Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Something terrible happened last night...

193 replies

Felix77 · 22/02/2013 15:12

Hi there,

Thought I might post as its been playing on my mind and wanted to see what others thought. We have two year old dd who is the love of our lives and she is very 'mummy demanding' at present. Im still breastfeeding her so some nights she will call out for me in the night. I'll usually go in and comfort her as my husband, although he offers is usually in a very grumpy mood and has difficulty getting up at that time - he will usually complain, swear and carry on abut her waking so I just tell him to go back to bed. Lately things have been changing. My hubby has been stressed at work - I have also (I work PT and also study and he works FT). Last night DD cried out - I waited for a little to see if she would settle and didn't so I went in - bf her and put her down but she wasnt having any of it. So I asked hubby to see if he would do it, (a very rare occasion indeed to see if she would stop fussing for me) he went in, sat down yawning and said to her "go back to sleep" in a stern voice. I poked my head around the corner and whispered "do that thing you do with her". Anyway he started swearing at me telling me to F off (in front of the child). I went in and told him to stop - DD crying and screaming for me at this point. so I told him not to worry and go back to bed. He went to the spare room and as I brought her in with me (in the back ground he was yelling out) I was so furious with him, I went to the bedroom to tell him how insensitive he was and he was still swearing at me. I had a glass with about 50 ml of water in it in my hand and so I threw it on him and told him he needed to cool down and control himself. Anyway this was a big mistake as he jumped out of bed yelling "you Bitch!" and chased me to the bedroom where DD was, he grabbed me by my clothes and shoved me forward and backward so I feel over on my back. DD was crying again crying out "mummy". I was terrified that she could see what was happening. My husband swearing and yelling at me at this point - grabbed me again and through to the hallway and I fell against the stair banister. I told him to get his hands off me and he stormed downstairs. I went back in to be with DD to calm her down - her heart and my heart was beating so fast it took me hours to get back to sleep. This morning he acknowledged that he was wrong for swearing but seemed to have a mental block for being physical. I told him that shoving me and pushing me around was wrong especially in front of dd. i also have a mark on my chest from his fingernails. He said that she only 2 so she wouldn't know - however i disagree and believe this should never happen. It has happened before a few times in our 7 years of marriage but he has never hit me. What do you think about this?

OP posts:
Bogeyface · 22/02/2013 23:14

Walter and AF are both right in that, regardless of rights and wrongs, if this is what they have come to then its time to call it a day. If only for the sake of the poor child.

I grew up in a family where the parents screaming at each other was normal. Broken crockery, threats to leave followed by hours where the threatener disappeared (which is DAYS when you are 5 and frightened), family wading in to "help". It all has an effect. I ended up in abusive relationships until I was 28 because it was all I knew! I thought throwing milk bottles at your husbands head meant you loved them.

Bogeyface · 22/02/2013 23:16

Incidentally, the parents are still together 45 years on. Dsis and I are both still very fucked up.

ifso · 22/02/2013 23:16

I see what youre saying bogey, but the implication is still there from many on this thread that had she not hung around him,hovered around (as her instincts were obv telling her to when he was near her dd) then nothing at all would have happened that evening.

Strange logic if you ask me

ifso · 22/02/2013 23:20

Sorry to hear that Bogey. Agree with you it needs to end tho for the kid's life if nothing else. Wonder what OP is doing this eve hopefully not throwing water at anyone

Bogeyface · 22/02/2013 23:32

But Ifso what he did was

"said to her "go back to sleep" in a stern voice"

Sometimes I do that. I have had 5 two year olds and have 1 that will be two very soon. Sometimes the "OK, jokes over, sleep time now" works, especially coming from the "bad cop" parent. He was parenting differently, but not abusively. So no, she didnt need to hover, she didnt need to follow him, she didnt need to assault him. She didnt actually need to do anything but trust his parenting ability, and she didnt.

Perhaps thats why he is so angry. He needs help, serious help with the way he deals with his anger, what he did was completely and utterly wrong. My point is that just because what he did was wrong doesnt make what the OP did, right.

sudaname · 22/02/2013 23:43

I hardly think OP would have asked him in first place to help out/take over getting DD to sleep if she didnt trust him not to be abusive to their DD.
She calls their DD in her opening paragraph 'the love of our lives'. She goes on to say he always offers to get up in night but then is grumpy about it,so by and large she does it.
Also when she asked him on this fateful occasion to step up to the mark, she said he did so, apparently without protest.
Sorry but l am not getting picture of anxious mummy behind childs bedroom door to protect her child from abusive daddy, ready to jump in.
All he did was say to her 'sternly' to go back to sleep. I for one stand by my 'helicoptering' remark about the OPs intervention at that point.
There is nothing to suggest the man is directly abusive to his DD - l say directly because yes l know that being abusive to her mother in front of DD isnt healthy, but a child witnessing abuse and child abuse are not one and the same.

sudaname · 22/02/2013 23:45

Sorry Bogey x post - l agree - obviously !

cjel · 22/02/2013 23:51

Must say I agree with Bogey and sudaname.

