this thread flippinada - how apposite and timely it has been for me!

It is very difficult to admit these things about your own parent

noddyholder It is very difficult to admit these things about your own parent - YES, and I completely and wholly agree that admitting the people that are meant to love, nurture, and support you are maybe less than perfect.

But...I did that aged 14, and still loved and adored them for themselves - I just never excused any behaviour that was damaging, or own it and clasp it to myself to let them off the hook. And while I admit they made a part of me, I acknowledge that they did not make me in my entirety - I am ME..and it's my responsibilty to own up to MY faults because they are MINE and mine alone!

I'm finding the part up thread about illness quite interesting, mum loves you to know the ins and outs of every appointment she has, never asks how you are, but when there is something actually really wrong she becomes a martyr to it, to the point where she actually denies being ill. We also had a situation where she had a major operation and during recovery she was like a toddler, she wouldn't take her medication and actually thought she knew better than to take advice from the experts.

Also Nickname you mentioned the outward appearance being important. She for as long as I can remember allowed db to make comments, laugh and generally take the p* out of me. He is not as bad now but she can't even bring herself to say 'you look nice' it is always something like 'that's a nice jumper' or 'those trousers make you look thin' no mother I look nice, I am thinner than you think!!!!

I have also found that years of her have made me suspicious of my MIL's motives. I'm sure she has lovely lady, but I always think that she has am ulterior motive. Has anyone else been effected I'm the way they trust and deal with others?

@ ah yeh bolting, I really feel for you. For years I felt the weight of my xpils criticism of me, it was another layer of weight on top of me. But now, I don't care. They send letters to me to tell me my faults and I think, 'oh my friend will laugh at this' but I resist replying!

I totally get what you're saying though. Even though You have NO choice, and were backed into leaving The Script will be that you walked away on a selfish whim or something like that! That is my x's family's perception of the situation. I left their son for "an easy life". I just said, yeh, being a single mother on benefits IS actually easier, you are right there. :-/ But this is six years on here. My kids know it was my prerogative to leave an unahppy relationship.

It does get easier because over time you give less of a fuck thought to how they have interpreted it all. Obviously you can NEVER get them to see your side, but the fact that they are so wilfully biased ceases to matter after a few years. Honestly now, there good opinion means about as little to me as if you pointed to somebody in the far distance and siad 'that guy thinks you're selfish'.

@ boltingbrenda, maybe your husband will have a few epiphanies along the way. I've had a few in the last 6 or 7 years I can tell you. I probably would have been locked into cycles of pleasing ten years ago. But I'm a different person now. I knwo you can't waste your one short life waiting for your husband to SEE what you see, but it's not impossible that he might begin some sort of reflection (seriously) when he's lost his wife and children.