Some thoughts about "toxic" people

[flippinada]

I've read and contributed to a couple of threads where people are having to deal with what I would describe as toxic friends and family and the distress that it cause. I've had issues in the past with people this myself and it's really got me thinking.

Once thing that struck me from these threads, plus my own experience of toxic types is that there seems to be common "themes" - the one that immediately comes to mind is that the toxic person needs an enabler - usually a husband or wife who panders to their awful behaviour and colludes with them.

I know there's already a wonderful support thread (stately homes) but I thought it might be helpful to have a general discussion about how to identify these people and cope with them, plus a kind of support thing so folk know they aren't alone in having to deal with it alone?

[noddyholder]

Once you do admit it though your life can be transformed

[Nicknamechange]

noddy - 'It is very difficult to admit these things about your own parent'.

Yes, it feels disloyal. And I feel as if I will get into trouble!

[Ginebra]

yes. I am feeling now, like, I thought I was an adult at 30, 31, 32... In fact, I didn't even start to become an adult until I left my x. And then, along the way I grew to understand that dysfunctional relationship, why I allowed myself to tolerate it, how predictable his behaviour was, why I feel the need to defend myself all the time, my own people pleasing and confusing being nice with being 'needless', and even now, still learning, when I realise that I'm getting sucked back into a similar pattern with somebody who has identified me as a source.

I feel envious of people who were sorted and confident at 23. I'm in my 40s and still trying to get up to that early adulthood level.

[Ginebra]

yes, nickname, I keep thinking 'what if my mother read this thread!'. She won't. I'm as certain as I can be, but it would be horrifying.

[noddyholder]

I would love my mum to read it as it would be the only way to get the info across

[flippinada]

Nickname your experience strikes a chord with me as I had a similar relationship with my Dad and Stepmum; my Dad wasn't an alcoholic but the other stuff is very, very familiar. She was vile to me and my sister and my Dad just let it happen/put up with it for an easy life - I also struggle withs ome very complex feelings - but that's a story for another thread really.

Noddy it's a very difficult subject for sure. It's like opening Pandoras Box.

Brenda glad the thread is helpful! I'm finding it really helpful too. And you raise a good point about the dysfunction in so called 'naice' families!

I think it's so, so difficult to challenge/deal with entrenched dysfunctional behaviour.

[EverythingIsTicketyBoo]

I think even if my mum read this she would have no reaction to it at all, she just doesn't see that this is her, she is the eternal victim in life.

[BoltingBrenda]

noddyholder I sense immense pain in your spare and measured posts. I hope that you have come to some rationalisation and realisation of your own circumstances? You appear to be a quite lovely person.

Ginebra I have drawn innumerable 'lines in the sand' over the past 10 years- ALL have been crossed with impunity by the Toxics - YOU know the 'Script' by heart! Their fuckwittery ceased to rile me a few years ago - now 'tis out and out betrayal that has permitted the last shreds of my understanding and sympathy towards them to be discarded.

[Shattereddreams]

I have a toxic sister, a toxic father and aunt and the worst culprit, a toxic grandmother who is thankfully now dead.
Marking my place as I found this thread v useful.

[Ginebra]

i wonder if it's worse in 'naice' familes. There is more pressure to keep up appearances, so more collusion unfortunately. You know your friends will pity you, and you don't want to make them feel awkward. It's only considerate to keep your upper lip stiff and hide your dogsdinnerhomelife from them.

[BoltingBrenda]

Nicknamechange Do we have the same Dad? (Quite possible...I'm an 'only child' with @4? unknown half-siblings out there somewhere)

My Dad was an eternal man-child - handsome, fabulous, witty, the life and soul of every situation but...deeply flawed.

He broke my childhood heart a million times, but I loved him.

I still love him (he died some years ago).

I don't know the full story of his upbringing - just enough to realise and comprehend that he was most probably deeply emotionally damaged by it.

I know I was loved by him, even if most of his life choices made his being an accepted model of fatherhood very unlikely!

His life does not define me - I've taken the good parts of his character and genetics but not forgiven his letting me down time after time - that was not good Dad!

I love my Dad, I miss him deeply, but he was a shit Dad!

[dothraki]

Noddy I doubt your mum would recognise herself. That is part of the problem they are perfect dontcha know

[Ginebra]

My mum wouldn't. She'd be very angry. About two years ago, she called me abusive. It was another situation like when I overheard her making a derogatory remark about me, she picked up my son from school, but I hadn't ASKED her to, so when I said, 'oh, hi!, it's thursday what are you doing here?' Well, she was so embarrassed by me, she was so humiliated, all she does for me, etc etc.... I literally didn't even get a CHANCE to say 'i am grateful for all your help, I just wasn't expecting you to be there that day!'. I honestly did n't get a chance. I kept trying to say my piece. and 'my piece' was one sentence. but I couldn't get it out. Her hand would fly up to stop me making my point.

It's always ridiculous things that spark off WWIII

[LimeLeafLizard]

Really interesting thread, thanks. Coming back to read in more detail later.

[Ginebra]

I know I need to handle things better,and I'm geting there. The next time things heat up I will repeat to myself mantra style 'gratitude, complete assent, gratitude, complete assent'. This will keep me out of a pointless row. My brother was reminding me a while ago how when we were little if we were at somebody's house and we were offered a biscuit or a piece of cake, the host would insstantly be told 'they're fine, they're fine, they're not hungry' even if we were drooling looking at the cake. funny that that sticks in his head! Now, being better able to handle situations, at a family even for example if he were offered a vol au vent, he'd say "am I hungry mum? ;-) and she'd actually laugh. difuse the situation. I'd be getting all wound up that at 40 somethig I wasn't allowed to decide for myself if I wanted to take a sausage roll or not. So I know that I am part of the equation. I need to react differently.

