Well that's that

[onefewernow]

Name changed for this, but big hint given. (Had to, I have seen MN on his search history).

Well, that's that, a row last night, and he's gone.

I am stunned, relieved, shocked.

But it has been coming, and then some.

My sisters timing was appalling. Even worse that I had had two previous text exchanges with her where I had invited get to meet, she had refused, I had asked her why she had avoided me so obviously, and she had said back that she " didn't see the problem I am seeing, and I always read too much into things", that she was just busy. She pretended to be sick at Xmas, but she told me Friday she has spent time with my brother".

Well, that at least is her issue.

I will admit that the row with him, which I didn't cause, ended badly when I threw a glass of wine at him, feeling horribly cornered when I was telling him he could not force the other sis to change, and he get very angry. Really angry, and just kept repeating that " I just drivelled shit" and worse. His plan was to straighten her out as he saw it with his big mouth, then cut her off. He just wouldn't stop and I had asked him to, and turned away. I was wrong to throw the wine, I saw that within minutes, but he had drenched me back, and left. At the time my sister said he was under stress, but actually he has always been a bit like that, and it turned out the stress was his affair. I had planned to apologise by letter, for the wine, but then I got wind of the affair and decided not to, at the time. His wife is a horror too, a real bully.

My brother has always always called me for all sorts of advice, and after the last bit of the discussion, taken the opportunity to criticise my life, from all angles, it hardly mattered, even my taste in homes, which isn't modern. Who cares- he has enough money to do what he wants.

I had, since my return here, mentioned this tendency and even on one occasion refused to offer an opinion, reminding him of it, which he grinned at. So our row was a long time coming, and I have learned from it that to have an escape route, manage my boundaries earlier, and that counter anger doesn't help.

In truth, as soon as that row happened, and together with my need over the previous year to be the one who needed a lot of support instead of providing it to them, it was bound to go tits up, and sides get taken. So the returnee lost out.

I have accepted it, ages ago.

And to answer the specific question, I provided support and received it with the other friend. And we also exchanged news.

Have you given yourself permission to move away now, to somewhere you and the kids can make a fresh start? Near to people who actually make you feel good about yourself and don't try to score points off you or straitjacket you into roles you don't want any more for yourself?

In your life, outside of your nuclear or family of origin, who really gets you and accepts you for who you are and values that? How could you spend more time with people like that? How can you meet more like-minded souls who will value your intelligence and deep-thinking?

Remember that this isn't the holy grail. So many of us here like you very much and would want to befriend you in real life.

So many of us here like you very much and would want to befriend you in real life.

Why do you think we stick around ?

Well I think the like minded souls are thin on the ground here. But the town is lovely in some ways, and does offer advantages. I have also moved three times in three years, incl a brief spell of renting after we left the city and the first seller pulled out.

Obviously looking back I should have changed my life and not the city , but I had had some counselling and couldn't see the real issues- either some of mine, or his.

But if you remember, I was being gaslight ex at the time, and couldn't see which way was up. So lots of positive change, too.

At the time

And thank you AF.

. . I remembered!

If I ever did meet you, I would remember not to talk too much, now I am better advised.

I like the combination of thinkers and talkers. But you're a good listener too, as evidenced by the help you give others on threads.

What do the kids know about the current circumstances?

Is it appropriate to have a family conference with everything out on the table for discussion i.e. where you live, what that would mean for all your lives, what the kids want from their home life, how you'd all manage if you and H formally separate?

It will be necessary, but I'm not sure about right now.

well, I had a chat with a very good friend last night, who knows me very well. She doesnt live locally, but we see each other regularly. I trust her, and she is very open, honest and truthful, and thoughtful about relationships.

She thinks my family related wobbles are not worth taking too seriously. She says that I can be inclined, when supporting people, to offer advice and practical support, because I really want to help, and that sometimes people just want to offload without the feedback. She says I dont do that all the time by any means, or even half, and that actually i am a good listener. She thinks all family relationships (of origin) are tricky, and that my family in particular wont find my change in role from supporter to supportee comfortable, and may not be aware of that. She says they expected me to return after a 30 year absence(apart from biannual visits) as they remembered me, and to proceed on the same basis.

They are not comfortable unless they are allocating blame, that is the key issue. They are also, in fact all of them, either not honest and assertive, as some of them think they are. They think that saying (some of) what they think whenever it springs to mind, and in whatever language, is acceptable. Im not sure they even notice when they themselves what they accuse others of. An example, there has been alot of criticism of one sisters lying, by my other sister and brother, when I know for sure they lie too when it suits them. They are not comfortable with any weakness, and hide their own. And there is still alot of resentment about my education compared to theirs (so they should blame the 11 plus system!).

Im not going to try to sort all that out with them- they dont want to hear it, and they will only use it as a further example of me 'reading too much' into things and complicating life with a load of counselling crap.

I did actually know all this before I came, but I did idealise the likelihood of working through it with them.

And of course, to be fair, it was patronising of me, really.

I think I'd like your friend too!

The thing with family of origin relationships is that it's understandable always to want a different ending, if the relationships have been problematical in the past. It's also a familiar need for the 'fixers' in life to think it's within their power and remit to change the endings. Sometimes it's emotionally safer and healthier to recognise that familial bonds are not ones we ever choose to forge and sometimes we would never choose those individuals as friends - or them us for that matter!

So I think you're right to draw a line under that and focus on the relationships where you do have a choice.

