Something terrible happened last night...

[Felix77]

Hi there,

Thought I might post as its been playing on my mind and wanted to see what others thought. We have two year old dd who is the love of our lives and she is very 'mummy demanding' at present. Im still breastfeeding her so some nights she will call out for me in the night. I'll usually go in and comfort her as my husband, although he offers is usually in a very grumpy mood and has difficulty getting up at that time - he will usually complain, swear and carry on abut her waking so I just tell him to go back to bed. Lately things have been changing. My hubby has been stressed at work - I have also (I work PT and also study and he works FT). Last night DD cried out - I waited for a little to see if she would settle and didn't so I went in - bf her and put her down but she wasnt having any of it. So I asked hubby to see if he would do it, (a very rare occasion indeed to see if she would stop fussing for me) he went in, sat down yawning and said to her "go back to sleep" in a stern voice. I poked my head around the corner and whispered "do that thing you do with her". Anyway he started swearing at me telling me to F off (in front of the child). I went in and told him to stop - DD crying and screaming for me at this point. so I told him not to worry and go back to bed. He went to the spare room and as I brought her in with me (in the back ground he was yelling out) I was so furious with him, I went to the bedroom to tell him how insensitive he was and he was still swearing at me. I had a glass with about 50 ml of water in it in my hand and so I threw it on him and told him he needed to cool down and control himself. Anyway this was a big mistake as he jumped out of bed yelling "you Bitch!" and chased me to the bedroom where DD was, he grabbed me by my clothes and shoved me forward and backward so I feel over on my back. DD was crying again crying out "mummy". I was terrified that she could see what was happening. My husband swearing and yelling at me at this point - grabbed me again and through to the hallway and I fell against the stair banister. I told him to get his hands off me and he stormed downstairs. I went back in to be with DD to calm her down - her heart and my heart was beating so fast it took me hours to get back to sleep. This morning he acknowledged that he was wrong for swearing but seemed to have a mental block for being physical. I told him that shoving me and pushing me around was wrong especially in front of dd. i also have a mark on my chest from his fingernails. He said that she only 2 so she wouldn't know - however i disagree and believe this should never happen. It has happened before a few times in our 7 years of marriage but he has never hit me. What do you think about this?

I don't think it's helpful to use that sort of language.

What's the opposite of a "true" victim?

A false one?

I just think the effect of that is to minimise, sorry.

I disagree. I think this is an important and useful discussion.

These are adults who need to take responsibility for their behaviour.

I don't see how this is minimising anything.

Talking about "true victims" is what I referred to when I talked about minimising, Spero.

By saying that the op 'needs to take responsibility for her action' you are clearly implying that she was in some way responsible for the man's reaction.

That is not an important or useful discussion - it is taking the issue of DV back to the dark ages.

So was I.

I don't think it is at all sensible to follow and goad a violent man who has tried to remove himself from a situation. Which is what op did.

To say stuff like that is usually shot down as 'victim blaming' - but here is the thing. It is a stupid thing to do. It does not in any way justify a violent physical assault but to ignore this issue is to ignore the fact that we have to take responsibility for what we do.

It wouldn't be much of a defence to a charge of a serious assault but it might well work in mitigation to any sentence he got.

But I don't see it helps the op to say well - he was 90% to blame, you were 10% or whatever proportion you think is appropriate. Both need to take responsibility for their part in this. The child is the only person who did not make a choice to escalate a situation.

By saying that the op 'needs to take responsibility for her action' you are clearly implying that she was in some way responsible for the man's reaction.

That's not true yellow. Nobody is saying that.

Yes, I am not saying, have never said that she is to 'blame' for her partner's aggressive and criminal behaviour. That was his choice.

But she does have to ask herself why she chose to follow him and throw water over him, knowing he had been violent in the past and knowing her daughter was in the house. She presumably was sufficiently in control of herself not to throw the glass but only the water.

She should have phoned the police immediately and had him arrested. If this goes on she will be 'blamed' for failing to protect her child.

It is not taking violence 'back to the dark ages' to ask that all parents acknowledge and take responsibility for their choices and their behaviour.

As far as I can see it is just substituting the word 'responsibility' for the word 'blame'.

On the one hand spero you state that you have never said she is to 'blame'. On the other you question her actions in a way that makes it clear you think she is partly to blame and also that she is to blame for not phoning the police and will be further to blame for not protecting her child if there is any more violence.

On numerous other dv threads the victim is strongly advised not to blame themselves for the violence that someone chooses to use. What is different here?

Hmm.

Problem with this is it all sounds perfectly reasonable on one level.

But it's not. It's the beginning of telling women they shouldn't provoke men into violence. It's the beginning of telling them to walk on eggshells.

But the OP is already doing that (with regards to not asking him to do his share of parenting at night). Victims of abuse already do that most of the time.

There are enough people out there willing to tell women that they "should ask themselves" why they followed a course of action which led to a man violently attacking them.

I know what you're getting at Spero but I think that it's far too fine a line to tread with any safety tbh. The reason that sort of thing is called victim-blaming, is because that's what it eventually becomes.

Yellow

HE is the blame for what he did. But equally, she is the blame for what she did. And thats why people are saying that they are both responsible for the situation that ensued.

He shouldn't have attacked her, no one has said that he should have done or that she deserved it, but I agree (and said earlier) that she escalated the issue by following him and assaulting him, that surely cannot be denied? As I said, one of the things that an anger management counsellor will tell a man like is to remove himself from the situation and calm down. He tried to do that and she deliberately followed him and made the whole thing far worse than it needed to be.

