would you date a transgendered man?

[ecofreeek]

I am in my late 30's and single (divorced). Recently though work I met a man who seemed really nice. We flirted a bit and last weekend he asked me out for a drink. It went really well, nice snog! and we arranged to meet for dinner this week

At dinner he told me that basically he used to be a woman. He has had testosterone treatment for many years and both breasts removed and a hysterectomy. But not the surgery that makes a penis...

I really like him. But I'm a bit freaked out. I guess that's why he told me 'early' in our dating... I dont want any more children s thats not an issue... its the whole man thing - he looks like a man, acts like a man and I would never have guessed that biologically he is not a male...

the sex thing ....

would you date a transgendered man >?

Psychology is related to neuroscience

I thought that was psychiarty ?

I know one of them is a medical degree and one isn't.

Or maybe that's the American system.

MIL saw all three, psycologist for talk thearpy, psychiatrist for meds and nurologist for managing three seperate brain based conditions what with all the conflicts etc.

Mind you, all three were in the hospital, so one can't be a non medical degree.

Psychology is related to neuroscience.

You can do psychological research after specializing from a medical degree (like, say, Dr John Stein), or after a psychology degree. One of the advisors on my PhD is a psychologist who did a BSc, but he has colleagues who're medical doctors who got into psychology afterwards.

It was A Levels and it was a while ago. I remember something along the lines of there being a bigger dark spot in one of the genders?! I'm sure I saw a video, I cant quite remember to be honest. I just remember a horrible story of a guy who was born with both sets of genitalia and his parents decided to raise him as a girl, the nurture over nature thing, but he knew he was a male and they'd got it wrong. Poor thing, think he killed himself. Maybe I'm wrong... it was a while ago. Or maybe my teacher was just giving us some obscure study as if it was fact..

There are people who were born with ambiguous genitalia, raised as one gender, and had huge problems, including someone who killed themself.

Though, I don't know how exactly that would relate to being born with non-ambiguous genitalia and also having huge problems.

I'm totally relying on Cordelia Fine here - but I think the issue is that, while we know there are some very obvious physical differences between male and female brains (size, for example - women are typically smaller than men; their brains are therefore typically smaller), and some more contested physical findings, what we don't always know is how the physical architecture relates to the cognitive processes, let alone to really complicated things like identity.

There's some really fascinating research into trying to work out which physical areas of the brain are responsible for what cognitive functions. People used to think they were getting this stuff pinned down, so they knew that, say, this area did speech and that one did physical co-ordination. But then there's been later research (especially on damaged brains in recovery) that seems to be suggesting it isn't that simple. We know people can sometimes re-utilize bits of the brain if the bit they need has been damaged. And that makes it really hard to know whether differences between male and female brains are learned or innate, and how significant they would be anyway.

I really, really wish I had the sort of brain that would let me study psychology!

I just remember a horrible story of a guy who was born with both sets of genitalia and his parents decided to raise him as a girl, the nurture over nature thing, but he knew he was a male and they'd got it wrong. Poor thing, think he killed himself

But that is intersex rather than transgendered isn't it ?

I'm not sure about the "medical" side of things, but poltically in some quarters there seems to be quite a discussion from some people who are intersexed and not wanting to be grouped together with transgendered people.

re-utilize bits of the brain if the bit they need has been damaged

ohh, like this little girl who lost half her brain and it sort of ...managed without a whole half

Is there a specific sort of brain you need to study psychology ?

There must be a huge trauma to growing up to find out your parents assigned you a gender at birth. Especially because I think it used to be considered good practice not to tell the child and to perform surgery so they looked like a normal girl - but then you can impair someone's sexual function. It's horribly sad.

loq - ohhh ... yes, I've read about people who don't have half their brain. Amazing, but terrifying.

I am not a very scientific person. I couldn't design an experiment to save my life.

There's neuropsychology, and neuropsychiatry. Psychiatrists prescribe drugs, psychologists don't and tend more to investigate how the brain looks links to how we acts/think/feel. Anyway, this feels like a diversion so i'll bugger off again. But point well made that there is good and bad psychology research.

I just remember the nature vs nurture thing and that at some point or another I watched a video that had something about brain slices and there being a bigger 'dark spot' in one of the genders. I remember it specifically saying that they sliced the brains of transgendered people and that they were right that they were born in the wrong body. I'm like 99.9999% sure that this was said. Keeping in mind though that it was a levels and I didn't pass psychology [scepticle]

Anyway, this feels like a diversion so i'll bugger off again.

