Well that's that

[onefewernow]

Name changed for this, but big hint given. (Had to, I have seen MN on his search history).

Well, that's that, a row last night, and he's gone.

I am stunned, relieved, shocked.

But it has been coming, and then some.

I don't think you ever had counselling for yourself - would this be something you could consider?

I didn't, Mad, and I sometimes consider it. But then I think, what will I learn- I've read plenty, and there is MN.

I wonder what I would get from it, other than talking out loud, for the money.

I don't blame myself. I think that maybe I want somethings that my marriage can't be expected to offer. I think he isn't easy, and is very, very self reliant in practice. He also said on his second text that he "should not have let the situation deteriorate so badly", and he shouldn't have. I have said to him since the autumn that I won't do all of the relationship 'care taking'. Been there, done that.

I'm good at the work I do, but it can be isolating. It's patchy in amount. I've been bored with it got a long time, but the actual days are well paid and the sector I work around would be very hard to get back into, and probably mean a move. Also, I'm 53 in the summer, so partly I can't be arsed with a retrain, and partly I don't think it would necessarily pay.

No option seems best to me, and one doesn't even seem better than the other.

Re the counselling, I wondered if it would help you work out what you want from life and why you have made the choices you did with regards to relationships (I think this is your second marriage?).

Do you have RL support from friends (as well as your sister)? One of the things I did after my DH's affair was to work hard on developing my networks, both professional and personal. I know that I hadn't realised just how isolated I had become as I was so absorbed with juggling work and bringing up DC with a husband who worked away a lot.

I know that I hadn't realised just how isolated I had become as I was so absorbed with juggling work and bringing up DC with a husband who worked away a lot.

I think that's they key thing, and me working away at least one a month for a night. And starting new networks in a small town, as said. I did join an Arts centre board which is busy work, but they are all over 65.

I have some old friends too but not all living right round here, all work, and had lives here already. I do go out with them, but infrequently.

I have some old friends from around the country, but speak to them mostly on the phone. I am also beginning to feel that they have heard enough about this, over the years.

Still , I might.

Re the original marriage, I was 23-28, so Im not whipping myself. He was a bit of a hippy, not very communicative (!) and I found him in a shed with my best friend at the time, "taking sheter from the rain when we made a barbecue " (in a clinch).

I think I have had a bit of a rescue people thing going, which I do see means I must want to be rescued myself. Clearly, I am old enough now to see that they are not a good choice, for that reason- cant both have that shit in our pasts.

Charbon, I missed your post earlier and wanted to respond.

It doesn't work like that though does it? You're either in a marriage and committed to working on it, or you're not. If you're not, it really is best to part

I agree. A friend did suggest to me when we first moved here, that I should try that. It didnt work for me, or suit my personality. I am an in, or not in, person.

Both scenarios might be options (if pointless and time-wasting) if it wasn't for the fact that your children are watching and learning from you both.

That is a worry. On top of that, we have had a huge power struggle all Autumn over the youngest, who he has insisted should be allowed to spend his entire life on Xbox playing minecraft. Clearly he identifies with him in some way, and I suspect he also finds it convenient. He has finally given in on that, but the struggle was not nice, and has delayed my return too trust far longer (in the general sense of trust). In the end he has said he agrees to do it my way to help my relationship with the youngest (who likes that daddy lets him do what he wants), but he disagrees with it on educational grounds, as the child may end up at being best with that type of stuff, which he thinks is the future. (he never read the thread about the woman whose husband sits in his pants on xbox all day!)

Re your last point, yes, he has an issue with his mum and barely contacts her. She is submissive and quiet, and struggled to get a teaching career after his violent dad left when he was young- for 2 years he was passed around family members whilst she trained. His sister is an alcoholic, a real mess. Degree educated, she just had her child removed, and has been sectioned. He hates her, owing to her past violence to him, and he blames his mum for not noticing. He resents that he was adopted.

He did look for power and control in the online stuff, he says. He doesnt quite trust anybody fully, really. He cant forgive people in his past, or see their weaknesses as understandable. He wont have counselling as he has some odd idea it would ruin him, and break him down beyond repair, or being able to cope with daily life. And he also thinks it would give his sister continued power over him, and doesnt see she already has it. For example, he is angry and troubled ATM about having to discuss her recent sectioning with his mother.

