"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's March 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly use it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Before I came on here I imagined I had the monopoly on self centered mums- it's a relief to know others have them too.
Mine is playing the same old games again. Everything has to be how she wants it, she and my dad plan to visit, we get the food in and everything sorted and they cancel at the last minute (cue crying 9yo).

This time we were due to visit so ready meals were in freezer for DH who was staying behind and..phones up, don't come to us but sending dad to you for the weekend.
Fine but there's not enough food in the house for that, so need to order more even though we're short on money ATM. And I know damn well that dad will probably cancel at the last minute anyway.
I've really had it with all the manipulation now. I've said to DH that we won't visit again but if they want to come here that's up to them. But no more dancing to their tune.

Self-centered poppet, you are not alone on that one on this thread!
Each and everyone of us on here has either a toxic il/s or parent/s with the same kind of selfishness.

I used to have the oposite with my pil before going nc. They used to invite us up to their house for a 'family meal', we had to make our own tea, dh had to cook the dinner, and although we were invited up there well in advance me, dh & our 4 dc were made to share one can of vimto. Yet when we returned the favour, the drinks got drank, no help in the kitchen for us, and they made a mess whilst we picked up after them!
All of this because mainly mil wanted to be the heirarchy, like the queen bee sitting in her chair ordering her mini wasps about.

I'm glad i don't have this anymore, although nc i still have the problems that go with that too unfortunetly. The phonecalls to dh normally including tears and woh is me....

That sounds so frustrating pink. I think you've absolutely made the right choice.

Pumpkin I really feel for your H as he is almost stuck in the middle, I know you try to support him and keep your feelings to yourself though. He really is stuck between a rock and a hard place at times. With your wishes and then the pressure from them as well. Very difficult for him and it must cause a lot of tension at times as there is only so much you can do here, apart from to not see them. He has to make the right choices. You must feel powerless at times and extremely frustrated.

I hope his new job goes well this week. That must be such a relief for you after the last year and the redundancy. I hope your DD also has a lovely birthday in a few days time.

Saamyad welcome. I cannot find the time to post much right now but I hope you've had some good advice on the other thread. It sounds like a very difficult situation for you.

As for me, Mum is back to trying to play happy families and pretend nothing happened again. I on the other hand have no wish to resume contact with an angry and abusive Dad.

Oh for f* sake, the mil has rang our landline at 7am and woke me & dd4 up. Of course i didn't answer it! My dd3 has her birthday today but she is still asleep as it's the summer holidays, why would mil phone up so early.....to cause trouble i bet grrr

pumpkin I feel for you. Please don't let her spoil your dd's special day. Easier said than done I know.

What an absolute cow, trying to sabotage a small child's special day.

Sorry, meant to say birthday.

Thankyou notquite, taken the children out to softplay whilst dh waits in for a parcel. Told him not to correspond with them if they are to phone or text with "woh is me".
But i have a feeling they will phone him whilst i am out........i do hope not.
She has already commented on my fb wishing happy bday etc but she has address it from her aswell as fil, although she knows how i feel about fil having anything to do with my kids-hate her signing of with grandma * and grandad*- he is no grandad!

Pumpkin fb really is the devil isn't it. There you are trying to maintain a boundary with the il and they get to you that way every time!

One of your posts up thread resonated with me. When dm comes to visit we wait on her hand and foot as you would do for any guest in your home. When we go to visit her there is nothing in as apparently" i enjoy supermarket shopping so much and she never knows what we would like", she saves that for me to do. So i buy the weeks groceries. I then spend each mealtime in kitchen cooking and washing up.

When we had our argument a few weeks back (and we've not spoken since) one of the things i was accused of was not 'letting ' her cook for my dc.

Oh gosh meery, exactly the hand on foot thing was never recipracated.
Infact sharing one can of drink between 4 is the thing that sticks out most in my memory!

As for fb, i have even thought about coming off there completely but not only shouldn't i have to, it's the way i communicate with my sister who lives the other side of the country.
I did delete all ils last year, it caused so much ructions i won't be repeating it! Instead i now limit things i don't want them to see.

Marking a place

Hi, I've been reading through some of the thread at the recommendation of posters on the Dear Mum thread (hello :) ).

Just lurking and place marking for now really but just wanted to say hi.

Delete them from FB! Who cares what the repercussions are - you need privacy! Would you be friends with anyone else who posted snipey crap aimed at you?

