Some thoughts about "toxic" people

[flippinada]

I've read and contributed to a couple of threads where people are having to deal with what I would describe as toxic friends and family and the distress that it cause. I've had issues in the past with people this myself and it's really got me thinking.

Once thing that struck me from these threads, plus my own experience of toxic types is that there seems to be common "themes" - the one that immediately comes to mind is that the toxic person needs an enabler - usually a husband or wife who panders to their awful behaviour and colludes with them.

I know there's already a wonderful support thread (stately homes) but I thought it might be helpful to have a general discussion about how to identify these people and cope with them, plus a kind of support thing so folk know they aren't alone in having to deal with it alone?

flipp , the toxic list is a great idea. It will show in cold hard bullet points/numbers what the traits are.

Ohmygosh, memories are coming back of me and my 2 sisters playing off against each other.
My youngest dsis alaways liked to remind me and my other dsis that she was our half-sister (different fathers, same mother) once we all found out that was the case.

My mum would always say to me that I was the best daughter etc yet til the other 2 admitted she told them the same thing, years later.

Many years ago, my dh and I were trying for a baby. There were gynae problems involved, so I had to go into hospital to undo damage to my fallopian tubes, the only time I could ever conceive naturally. My Mum knew this, and that I was stressed out because of our 1 chance.
So guess what? She rang me up the night before the op, told me she'd had a row with dsis, and wanted some advice, then said 'sorry to land that on you, the day before your big operation'. F**K OFF!!

sorry, flip, was a bit late posting. The list is bang on the nail heartbreaking as it is..

Awesome list flip! Couldn't have said it better myself.

Thank you crushed

I had the idea of the list when I was following through the thread, it just really struck me that a lot of the behaviours follow a pattern. You also see it in other scenarios, where someone is dealing with an abusive partner, and it's almost like they are following a script.

It is horrible isn't it, especially when a lot of us have been bought up with this. Toxic colleagues..well, you can leave a job and toxic friends you can go no contact with, but your family - that's something really big.

When I think of children going through all that and not knowing what the hell is wrong, but knowing something is wrong and and not understanding why they feel so awful and feeling like a bad person - that really, really upsets me.

toomany thank you too.

I've thought of another one - can't bear not to be the centre of attention.

Flip - great list - except my narky thinks everyone is beneath her

yes, flip, can't bear not to be the centre of attention is definitely another one.
Just poo, isn't it?

Thank you for your support - it is so good to feel I am not alone. I do need to think carefully about the relationship between my DCs and their grandmother. As they are so little, it isn't really a burning issue at the moment, but I am really anxious about handling it properly.

The list is so accurate that it's scary.

I think the list sums up the narcissists. But I do think there are other toxic behaviours. Thinking of a friend, not so much of a friend anymore, I distanced as it dawned on me that everything she said was negative, she bad-mouthed everyone and generally had a miserable outlook on life/found the worst in everyone/thing. But I was fooled for a long time because she says everything in a nice, friendly way. And was actually very kind to me, constantly offering to look after my dc etc. But I came to noticed that she so often complained about doing other people favours that she was probably complaining about me too, even though she offered and was insistent, so I felt uncomfortable about staying in touch.

If that makes any sense!

Does this ring bells for anyone?

dothraki, that reminds me. Dh and I lived in the same village where both of our families were based.

I worked at the local firm there, so I often bumped into my colleagues socially or at the supermarket. I remember my Mum looking down on my work colleagues if ever I stopped to speak to them in the village, looking them up and down as if they were something she'd trod on, and they'd slope off quickly. I got some flak about that at work, believe me. Just awful.

You know dothraki when I was typing that I did think..that'll bed just about everybody then!

Yes toomany I know the type you mean.

oops *trod in

Be, not bed.

That relentless, joy sucking, negative attitude can be just unbearable. If they do it in front of you about others, you know they'll be doing it about you as well the moment your back is turned!

Yes, the 'let me do that for you, of course I'll have the DCs for you' and then either deciding on the day that she had never said that she would, or couldn't because of some spurious reason or she'd actually have them and then moan and bitch to someone on the phone in front of the DCs so they'd tell me about it.