[Ginebra]

This all sounds SO petty when I read it back!

[SmellsLikeTeenStrop]

This is not a trivial consideration in personal relationships. I've seen narcissistic people sweetly solicit someone's preferences, yes I am talking about you MIL ("Go ahead -- tell me what you really want"), make a show of paying attention to the answer ("Don't you think I'm nice?"), and then deliver something other than what was asked for

Atilla This is exactly what my MIL does. She'd ask me for what I wanted. I'm a big reader so I usually ask for books, she'd make a note of the author - even asking me twice to make sure she'd got it right. Roll on Christmas or birthdays I'd get a book but it would be a book that she would read, not what I would ever read.

[dothraki]

Ginebra - thats the point. They are masters of pettyness. It seems like the more trivial the better. Also its the incessant nature of it. Its like drip,drip, drip all the time.

[pollypandemonium]

We have a toxic ex-SIL in our family but she is truly mentally ill. Highly intelligent, always writing things down for evidence, over assertive, greedy, controlling of her son (who she has limited access to), on meds etc, social services involvement.

What I find interesting though is how different family members deal with her. I won't tolerate her near me as she has done so many unforgivable things (being overbearing with dying of cancer father - just one example of many). But my brother kind of lets her jig along and invites her to family events which upsets me because she has caused so much pain.

My mother also, accepts her and manages her, ignoring most of the time (takes the hearing aid out) and less involved people also let her get away with all sorts.

Toxic is a subjective term. I see this woman as toxic but many don't, they say she's ill and you should ignore her. I (and a few others) say that her behaviour is damaging and unacceptable. I anyone right here? Should you just let toxic people go on doing what they do?

[goodjambadjar]

As I said earlier, it was my nan who was toxic. I called her a parasite because I swear she fed off peoples efforts to please her. Maybe vampire would be better. she was full of spite, and frequently directed it at the grandkids. I have so many stories of stuff she's said, I think the one that sticks out is when I finally flipped and stood up for myself. I was about 22 and fed up with her shit. We were having a girl shopping trip (me,mum,her) and I was talking about my new bloke. she said something along the lines of "you're quite fat to have a boyfriend". I was a size 16, about the same as her. I told her it was ok, I'd shag the fat off. Mum was like and said to have some respect. I said I was old enough to realise respect was earned, and if nan couldn't respect me, why should I respect her. Mum didn't have an answer to that. Didn't stop Nan being a spiteful b for years to come though.

its like there's not a switch in their head that tells them how horrible and unreasonable they're being.

I have such sympathy, and empathy for the people posting. These people affect us, to the point of knowing you have to deal with them means you dread it, and you've got your armour on ready for battle.
I'm worried because my mum had a shit childhood, and adulthood until Nan died last year. She can't resolve anything because nan was so unapologetic about her actions, so mum is grieving for a relationship she never had. But although she is determined never to be like her, she is starting to exhibit some traits. She's so touchy about it you can't mention it.

[dothraki]

Polly - I don't see how you can stop them. All you can do is protect yourself. Their behaviour is damaging and unacceptable - but they don't see it. From ours - when I first met them they were sweet as pie. That didn't last long. Then they stopped talking, it was like we were an inconvenience to them. I gave them the benefit of the doubt for 5 years. Then they showed their full on true colours. Their vileness poured out of them, full blown tantrums, verbal abuse, concerted attacks from others on their behalf. I honestly believed her husband was controlling her and she was depressed. Things on here made me see things differently.

[dothraki]

Goodjam - wow that was horrible - good retort though. Maybe you should get your mum to read some of the stuff here (or get ideas from here if you dont want her on here ) Your mum might be confused - also she might be scarred thats she's turning into her mum sounds like she needs to talk about it.

[goodjambadjar]

Thanks Dothraki, I think it all got too much for her, so she's finally seeing a counsellor, thank goodness.
I just saw through my Nans nastiness and refused to put up with it. I'm like that with a lot if people! A lot of my friends say I'm a good friend but they wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of me!
I'm a firm believer in the phrase "if you've got a problem with me, that's your problem!"

[TheArmadillo]

EverythingIsTicketyBoo I have struggled with my in-laws because of not believing anyone could be that genuinely nice, caring and honest with no ulterior motives or hidden meaning. After 13 years I am getting the hang of it.

For a long time I had nightmares where my lovely Mil suddenly snapped and said I'd pushed her too far, asked for too much and she screamed at me all the insults my mother used. They started when I realised how bad my mother was and started pulling away and I had them for a couple of years. My Mil has supported me through everything and has restored my faith in humanity. She (along with dh, fil and 2 friends of mine) are the only people I trust completely. She is very gentle and very open with her emotions (in a good way) and has put up with my odd behaviour at times but has been very patient and I think it is because of her we have such a good relationship.

I do struggle to trust people though and am very suspicious as a result of being brought up by abusers.

[Nicknamechange]

BoltingBrenda - oops, I hope not! I'm an only child too (at least, as far as I know...). Like your dad, mine was an 'eternal man-child'. He could also be the life and soul - very funny, entertaining etc. He was certainly never ordinary. But he was abusive - physically to my mother and emotionally to me. The worst thing was that he started to be critical towards my DC too. Luckily, I was able to protect them from this and they never knew. They still think he was wonderful.

I understand how you can say you love your dad and miss him, but can still see that he was a shit dad. I can see that with mine too. But I still feel immensely guilty for typing these words. As if I have let him down and he's going to be disappointed in me all over again.