I know you are right midwife, just need to find the courage to take the plunge. Definetly hiding all future photos and threads from them now and will put a stop to them posting or commenting on my wall. Altleast that is something for now, and if they manage to bypass any of my settings i will delete without a thought.

This is mil only way of seeing my girls so when i fb friended her again in feb i thought it would soften the blow ie the nc issue with the children. But tbh i just think it has made the situation worse as photos of the dc are not enough. Basically she's ruined the only thing she has in regards to my dc and she is lucky enough to even see them on fb as it is.
Well you are right now she is breaching my privacy by commenting on my posts/photos aswell as messaging me it's the last bit of contact left which needs to go.
And at the end of the day if she cared for my dc as much as she says she does she wouldn't have done the things she did to sabotage contact and the children wouldn't have cards and gifts witholded (ploy for contact obviously)!

If she cba to even post a card/gift for birthdays then why bother wishing my children happy birthday or messaging me-it's all about manipulation.

Yes it's all about manipulation & having a public voice. She wants all your FB friends to read the woe is me crap & feel sorry for her!

My PIL are both restricted on my profile and I do not consider them toxic. So I haven't deleted them or refused to friend them but they cannot see anything on my profile unless I mark the privacy setting to 'public' on that status. So really there's almost no point to them being on my friends list! But I can see what they post

I think blocking them pumpkin is the best bet. Then not only can they never find you on there but if you post on a mutual friends status or picture 'they' won't be able to even see that.

I haven't read the below again this morning fully, so hopefully I'm not reiterating anything that's already been said. Did your DD have a lovely day? How's your H's new job?

Hello to the new people.

Hi Dont my dd had a lovely day thankyou, the only bday not ruined by pil and dh has only been to his inset day so far then he starts properly saturday so hoping it all goes well.

Hi Dont my dd had a lovely day thankyou, the only bday not ruined by pil and dh has only been to his inset day so far then he starts properly saturday so hoping it all goes well.

Hi guys.
So I am really struggling here..My mother have in the past been emotionally and at times physically abusive to me, and our relationship have always been very, very difficult. I moved out because of it 7 years ago, and our relationship slowly improved. It was fairly good before I moved back to the village, after living far away for 5 years. She was diagnosed with cancer 16 months ago, and despite all doctors and specialists reassuring her she would recover, she always insisted she would not. And now it does indeed seem like she won't, and might not have that many years left at all.

The issue is, since moving back nearby, she has not stopped shouting at me for everything, and criticise me for anything I say or do. I wear the wrong clothes, cook the wrong food, talk about the wrong topics, don't keep my own place tidy enough - it is an endless list, and I cannot be in the same room as her for more than a few minutes before she begins. It's bad, I can't describe it very well, but she starts a screaming match every single day - if I am not there (I have no bathroom or washing machine where I live, so I have to visit to shower etc.), she will come to my place, or phone me, to tell me off for something or ridicule me. In the start I would argue back, but now I just say "ok" and try to get out of there asap.

I told her after a few weeks that I am pregnant, and she was glad for a brief moment, which was nice. I mistakenly thought it could be a turning point, but it quickly went back to the same routine. I attempted to ask advice about a MC I had, as it suddenly came back on my mind when I got pregnant - I was and am still very worried. Her response was shocking - she said that she had an abortion once, and basically acted as if it was a competition?! I knew about her abortion, so it was not necessary to remind me, but nonetheless, she absolutely had no care about me feeling upset about what happened. I know it's common to have a mc, but sometimes you just want some reassurance, right? She rolled her eyes and kept on being rude to me.

I am at the end of my tethers, I am so sad that she is ill, and I desperately wish we could spend the last few years as a family, not fighting constantly. (I get along well with the rest of my family). She however, will not stop attacking me. I believe that illness or not, nobody is entitled to treat other people as scum, so I feel this is very unfair, despite how hard her life is right now. I have never been treated this horrible, not from her in the past, nor even when I was bullied at school!

Please don't shout at me for being upset "because she has cancer" - I get enough of this IRL. I know she is ill, and I do everything I can to support her and my dad, but I cannot put up with the abuse, and I feel that for the good of me and my baby, I need to cut contact - but I really don't want to. I have tried to talk calmly about how I feel, I have tried to be positive, or focus on the baby in conversations, but she won't have it at all. Please, please can someone help?

Perhaps you do not want to cut contact because you still think she will change for the better?. Also FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) are three damaging legacies that such toxic parents leave their now adult children.

I would not put up with her at all, she having a cancerous condition as well does not give her any further right at all to treat you so poorly and she has done this to you your whole life.