Flip great list, just one suggestion? They have to have 'golden children' and 'scapegoats' and that these can change without notice or reason.

toomanyfionas - that reminded me of my ex friend. If I might the slightest criticism of someone (like some random celeb gossip stuff) - she wouls say stuff like "you are always so judgemental" er no I'm not, but then she'd slag off everyone. I'm only just seeing some of this - but its like I was always in the wrong.
Crushed

That's a good one to add to the list Capt golden children and scapegoats. Thank you.

Of course the "rules" can't be consistent -that would make sense which cannot be allowed in the messed up world of the toxic tormentor!

That whole list is spot on, but yes a big fat definite yes to Chaos and the golden child syndrome. (Still waiting my turn to be in favour, after 30 odd years I think my moment may have passed )

Really good list.

Just thinking... are these universal traits or not?

• imbues all events and interactions with a huge amount of hidden (negative) meaning - an unrealistic amount of subtext is always seen

• they 'own' the family/ group narrative, & will twist & lie creating it causing cognitive dissonance in us

The Golden Child thing is weird. All my life I was never original enough, a late developer, mis-pronounced things (commonly of course which meant I had to see an ear specialist when I was 3 to have grommits even though I could hear fine -she continued hounding my pronunciation all my life), was too fat/too thin = which makes my nose look big, self obsessed and a lazy slob. She took me for a brain xray when I was 13 as she said she thought I was mentally defective - the Dr's even told her it could damage me as my skill was not formed properly, but she insisted. Nothing wrong at all. She would fly into rages and shout/scream at me. Threw me out in the snow one Boxing Day when I was 14 and used to tell me horrible lies about my dad abusing me and hitting me (in case I favoured him to her of course).
When she died the neighbours said all she ever talked about was me and how amazing I was

Thankfully I am an only child, which might have been her quandary there I suppose

My sister was the golden child btw, but became very ill from age 15, and led to a hideous situation where my sister was at once revered and abused as my mother oscillated between adoring her as the perfect daughter, & wanting to destroy her as competition for attention/ starring role. For example my sister couldn't use her room after coming home ill from uni, so my parents organised a trip to ikea with much trouble and fanfare... Then REFUSED to put the drawers up as they (really, my mother), they'd done soooo much for my sister already and she's was grasping & selfish blah blah blah... I put them up when I next visited, 4 months later :(

Then things like they refused to get a chair my sister could even sit on, in the kitchen or lounge... As her illhealth ruled their house and it's not fair everything revolved around her... So to the day my sister died she had nowhere to sit :(

My darling sister was such a good person, and let them treat her like crap as she didn't have anyone else to look after her... If 'looked after' is the phrase am looking for.

I carry so much guilt.

Double that is awful. It's horrid how we are always the ones with the guilt. I felt guilty for imagining she had just slated me to the neighbours (felt defensive wondering what they had been told) and it was as if from beyond the grave she was still pretending to be the perfect mother, making me wonder if I had it wrong all of these years.

Double - oh my god, I am crying for you and your poor sister. Please do not feel guilty, this was not your fault.

Thanks, crying myself, I don't talk about it often, hurts too much.

It was always about how difficult life was for my mother, and yes, it was hard and we all believed we should be so sympathetic to my mother the victim, at the expense of ourselves. It was only when I had Ds that I realised I'd die for him if I needed to, and it would be my choice, nothing ever put on Ds himself.

So after my beautiful sister died, I started to get ill, and now am disabled needing 90+ hrs of care a week. My mother didn't speak to me for 4 mths before Christmas but went around telling all who would listen how stressful it was for her to have another ill daughter! Lovely.

Ok am waffling but bear with me, am psyching self up to say something big.

My sister was never diagnosed, she was the 'problem patient' who got told there was nothing they could do, and fobbed off. I think this was in part (great part) because my parents colluded and pushed this view themselves... They told her, she told her, that it was all on her head, she was making it up, she wanted to be ill. And my sister was so so scared, as her body fell apart and she couldn't get anyone to listen.

I got diagnosed with a genetic disease and partly because my 'family history' was so bloody obvious. Turns out ive aleays been in alot of pain but cos my mother had such a vice like grip on my reality... I didnt know. Even now, a physio or medic will ask me, how are you feeling? And i wont have a clue.

My darling love my sister, She had a text book symptom by symptom list, and yes it's rare, but nobody even bothered to look. She type was terminal, mine probably not. But if they'd have known what she had... She probably wouldn't have died how she did, when she did. She could have lived years longer, with proper treatment and management.