Oh! But it's interesting. And it is sort of relevent if the common belief is "it's in the brain!"... but that might not actually be the case.

It is kind of hard for lay people to work out which facts they are hearing are fact facts, or sort of simplified facts, or disputed facts if they have no,idea how all the diciplines work.

I have a new respect for gender studies. It always sounded a bit flaky to me, I had no idea that, it covered so many diciplines and had to be looked at from so many angles with loads of "ologies" involved.

I've certainly heard of research that's done things like that pipsy. I'm not very well up on it, but I think the issue is, you can find correlations, but is correlation the same as causation?

I would be fascinated to know whether, say, rad fems or lesbians or women who did well at maths and science, also had seemingly 'male' brains. There's a lot of research into this sort of thing - Simon Baron-Cohen has a theory that (to paraphrase rudely) says the typical male brain is a genius ... except some women have male brains. But it's still a male brain!

It's just the term he likes to use.

It's tricky, because whenever someone interprets data, they put their own slant on it, and it's very hard to tell what's innate and what might have been shaped by nurture, or even by the preconceptions of the person running the experiment.

It's just the term he likes to use

Well bully for him

Male brains are genuius and women are only genius if they have a male brains ?

Charming.

I saw a docu on a pair of male twins, there was an accident during circ, so one twin lost his penis and was immediatly brought up as a girl becuase the docs at the time insisted. He killed himself too I think.

That poor guy, the one whose parents raised him as a girl. :( There was an interesting SVU episode involving that as well.

If we're still on the original question...I honestly dunno. I'm not attracted to fanjos in any way whatsoever, but if I reaaaaalllly liked the person maybe I could work with it.

loq - well, indeed. There aren't enough posts left on this thread (and there's over 500) for me to say what I reckon to him, so ...

It is appallingly sad about the twins. Imagine having a constant reminder in your twin, too.

Found it, David Reimer

Transistioned to female aged 22 months, rejected femine identity from aged 9. Lived as a male from 15, killed himself before he was 40"

Bloody hell!

"Dr. Money forced the twins to rehearse sexual acts involving "thrusting movements" with David playing the bottom role.[4] As a child, David Reimer painfully recalled having to get "down on all fours" with his brother, Brian Reimer, "up behind his butt" with "his crotch against" his "buttocks".[4] In another sexual position, Dr. Money forced David to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top.[4] Dr. Money also forced the children to take their "clothes off" and engage in "genital inspections".[4] On at "least one occasion", Dr. Money took a photograph of the two children doing these activities.[4] Dr. Money's rationale for these various treatments was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity".[4]"

That is absolutely sick.

Holy shit! I've read about David before but didn't know that.

That was part of the Law and Order: SVU episode though.

Sickening and so sad.

Every kind of human misery, there's some sick bastard taking advantage.

I'm not attracted to fanjos in any way whatsoever, but if I reaaaaalllly liked the person maybe I could work with it.

The thing is, trying to put myself in somebody else's shoes, I am not sure how happy or comfortable I would be in a sexual/romantic encounter or relationship if somebody was trying to "work with it". When then "it" was a fundamental part of me involved in the sex act.

For example, I would be extremely leery of going to bed with a gay man who despite my not being his usual type, liked me lots and was "open" to the idea of "working with" a vagina.

Which I think comes down to another personal failing I am just too flaming needy and too paranoid to get down to business where somebody could suddenly feel that it wasn't working for them and change their mind in the middle, or I might have to see them visibly steeling themselves to "work with it".

I don't think I am emotionally robust enough for that sort of possibility. I'd be crushed if it didn't end well.

LDR

Want to guess what that docs speciality was ?

?

I'm not likely to explode, I promise!

Go ahead.

It's one of those people that annoy you with their shoddy statistic and falsiwotnot theories...

Psychologist

Actually maybe his name still crops up on discussions about gender.

John Money. He came up with the "bodymind" concept in the late 80s.

Oh, they don't all annoy me! Loads of psychologists are brilliant. I just think that psychology as a discipline has a disproportionate influence on the media, and the media isn't very good at interpreting psychological research.

There are a couple of psychologists I can think of who I genuinely think are charlatans (and I know psychology profs who tell me this, too), but there are also loads of good ones.