"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's March 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly use it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Thank you Hissy
I have name changed as my ex knows my other name and it was MN that made me see how bad things were and helped me leave as you guys were all I had literally ;)

I just feel like it must be me I must be not a nice person if my own DM supports him such a controlling angry man
It's not doing me much good for building myself up after leaving him

I'm happier going no contact with my mum though

Missed your last post

I feel reflected like a ugly duckling

All I know is it hurts

It was your mother that created the situation that led to you being in a DV relationship.

She's the same kind of person, so of course she'll back him.

I think that it's a form of jealousy, a resentment that we're nicer people than them. So they have to destroy us, as they can't be like us.

Still hurts like hell.

Thank god for MN!

Glad you're NC with your DM, tango.
I'm off home today from lovely hols will prob see DM tmrw.

GoodtoBetter

You are really under no obligation (that word again) to see your mother tomorrow.

Spend a further nice day with your children instead rather than subjecting yourself/ves to her non company and narcissism.

I do know what you mean but it gets it over and done with . I know you'll say why do I bother but I'm not up to going NC, and I don't think it's fair or workable when we live a 5 min walk away.

Can't be easy goodtobe hope it doesn't go to badly & hope you enjoyed your time away.

Nothing much going on here for a change and i'm glad, mil tried to get on the warpath yesterday but dh ignored all her calls.

Yes I'm glad I have MN its nice to feel its not me I'm not the odd one

I see what you mean about about going into a dv relationship
How did I grow up so very insecure? What creates that in people as I certainly don't want my dc's feeling like that
I must have been so vulnerable at 17 ?

She had no hesitation in backing him no question no discussion she put phone down that was it
She knew what she was doing

I do feel a bit better thank you Hissy x

texted her to say we'd be over in the morning and she's on her best behaviour and saying she'd love to see us but only if we're not too busy

Best behaviour?

Or an attempt at a guilt trip! Have your stock phrases ready! :)

Yes, twas meant ironically . Her text would sound fine to anyone else but it's guilt tripping a go go. Won't be there long and then it's done. How are you, Hissy?

Hi folks, I'm sorry to come crashing in here, but I don't know if this is the right place, or if I need to start a new thread (either here or in another topic).

I have issues/anxiety stemming from my childhood which I need to get a grip of (after 40ish years, I'm getting sick of them ). And I need to make sure they don't impact on dd or any potential siblings.

I'm struggling to know where to turn, I've had some counselling (proved too difficult to schedule around childcare) but every time I run through what I think are the issues, they sound so jealous, petty and immature and I wonder if I'm just making a big deal over nothing....

:) good for you G2B, hope it's not too traumatic in thé end.

If she does start with the 'woe is me' then just nip it in the bud firmly

"Mum, we'd like to be able to take a few days off without coming back to a guilt trip, if at all possible"

As for me, hanging on by a thread mostly, it's bloody crap. But it'll get easier sometime, somehow.

Off to friends this afternoon, so that'll be nice! :)

Maybeamug, could you explain what you mean by your issues? What is it that you've had enough of.

I'm fairly sure that what you'll describe won't be insignificant at all, and if you're feeling the way you describe, it'll be for good reason.

Please don't minimise your feelings, they're usually valid.

If you want to talk, we're here to listen.

Hello, jumping into the thread a bit here. My dad was/is a bully, who shouted and made me feel terrible for really minor things, he was also the 'fun' parent who took us to theme parks, etc and made my mum fade into the background quite a bit. Life at home growing up was often for me centered around "what mood is dad in?" and being terrified of him exploding etc.

Anyway, I'd be interested in a few opinions on his current behaviour which is making me feel uncomfortable, but I'm unsure as to whether it's just because I distrust him (and would never feel comfortable around him) or whether the behaviour itself is a modified version of bullying.

We've all mostly grown up now, and my older sister and I have had (so far) three boys between us, all under 2 years old. When my dad plays with my older nephew especially, he's very "I'm coming to get you" playing chasing, tickling games. He's not especially rough but he does go on and on. If he finds one 'game' that makes them laugh, he keeps on doing it till they are fed up or overwhelmed and seems to be completely insensitive to how far he winds them up. The children are for the most part smiling and laughing - but I don't know if I'm projecting a bit here, sometimes it seems to be a nervous/stressed laugh, or they look away trying to do other things like they want to avoid him - especially as the game goes on. He just doesn't seem to know when to quit. So usually me or my mum steps in and 'rescues' the child by engaging them in another game/asking if they need a nappy change/food etc.

He's like this for a lot of the visit. I feel he doesn't give them a chance to be relaxed and playing doing their own thing, it has to be about him, he has to be keeping them on their toes, watching out for where grandad is. It makes me really uncomfortable and I couldn't just relax and leave them to play without worrying. I don't leave my DS with him (to be fair, I don't leave DS with anyone else other than DH either yet!)