Also, he did notice that he sometimes idealises certain older men, and seeks their approval. I think Frank Pittman calls these men homoclites.

Believe it or not, I am actually also thinking about what I mean, as much as what he is.

So much of your discourse is about him

him, him him

I don't think how much you realise that is what your life has been for the last few years. It's like an ingrained habit you can't break.

Oh god, don't take him back!!

You deserve a much, much better life than what you have been living. There's a whole world out there waiting for you all - without him bringing you down.

I do see that AF. I just need to make sense of it.

I do see that I have as many needs as him. I'm just so fearful of regretting it, and making so many things worse . I'm fearful of being alone, isolated , and the kids having so little. He would move, I think, and it would cause child are problems eg overnight. All those things, and more too boring to list.

I'm also fearful that I am half the problem....impatient, unforgiving,self righteous and demanding

By the way, I see he gave my sister £200 of the £300 for holiday cigarettes, so he wasn't playing games there.

Did you drive him to his years of compulsive sexual online activity, with girls young enough to be his daughter ?

Did you cause him to be untrustworthy (bearing in mind you fully suspect you still haven't had the full story about the extent of his infidelities)

Did you force the lies and emotional abuse of you, the gas lighting and the repeated accusations that you must be imagining things ?

No

From all you've posted over the time I've been on MN, the very last thing anyone could accuse you of is impatience. As for forgiving, you've never had the whole story to forgive, have you? I remember feeling shocked at what (if true) you felt you could forgive and it was transgressions of the most woman-hating kind. So I don't think 'unforgiving' is appropriate either. As for being self-righteous, I think you have a different moral compass to him, but it got skewed towards his for a while. I remember you not thinking that porn was such a big deal, or that his run-ins at night with the police in certain districts was an ominous sign of things to come. There's a sense though that your compass about issues like that has been re-calibrated; but that leaves you further apart from him because his never was.

I think the glaring elephant in the room all along has been his misogyny and mistrust of women and it's interesting to see the contrast in his indulgence of your son with his blaming of your daughter for his own internet activities. I'm sure there might be apparently contrary stories of when he's been over-indulgent of your daughters as part of a good-cop bad-cop parenting power struggle, but at its heart there is manipulative behaviour going on with the potential for a woman to come off worse.

Accepting all you say about the structural difficulties connected to money, where you live, childcare etc. one of the attractions of this current situation is the opportunity to try something different - living apart and seeing whether you can wean yourself off the co-dependance that has characterised your relationship so far, on both sides. It's something you haven't tried yet isn't it?

Well, still in one piece. I ate yesterday, and feel physically better, but I only slept 4 hours again. Possibly also due to extra sleep yesterday.

I havent returned any messages except the one yesterday, and in that I said I needed to feel better and have some space to think. He has respected that.

I am reading and rereading the thread.

Happily, my best friend from school, who lives up north, called later on Saturday to say she is in the area today visiting family, and will call in for part of this morning. She knows the situation now , and happens to be a lawyer. Mind you, last time we spoke she had plenty of life issues of her own, so must take care not to blather on endlessly, however tempting.

Glad you feel a bit better physically and that you will be seeing your best friend.

Take care x

Great to read that you'll be seeing a friend. I hope she listens and helps. Just talking about the situation out loud and seeing someone's facial reactions can bring new insights.

Another tiring day, in bed now. Friend came, which was nice. Took youngest to get first specs fitted, which he was ok with. They look cool. A teacher suggested the test, and he was shortsighted- trouble reading board. It was suggested when he was 5, and done, but eyesight ok then. However, I have wondered whether that is at least part of the issue he has been having.

I still don't have a clue what I want to do, so it seems to me that doing nothing is best. H texted at lunchtime to see how I was feeling. I said I was v tired. Later he texted to ask " how is it different without me" and I told him I didn't know, liked the thinking space and suggested I found it helpful. Asked "you?". Asked him where he was now eg hotel for work or still at sisters. Sent a further text minutes later mentioning specs, which I had forgotten.

I got a reply to the specs text later on in evening, asking for photo of them, and no reply to other questions. Sent the photo.