How are you feeling about H and that relationship today? What are you noticing in the kids?

The youngest is not yet aware of the seriousness of what's happened and is used to not seeing his dad. The middle one is not responding to his dads texts, I am told, but I know that if we do split he has told his sister he would prefer to stay with me by a long shot but would be severely tempted to move to his dad if there were a move on his part back to the city we were in. The 16 year old would not move back, despite the inconvenience of small town life, she says.

It could be tricky if we split and both boys went to him, as courts do not split kids up.

In terms of me, I just do not know what I want. I have had nothing substantive from him either. He texted this morning to ask how I was, and said he was ok.

Actually I did suggest we need a phone call at some stage this week to talk. He didn't reply. He may have got to his work thing, but I suspect he didn't reply on purpose. I will wait.

If he is strategising he is wasting his time. I won't play.

I think I would be prepared to give it another go , but not on any terms. Since we havnt had a conversation since he left, I don't know what he thinks or wants.

If he is offering nothing and blaming me, or doesn't put up a convincing offer, well the decision will make itself.

The middle boy is far closer to me than his dad, but is 15 in the autumn. He misses his old school where the educational offer was better- he is academic- and also the heap of friends he had there . He still sees them during holidays so is aware what he has missed out on. His mates here are occupied by their families alot at weekends, though I think that will change as they enter next school year.

So that is the issue for him. He isn't at the age where he wants to hear suggestions on things to do! And his own dad offers little to him other than football viewing. I can't see he would cope well living with him.

I think he wants you to force the agenda and take responsibility for sorting this out. In a way you've made that first move by suggesting a conversation (which of course is the adult thing to do) and he has acted according to type by ignoring that request.

Try to suspend even the decision about whether you'd be willing to give it another go. And when you do make it, try to separate your feelings about the relationship from your practical concerns about residence, finances and even being single.

He isn't making any offers or concessions and so there is no need to make any yourself. Personally I would give yourself much more thinking time and if pushed into a corner about what you want, say that right now since nothing has changed and there is no promise of it, you think it would be best to separate.

That's good advice. I wasn't planning to make any offers.

How can I? I don't know what I want myself and I can't force a deduction out. When and if you do, you just do.

He is used to waiting for me to talk and he is much better than me at drawing people out before revealing himself. Yes, he has said he missed me and was wrong to shout at the boys, but he has only said about us- by text on Saturday- that "he was wrong to let the situation deteriorate as far as it has ". That is carefully worded , isn't it?

He has said he misses me, and doesn't need space. So I'm taking that to mean he wants to come back. But on what terms and what is he offering? I don't know.

I am ready to see what he has to say, and think it may be illuminating. But if he had nothing to say, it's no big deal right now.

Maybe the absence will make him question whether he can be bothered with the full effort. If he decides he can't, then it saves me a lot of thinking. Maybe his very admiring sister has suggested alternatives to him/ that's ok by me.

He may miss me, but he is having a lovely time, isn't he, being cared for and fussed over by his single sister, and without a school run in sight. Not that he would admit that to himself.

The wording is typical from a manipulative character.

I wouldn't push for anything at the moment, even a conversation. It would be better in many ways to have complete radio silence and for him to communicate with the children directly.

He knows how to play you. What will wrongfoot him is if you refuse to make the moves he expects you to.

Keep your own counsel where he is concerned and give yourself a complete break from any contact at all for a while, would be my advice. You don't need to speak to him and know his thoughts right now - and he certainly doesn't need to know yours.

Well I can hardly refuse a conversation now I've asked. I havt contacted him independently at all since he left and only responded to texts. I just can't see the point in actually refusing to sleep with him.

But of course he is trying to manipulate me -he could have responded. I think he believes in power over, as opposed to power in, a la Patricia Evans. I don't.

And looking at something you said on another thread just now, he has a fair dose of child ego, if not consistently.

Speak with him. That was NOT a Freudian slip!

No, but don't press for that conversation either. Leave it in his court now and remember that if he offers to have it, you have the right to say 'When I asked for a chat I thought that's what I needed. But actually I don't just yet. I'd rather have some time alone with my thoughts for now thanks' and then withdraw.

Do the opposite of what you would normally do - not to play games, but to see whether it gets different results for your own wellbeing. I do think you need time and space without his influence. I hope you do too.

For this to be a productive event, you need to try something different to the ways that have failed in the past. At the moment, asking for a chat is repeating old patterns where you are the pursuer and he is the distancer.

That has been the game often. I hadn't thought I was playing it ATM, but I have given him the means to play it, I see now.

I will bear the right to withdraw after making an offer in mind.

Yes, but if you do, realise that he will play harder and will also withdraw himself and not pursue. But if you think you need time and space, that will be just fine. Because this isn't about playing games for you, just getting what you need from the situation and expressing those needs clearly and unambiguously. It will surprise him if you don't make the move you've always made. It might even cause him to think instead of protracting the game, but that's unlikely just yet. Old habits and dances die hard.

I always seem to pick the wrong men lol, either that or they're all selfish idiots :(

I hope you can be strong for you, we women have such inner strength, we often need to realise we don't need a man to validate our inner being, just be happy in your own skin in be proud of who you are, if he cant accept you for you then his loss lol

As I have said earlier in this thread, you need to detach and stand back from the whole situation. It will help you think more clearly about what you want.

Without any prompting from you, it should be interesting to see what he comes up with - he needs to be the one who is suggesting possible solutions and ideas and be doing all the hard work.