DNeph1 does spend a lot of time at my parents house, and everytime I'm there he sticks to my DM like glue. This could just be pretty normal toddler stuff (and she's lovely, who wouldn't want to stick with her) but I suspect he also doesn't want to be left with dad.

There are other things that I dislike too - he's sarcastic, mean and expects unrealistic things from them given their ages. I also get the impression that he would really like them to be scared of him - he seems disappointed that his threats (expressed in 'oh so funny, amn't I hilarious' ways) and firm "No"s are completely ignored by my 12 month old. He'd like him to be scared so it was easier to tell him off I think.

I'm just wondering whether I'm being "over sensitive" to think that even the way he plays with them is to keep pushing their boundaries, to keep them on thier toes, to want them to be a bit scared of him.

My mum is better than she used to be about standing up to him, but I often wish I could just visit her and not him. I have talked to her about various little bits of his behviour when he's been mean/sarcastic. But I'm pretty sure that complaining about how he plays would sound really paranoid.

As a little aside, I also wonder if when he plays with DS he is aware of keeping me on my toes, and is enjoying the power he has over me by threatening my PFB.

This may fit here. My thoughts:
A boxroom sanctuary.
A childhood bedroom.

A box room: A place to store unwanted
Possessions.
To pack them away until they are needed.
An insular library: To relax, to read and to dream.
A sanctuary: respite from the trial that is life
In the open.
A retreat: for when the world becomes
Too much.
A hidden den: A safe place to be.
A place to hide from reality: to rest,
To gather bravery once more.
Small, cosy and reclusive; curl up and pretend
You're not there.

At night family members lie in forgotten corners; Each person divided by walls physical and emotional. United in fear, yet hidden from the terror of revealing yourself to others. Protected, curled in a foetal position, pretending you're not there. You don't exist in anyone's memory, except the memories that laugh and jeer. The memories that criticise and condescend.

In here you are... you. Reading of the trials of other girls overcoming obstacles in life and leading rich fulfilled adult lives. They become you, you become them. You face their trials, you revel in their successes. Nothing is insurmountable in this paper world: Creases can be flattened, errors rubbed away, even dramatic tears are repaired leaving only a gentle scar.

You fit in in this room. You belong. Alone with your thoughts and the secure lives of your faithful companions. Alone with the adventures of the mind. Alone with hundreds of books allowing you to escape into dramatic worlds. Worlds where you are not clumsy, worlds where you are the confident, adventurous, outgoing young lady you aspire to be. Safe in the knowledge that you need never actually do those things - that would be humiliating; a clumsy mess deluding herself she has ability.

Alone with your thoughts, you are content with your beliefs and strength of mind. Dreaming of the day you will be listened to, the day you will achieve. Dreaming of the day that your words will come out as you can hear them inside. They sound so knowledgable in the sanctuary of your mind, they seem so right in your room, yet when dared to be spoken aloud, sound immature, naive, idealistic, just... wrong.

As much as I wished otherwise, I had no God-given gift that would wonder the world. I had no farm, no mysterious attics and no deep family secret to draw on for inspiration. Books were more exciting that the mundane drudgery of reality. It was much more sensible to keep dreams as just that, dreams.

You can live a whole life, several lives, through your imagination and through books. It's safer that way.

Hi wolf, I would trust your instincts here. You know your child and can pick up on how they feel. Perhaps limit your time there or arrange activities out places with them and your DC to dilute things?

I do think if you verbalised it, it would be minimised. I would make it clear that the DC need time to just be. And continue to step in, if it gets too much for them. And if things do not improve, then you may need to reconsider how the DC see your Mum without your Dad. Which is what I now do.

My Dad was a bully growing up. I don't see him now after he hit my child to discipline them without my authority. Unacceptable. And he had a huge outburst at me and threatened me when I first begun to limit contact with my parents.

It's very difficult.

Thank you Hissy. It sounds daft but I grew up feeling like I was completely unimportant to everyone in my family. I had intense sibling jealousy for many many years which made me feel awful and like a nasty horrible immature person but I understand now that it probably stemmed from being completely outshone by my sibling and hearing nothing but praise for them and criticism for me.

I'm now scared that if I have second child (I'd like to stick at one or have 3, but a series of miscarriages means that I feel I should be grateful for anything that comes along) this will all replicate itself in the next generation

Ice Cup, I spent my childhood reading too

I was constantly told off for reading and being "anti-social" for say reading at the breakfast table or for reading to my brother in his bedroom rather than encouraging him to go out and play (so we went outside to read, problem solved .