I'm not so fussed, but why start a dialogue he doesn't want? And I can't be doing with the games. Or if it isn't games, even the inability to just say is wearing. It's seems so teenage, emotionally.

I may just reconsider, if I'm really, really honest. But he would have to step up, way more than this. And not just by promising to, at some future point.

Otherwise, it's just more of the same.

No doubt he is missing me, but possibly in truth it is home he is missing, not me.

For me, I'm missing the company, what there is of it, but it isn't enough. Is it?

Going to sleep now but will check in tomorrow .

Do you notice how self-centric that 'how is it different without me' text is?

To which you joined in the game and replied, taking up the mantle of posing the reverse question.

After which he won the game by not replying.

Why would you reconsider when he's still playing mind games and isn't even asking to come home or making any promises to change?

I think he thinks he is teaching you a lesson about how crap your life will be without the great him

Except it won't be

If this is the best he can come up with, tell him not to bother

I didn't return that question. I answered his text telling him how I felt, and said "you?" Ie how do you feel?

I suppose in his mind he has already made it clear over those weekend texts i noted that he misses me, regrets what he did, and doesn't feel the need for space .

But yes, it is game playing of him. And demonstrates his difficulties in revealing his feelings when he is vulnerable. That isn't good, and never was.

I hope regardless that he is using the time to think, as I am. If he wanted to be here that much, why put so little in, after all. He clearly saw the problems returning and decided to ignore them again.

How I feel is tired, alone, worried about the future, and lethargic.

AF I agree. It isn't enough.

The sheer arrogance of that question!

I really would start detaching - do not tell him what you are thinking or feeling as this gives him power.

I am working really hard on myself to resist any codependency, which I had thought I had eradicated, but clearly not.

I need to get the energy back to work on solutions to those structural issues, one way or another.

I wish also I could find the energy to be less of a winter hibernator.

Sorry, yes I meant playing the game in the context of asking a question in your text, as he had in his. I agree entirely that he wants you and everyone else to fall to pieces in his absence - and his ego needs confirmation of that.

I don't however think that he has made any promises to change clear at all. I'm willing you to hold out while the initial shock and feelings of loss pass and you can see what life is really like without him in it.

Thank you. Charbon, it wasn't anything you said. I spoke with his mother this am , as she called for support over his sisters manipulation and her attitude to it.

It made me think about manipulation and codependency on other people's families and my own.

I think I do find it really hard to resist suggestion and persuasion . I also truly know it does not work, and never could. So difficult to stop, though, and face the falling apart which results, when it affects us and others too. So difficult to feel that possible energy, which we might be able to get, but seems doubtful and intangible , and makes us fall back on self blame.

Do you know, when I called my sister for support on Friday, she also said she hadn't seen me for 7 months, despite living locally, as I talk too much, and that she thinks my education has filled my head with nonsense. Partly, she means this sort of thing. I had asked her by text to visit and queried her absence before, but she denied any reason.

She may be partly right, but also she has taken the side of my brother, with whom I had argued finally in the summer about his verbally abusice, bullying and judgemental attitude . In defense of my boundaries, for a change. He is one of those "what YOU need to do " people . I have another sister who is a real mess, but they scapegoat her for all of their owns feelings. Admittedly, she is little use to me or anyone else, but they should worry about their own weaknesses first, and resent that I don't see it the same.

I had forgotten that all this crap was why I left all those years ago. And anyway, I think I could have forgiven her personal foibles on that particular day, and also not mentioned them just then, and after I had openly asked twice previously.

I'm feeling fairly fucked off. And it is NOT JUST ME.

Sorry for capitals, on iPhone, so no alternative that I can figure out.

I'm not surprised you feel fucked off. Your sister's timing was terrible. Talk about kicking someone when she's down!

Intellectually, you know that family of origin relationships are often characterised by jealousies and rigid roles (such as the scapegoat role given to your other sis). Standing up to your bullying brother was a major achievement but this often causes ripples in a family because you stepped out of your assigned role and when that happens, it affects the other roles that people play.

Can you contrast this response with your friend's the other day? Was it different? Or did you find yourself playing your old family role with your friend too?

Your last post is a good reason why individual counselling would be a sensible option for you.

It sounds like your dysfunctional family has made you who you are and explains why H has been able to manipulate you despite your obvious intelligence.