Him being wrong doesnt stop her being wrong too. And I agree that the only true victim here is the child. She has no choice and no one who is putting her first. Her mother took her from her bed into their bed then and was left there alone while her mother got a glass of water to throw at her father whilst verbally abusing him. The deliberateness (?) if that action is actually quite chilling.

For the childs sake this has got to stop and both of them need professional help.

Actually anger management doesn't work for domestic abuse perpetrators.

Most of them don't have any problems managing their anger - they only ever inflict it on the people they live with.

It's not their anger that's the problem, it's their (often unconsciously-held) belief system.

It's a very common (and dangerous) misconception that DV can be addressed by the perp going on an anger management course. It can't. It teaches the perp how better to abuse and get away with it.

God, no

I hope there is no attempt to resolve this completely unresolveable toxic relationship by one or both going to "anger management classes"

By it's very definition, it makes no sense at all. If you have to "manage your anger" it means you accept is is ok to act out in that way and all that needs to be done is you channel it better.

having "anger" and taking it out on your partner about perfectly normal and common domestic scenarios like a child crying in the night is not fucking normal

I agree, which is why the OP shouldnt have done what she did.

Incidentally, I dont think that AM would work either, but merely pointing out that what he did was what would be suggested by a counsellor if someone feels they are getting angry.

practicality and others are right

contact Women's Aid and rightsofwomen.org asap

Things will get better
You will be OK and you will be happy again

Uh I'm pretty sure retreating to another room and continuing to swear at the other person is not a recommended anger management stategy. It is just him continuing to be very aggressive and bully the OP. I don't think throwing water was a good decision but I certainly cannot see how the understandable, justifiable reaction to this is to chase someone and shove/push them. Even if you think throwing water is assault how does one assault justify a worse one

sorry, yellowbrickrd but the reality is, if you repeatedly allow your child to be in this situation, you will be blamed for failing to protect. you could lose your children.

When have I ever said the op should continue to 'walk on eggshells' or blame herself for his violence?

She should have called the police the moment he laid his hands on her. I don't think she is safe.

But equally she needs to think WHY did I chose to follow him and chuck water at him? What was I hoping to achieve?

But this is getting circular.

She hasn't come back. I hope she is alright. I hope something happens that is positive and they don't just carry on 'until the next time'.

If you repeatedly allow your child to see you being violently attacked you will be held responsible? Throwing 50ml of water on someone who is verbally abusing you is assault? I'm really learning a lot here.

Why are some posters so determined to ignore that op's behaviour wasn't acceptable?!

Her behaviour doesn't make him less of a violent, aggressive bully but it does highlight the very real need for this relationship to end.

That's all anyone is saying!

Both Op and DH were out of order , but to varying degrees. She should be able to go in the room to tell him to shut up , with out being in fear, but she shouldnt have thrown the water, regardless if he would have had turned over and ignored her OR jumped out of bed.

If this was a thread about ' my husband threw water over me last night while i was in bed'' There would be calls of ''leave him!''

The throwing of water was the cayalyst which shown some very ugly and dangerous behavour.

This is a red flag. One which shouldnt be ignored. The fact he hasnt acknowledged it should be setting alarm bells off!

*Actually anger management doesn't work for domestic abuse perpetrators.

Most of them don't have any problems managing their anger - they only ever inflict it on the people they live with.

It's not their anger that's the problem, it's their (often unconsciously-held) belief system.

It's a very common (and dangerous) misconception that DV can be addressed by the perp going on an anger management course. It can't. *
great post fast

Acknowledgement that one half of a couple is 'a violent, aggressive bully' should be enough in itself to 'highlight the very real need for this relationship to end.'

I dont think some posters like to think the unthinkable, that a woman's actions may have contributed in any way to a man acting violently.

This man has done it before.
The poster will not say whether she has been violent at all before.
Maybe she has, maybe she hasnt.

As just about everyone has said, this is not at all a healthy relationship.
In fact, this is a violent relationship, which the op has yet to see. Or perhaps, yet to accept and acknowledge.

Felix - I can assure you if you contact people such as these (apologies if someone's already linked this) you will not be blamed in any way for your partner's violence.

A quote from the above website: The abuser is always responsible for the violence, and should be held accountable. There is no excuse for domestic violence and the victim is never responsible for the abuser's behaviour.

If you are still reading I hope you will concentrate on the excellent posts from practicality and fastidiablueberry.

The abuser is always responsible for the violence, and should be held accountable. There is no excuse for domestic violence and the victim is never responsible for the abuser's behaviour.

No one is saying that she is to be blamed for what he did. Why do you keep assuming that? But the quote above could just as easily be levelled at the OP, and until she realises that then her relationships and her childs upbringing will always be blighted by domestic abuse, whichever parent is involved.

Yes yellowbrickrd. If you enter into a relationship with a violent man, if you let him back into the house time and time again to beat you in front of your children, if you won't co operate with the police or take out an injunction, your children could be removed from your care by the State because you have failed to protect them.

Why do you express surprise about this? It is sadly common. Time and time again I deal with women who have been raped and beaten with their children in the next or even same room. But the next time he knocks on the door they let him in. It seems that any man is better than none.

It is very sad. I guess it is a self esteem issue. Everyone should be given as much help and support as possible to get out of violent relationships - or even better, not get into them in the first place.