I'm with dont here wolf, trust what you feel. Before going non-contact my fil was very much like your df wolf, fil dropped mil off to ours in the car, she would stay a few hours and he would come back to collect mil. But he would stay 30-40 mins and in that time did nothing but tickle, until there was no tickle left, he would then put his foot out to trip them up & deny it when i broched it with dh & mil, he would call my dd2 a boy whilst tickling her again & again until she couldn't take it no more and got rather upset- I would then get the girls up for a bath just to take them from the situation. My dc, all 4 of them were constantly wound up by him, so much so i was left with upset children on many occasion. This was one of the many reasons for non-contact also.

In all these times of winding up, mil would just sit on in my armchair making excuses for him as would dh.
My dc were treated almost like wind up toys. There is tickling and games then there is a point a grown up should stop, fil always went beyond this. When a child stops laughing it is no longer a game, when it goes beyond this it's nothing but bullying.

And fil had a blowing up tendancy also if he was challenged on his behaviour, he would shout and stomp and even walked out my house slamming the door on occasion.

Same with mothers day, one year he turned up at my home just to shout, swear and stomp because he assumed dh hadn't bought mil a present. When i explained to him that we infact had, he would not listen, he just went into a tyrade of verball abuse about how he never wants to "see my fffin dc again as dh treats mil like shit". At that point i told him to get the hell out of my house, he stormed out crying woh is me. One visit to mils after that and i was done with the whole family, apart from one visit this year.

Thanks DontStep xx

I guess I just have to trust my feelings and act upon them rather than wait for him to see that he's doing something wrong. I suppose it doesn't matter if he thinks I'm being unreasonable. You are right about the minimising. I just have to stop "freezing" when my dad makes me uncomfortable, and remember that I'm an adult who can say "I think he's had enough" and pick him up or just decide its time for a nappy change/drink/snack/lets go play outside/go see your uncle/etc.

If dad thinks I'm being precious, or unfair or annoying him it shouldn't matter to me anymore. It's just been ingrained into me to put up with this stuff I think. I always used to freeze when he went off on one when I was younger too, I just waited till he stopped.

Might try timing my visits when I know he's likely to be out as well. Thanks. I just felt so powerless. But if there are a whole roomful of people not calling me dad out on his behaviour, it is so difficult to be the person to mention it. That's changing though, my sister made a few comments along the lines of "he's just a little boy" and "poor thing he's not allowed to touch anything" and gave him something he could play with. I was pleasantly surprised because as children I rarely found her to be an ally. Often she was doing a lot of the teasing herself.

Guess we are growing up!

Thanks PumpkinSweetie, sorry about your experiences but I'm glad someone else understands that it isn't all just fun and games. Its not his god given right to wind them up without being sensitive to their feelings.

Its easy to see that shouting is bullying, its harder to be sure of your feelings when the person is "being fun" in a domineering way.

There is no competition between your dC and your sister, often even abusive people are lovely to others, just their victim that cops it.

Your family are all minimising things. Because that's what they did whjen he was doing it to you/them.

Now you're a parent, you can see it's wrong.

Go with your instincts, and if he blows up, ever, tell him to stfu and leave.

Don't tolerate bullying.

So, she really WAS on her best behaviour. Apologised profusely for the PA bullshit, "I'll have to go into a home in the UK, I'm in the pits of hell, I can't cope here" phone call. But turns it round a bit and minimises, changes details of it, for example she said one of the reasons she was so upset was that the shower was broken and she thought she would be without a shower for weeks, but she told me on the phone that the other shower was fine. It was all a dig and an attempt to make me feel bad for going away because the "going into a home" thing is a total non sequiter (sp) to "I can't afford to move back to the UK" because if she can't afford to buy she can't afford an old people's home either.
Anyway, it was all sweetness and light and apologies and bought some plants for DS. V impressed with DD's new words since she's seen her etc etc. But it all smacked a bit to me of the smothering again. We were talking about how I'd enjoyed the work I did in July and I'd be keen to do it again as the money comes in handy and she said, "but G2B, if you need the money you know I'll give it to you". I said not to worry and thank you for the offer, but NO FUCKING WAY am I touching that with a barge pole. Can you imagine? She'd have a field day with throwing that one in my face!

And, do you know, she has seen DH once I think, or twice maybe since we moved and she never ever asks about him, had bugger all to say to him when she did see him and has never once apologised for what she said to him, about him. This about the man she used to say she saw as "another son" :(

So we're back in the pattern of she throws a wobbly, I ignore it and use my platitudes "hmm yes, that's a shame" etc. She doesn't get anywhere, gets fed up, apologises and tries a bit harder for a while.

It's tiring. Still, look how far we've come :)

Hope everyone else is OK. Namechange how are you? Will post on your other thread too. xx