Skang · 23/02/2013 07:54

You shouldn't have thrown water at him, but violently assaulting you in front of your two year old who was scared and callin for her mummy?? Just get out. There is nothing worth that.

My 16 month old DD was recently terrified of a doctor listening to y chest with a stethoscope and was calling out 'no!' and trying to pull it off. A 2 year old seeing mummy and daddy being violent to each other and mummy being scared?? That is just awful. The poor little thing.

FastidiaBlueberry · 23/02/2013 09:58

I think those of you analysing the actual incident are making the mistake of not acknowledging the context of the incident.

Of course saying "go back to sleep" in a stern voice isn't in of itself abusive.

But this man already has a history of abuse. He's already used violence against the OP before this incident and he makes it very clear that he doesn't want to be asked to "help" parent his own child.

The context here, is that she usually doesn't ask him because he is "grumpy" about it. That to me sounds like minimising of eggshell-stepping - the reason some people are permanently "grumpy" about something, is so that they're not asked to do it. When adults do it about looking after their own children, combined with other abusive behaviours, it's recognised as an abusive behaviour.

One of the reasons emotional abuse is so much more difficult to identify and more pernicious than physical abuse, is because it's actually incredibly hard to spot it. This is a classic example: you give the verbal message that you're willing to "help" parent your own child and then every single time you're asked to do it you make clear that you are resentful and unwilling to do it. What this leads to, is the narrative that you are a willing co-parent while the reality is the opposite of the narrative - the other parent is afraid to ask for co-parenting and does the "eggshell treading" thing around that particular issue. But because of the narrative, it's her fault she doesn't ask for help, because the narrative helps to obscure the reality.

That's how emotional abuse works. And there is no physical abuse ever, without emotional abuse underpinning it. I really do think context is everything here and those of you only looking at the incident without acknowledging all the underlying dynamics, are making a mistake - probably with the best will in the world, but 1 in 4 women live with domestic violence and the lack of recognition of its dynamics, is one of the major reasons why. I think it's really important that we recognise it.

waltermittymissus · 23/02/2013 10:04

I recognise a lot of the posters on this thread who are very knowledgable about the dynamics of abusive relationships.

I think we've all acknowledged it is abusive. Some of us feel though, that given they are both abusive, it is time to call a halt to it so that child doesn't suffer any more for it.

MrsSham · 23/02/2013 10:06

Can I just say I have vivid memories from around 2 or 3 of domestic violent incidents and well quite old now but remember and it has its effects.

delilahlilah · 23/02/2013 11:01

OP - some responses here are very helpful to you others are getting over excited. Those of you having a field day over throwing water, not one of you has noted the '50ml' - do you no how much that is? Absolutely miniscule. A double measure of a spirit served in a pub. It was not going to terrify him, it just wasn't helpful to the situation. Whoever mentioned him going to 'dry off' - a mere wipe with a sleeve would remove such a small amount of water.
The OP has committed one minor indiscretion here, not incited all of his behaviour.His behaviour was out of order prior to this. Rather than trying to pick this to bits, the basics seem to be that he is volatile and aggressive and the OP is better off without him. When you have been a victim of domestic abuse / violence it is possible to snap and do something back that you would never normally do / do to another person. Living with someone with a temper is not a good place for you or your DD.
Have you ever displayed any aggression towards any other person in your life OP?

yellowbrickrd · 23/02/2013 11:52

For those who have categorised the op's actions as 'assault' imagine for a moment that the police had been called - what would have been their first priority? A shaken person with nail marks on their chest apologising profusely for throwing water or a person with a bit of water on them who has a 'mental block' about the attack?

Hope you are feeling a bit better today felix.

waltermittymissus · 23/02/2013 12:06

It's not a competition yellow!

I think there's a bit of misunderstanding here.

I think she is better off out of this relationship. They both are.

His behaviour doesn't excuse hers that's all I'm saying. And I'm not saying that to be nasty. I think felix will only benefit from acknowledging her behaviour as completely unacceptable.

Not in comparison to his!

I would categorically, 100% encourage her to leave as I would always encourage someone to leave an abusive relationship.

Spero · 23/02/2013 13:45

I agree its not a competition. Have said repeatedly that the man's actions were more dangerous. But agree with all who say both have behaved wrongly.