It is more than okay to cut all contact completely with such a person, it sounds like she has some form of untreated and untreatable personality disorder. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; you are her scapegoat for all her inherent ills and your Dad likely is acting as her enabler out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. Has he also failed in protecting you from her outbursts?.

You would not tolerate this from a friend, family are truly no different.

You and your as yet unborn child do not need such a toxic influence in your life, it is not your fault she is this way (her own birth family likely did that lot of damage to her in childhood). I would certainly keep her away from your child, such people often make for being toxic grandparents as well.

just to mention, we are working on the living conditions, so don't worry about that for now :)

She will not be able to look after the little one when it comes around, nor do I want the fighting to be around my little one - as I saw the same thing between my mother and grandmother, and would not want my child growing up thinking that is how it's supposed to be. Yet I am disappointed - our relationship had improved to an acceptable level, but now it's just gone tits up :(

(n/c'd for this]
Haven't posted here before, but am feeling very wobbly this afternoon, so hoping someone can advise.
Back story - abusive mother, and stepfather but I only discovered that my mother was a narcissist when I discovered mumsnet!! Went NC in my forties, and ended up in a year of serious therapy ....which then led to a divorce, because I understood I didn't need to tolerate his abuses either.
The one shining light in my life has been my children.
I spent years agonising that I might repeat parenting patterns, but as they have grown to be independent adults I have relaxed more and more as they are so obviously balanced, happy people who have made healthy relationships. We have talked about the family history, and they have always reassured me that I did a good job and they only have happy memories of childhood. We are close, and I am invited to be involved in my GC's care.

Today - I feel really quite scared. A couple of threads have made me wonder if I am like my mother after all. If I have some kind of issue with distance or boundaries.
Things I do on auto pilot - lots of texting back and forth with the girls, chatting with them about their lives. We sometimes talk about how their friends are doing (several were bridesmaids!). I do ask questions about their lives. All of that is potentially not respecting their independent lives, isn't it.

I know I get upset by criticism ...I know from therapy that its a hangover from all the stuff that went on, but equally, it could make me have a kicked puppy look that a poster mentioned elsewhere about her mother.
I know one of my daughters in particular feels very protective of me, and is a big emotional support. I never leaned on them when they were young, I promise (my role as a child was to listen to all my mothers woes and social slights) but both of them were like dragons in my defence through the divorce, and its just lead on from there. But using your children for that kind of support is narc, isn't it.

Really confused and really upset and need to know if I should go and get some help to try and make some kind of amends, Or sort out what might not be right. I wouldn't hurt them for the world. I tried so hard to beak all the awful cycles of things which happened to me, and it seems maybe I screwed it all up anyway, and they might be posting somewhere that they have a narc mother.

Please could you tell me what you think.

You do not sound toxic at all Ipiss, there is nothing wrong in texting your daughters. Just because your parents were narcs doesn't automatically make you one!
Haven't really got much knowledge of what you have went through but couldn't leave you unanswered. I'm just the dil of toxics.
Hopefully someone will be along soon with more knowledge x

Hi ipsissima .

I recognise a couple of your quotes from my thread and just wanted to clarify a couple of things.

First, I'll give you an example of the kicked puppy look. Mum often talks over me or undermines me with my children. I will not tolerate this and usually deal with it by leading them away and repeating myself or some other such covert tactic (!). On one occasion we were in the car. I had to say something, I said it without thinking about it but it was firm but lighthearted. Mum literally cowered against the car door, practically in a foetal position, as if I'd just punched her. I still feel sick thinking about it. I know other people who don't take criticism well but I've never experienced anything else like this. I don't know if that reassures you!

The text chain in my case was not a conversation. She's often like this actually, bombarding me with messages, if I've been noticeably struggling during a visit, as if she has to claw me back in again. The text I quoted was the last of 10, and I used it specifically as an example to show why an innocuous text which anybody could have sent can feel so intrusive and how that can be such a head fuck. Bt it's in the context of the other 10 messages over a very short space of time without any dialogue. I don't know if that makes sense.

My children are very small but I am scared too that I will be like her.

I know exactly what you mean Name. During our immense final deal breaking row, in desperation I suggested moving us all back to the UK. The house she has here wouldn't be enough to buy something for us all to live in in the UK (we were living with her). So I said she should go back and I'd uproot my whole family and live as near her as I could and she the kicked puppy anf said "so you're kicking me out then?". I mean, WTAF?