Chucking water at someone is an assault. It's not likely to end up a court, but it could. That's not my view, that is the definition of common assault in the criminal law.

But this is derailing that thread. The central point has been made over and over. This can't go on. One of them -probably the physical weaker one - will end up seriously hurt or dead and their child will be emotionally screwed up or even hurt if she tries to intervene to protect her mother.

AnyFucker · 23/02/2013 13:47

I haven't examined the dynamics of this particular incident

My view is that because this has now happened, it is overdue that the relationship be ended

I wouldn't spend any time looking for where the blame lies, or taking sides. If either of these people were my friend in RL, whilst acknowledging which one of them it would be more likely to be, I would be urging them to protect their child from bearing any further witness to the wreckage of this relationship.

yellowbrickrd · 23/02/2013 14:24

What on earth do you mean 'it's not a competition'? I am not trying to score some petty point here, i was asking a genuine question in my last post.

I am also hoping to mitigate, for the op' sake if she's still reading, some of the terrible distortion i have seen on this thread. She has already felt the need to apologise twice here for doing something extremely minor which resulted in an inexcusable attack on her. Posters who have highlighted the water throwing to the same extent as the attack are potentially making the op feel that she deserved the attack or that somehow the water throwing minimises it.

It's not only the child who is vulverable here, the op herself is in real danger from this man.

Spero · 23/02/2013 15:33

I have said it is not a competition because you seem to want to analyse this in terms of who did worse, to extent that it reads to me at least that you are attempting to say that the water throwing should not even be balanced in the scales as it is so trivial.

I, and I think pretty much everyone else have all been saying the same thing - there is no excuse or justification for what he did and he is likely to be dangerous, this is likely to escalate.

But to deny that water throwing is in itself an assault is just wrong and I don't think moves the argument on at all.

Both parties have behaved badly. The consequences of their behaviour for each other and their child may vary in severity but the actions of each demonstrate a massively toxic and unhealthy relationship.

A relationship is usually a dynamic, and each party has to recognise and take responsibility for their own behaviour.

wannaBe · 23/02/2013 16:12

the one true victim in all this is a two year old child.

None of the rest is justifyable. none of it.

FastidiaBlueberry · 23/02/2013 16:56

So the fact that one of the parties has marks on her skin is totally and completely irrelevant then?

How unlike the home life of our own dear queen. Hmm

I'm not in favour of the blame allocation - how much percentage can we allocate here, how much there, what proportion of this is criminal assault, what proportion of that - it's all pretty pointless, it just all needs to end - but to try and pretend that leaving marks on someone's skin is irrelevant, is minimising domestic assault IMO.

LoopDeLoops · 23/02/2013 17:06

Probably not important, but can I ask what "the thing he usually does with her" usually is?

Spero · 23/02/2013 17:22

Who is saying the physical assault on the woman is irrelevant??
Who?

I feel like I am in an alternative dimension here. What he did was appalling, criminal, wrong, unjustifiable etc.

But I am really worried by the trend of some seeming to say that was she did was so utterly trivial it shouldn't even be discussed.

They both behaved badly. It has got to stop. Because it will hurt their child.

FastidiaBlueberry · 23/02/2013 17:44

Sorry Spero, I thought Wannabe was saying that actually.

"the one true victim in all this is a two year old child."

That emphasis on the word one, for me carries a clear implication that the physical assault didn't have a victim.

It did.

Spero · 23/02/2013 17:49

Of course it did, and I hope I have stressed over and over how absolutely unjustified and dangerous his behaviour was. She could be seriously injured or even killed - I don't think anyone is denying that.

But there is an interesting undercurrent that she should not in anyway take responsibility for her own behaviour because it was so 'trivial' in comparison with his, and lots of posts have wasted time arguing over whether or not this is an assault. It is. It's just not one the police would be particularly interested in pursuing, especially when faced with a serious physical assault. I totally accept that.

But it is NOT 'victim blaming' to say that we all have to take note of our behaviour and take responsibility for it. Violence in relationships - at least from what I have seen over a decade - is rarely 100% evil male perpetrator, 100% innocent female victim. The problem is, if a man hits he could kill you, if a woman hits she will do less damage. But that doesn't mean a woman who hits should never have to account for her behaviour.

I don't think violence or threatening violence to another human being is ever justifable, unless you are trying to protect yourself or someone else from being killed.

And I totally agree with Wannabe that the one 'true' victim IS the child. If by 'true' she means the one person in this sorry mess who has just had to sit back and watch and listen to her parents behave in this way. She has no choice, she can't ring the police or get out. There is masses of research on the really, really serious impact on children of having to watch or listen to violence in their home.

Swipe left for the next trending thread