It will all be ok in the end. If it's not ok, it's not the end...the crap continues and I need hand holding again please

[chocoreturns]

So, I guess I'm at a WWYD moment. I have thrashed it out in my own head every which way I can and come up with nada, no solution. Zip. So I am turning to the collective wisdom of MN to help me out. I figure a quick straw poll of you lot will tell me pretty swiftly what my next step should be.

It all boils down to contact with my twunt STBXH for my boys, now aged 2 and a half, and nearly 6 months. This is the current set up: I drive them half an hour away to my MIL, EOW on both a Saturday and a Sunday morning. I sit in a hotel cafe for an hour and a half on both days to wait for our baby to be brought back. Usually DS2 is returned within the hour. I then drive home. Total time spent doing this, 3 hours on both days. I get zero child free time as a result, bar the forty five minutes or so in the cafe waiting with a cup of tea. DS1 is then played with by STBXH until around 4.30, MIL makes all their meals and then MIL ferries DS1 home to me.

STBXH does not pay for his Mum's travel costs, or contribute anything to the cost of putting him up with his girlfriend (who was the OW) every other weekend. He does travel about 3 hours by car to stay there. MIL did not want his gf to stay with them, because she was utterly devastated by their affair but twunt told his mum that unless she put up his gf as well as him, he would simply stop coming to see the boys. MIL has decided to do what he has told her to because she can't bear the thought of him giving up on the children altogether. I think she's mad, but I say nothing - their relationship is none of my business. I don't like being lied to (they have all maintained that OW didn't meet DS's until last weekend but she's been coming since DS2 was born) but realise I can't do anything about that.

Anyway that info is purely to avoid drip feeding, it may or may not be relevant. The place I'm at now is that (bar the drive to stay at MIL's) twunt STBXH does nothing to take responsibility for his time with the DS's. He does not arrange activities, pay for anything they do, cook or contribute to the cost or effort of bringing the boys to see him. Most of that is done by MIL or I. I can see what a strain it's putting MIL under. We have a good relationship and she is often in tears at my house. Her own DH is undergoing treatment for cancer while they play host to STBXH and his girlfriend and our kids EOW. I don't feel I can keep letting things carry on like this indefinitely because it's so unfair on them. They are in their late sixties, dealing with a possibly terminal illness, and all this cost/effort too. I know they do it because if they didn't, he would probably not bother to see our kids.

I'm reaching a point where I personally think that's not a bad thing. Contact was suspended for 5 weeks recently due to him bullying and intimidating me through contact, the kids didn't even notice he was gone. Everyone else did though - the opportunity to relax was amazing and I saw the benefit not just on me, but on MIL and her DH.

I am considering saying to him in the NY that the current arrangements do not work for me, so I will no longer be ferrying the kids to him or waiting around all morning. If he wishes to see them I'll facilitate a reasonable amount but I won't be taking them to MIL any more. If he wants to see them there he has to come get them at the very least. I suspect if I ask him to tell me exactly what contact he wants, he won't bother. So, after that epic post. WWYD? Carry on as we are so the boys have some pathetic relationship with him? Or stop it as I can see the arrangements are taking advantage of his mum and wearing people down, but risk him not seeing them at all?

I'd say it's a total no-brainer. Only adjustment I'd make is not waiting until the NY but start now with the no ferrying and sitting about in coffee shops. Takes more than a few chromosomes to make a father and your children really won't suffer if he chooses not to keep up contact.

I am hesitant to pull the plug on their second Christmas, not for the sake of the twunt but because I know my MIL will have put in a lot of effort and her DD and my DN's will be there which DS1 is excited about. I think it will make me look like a vindictive bitch when actually, I'm just sick and tired of being made to feel responsible for his relationship with our kids. I know he will play the victim regardless but it does seem like a particularly shit thing to do. I often find myself agreeing to stuff so I don't let down MIL though, even when it's blatently a piss take by him.

As an aside, to explain how utterly pointless it is to try and discuss things maturely, this is typical behaviour for him: His gf runs out of the back door everytime I drop off the kids and is texted by someone to come back when I've gone :( it's like it's some pathetic little game to get one over on me. I don't even think it's that important she's there! I only asked to be told so I could answer questions from DS1 if he had any, with a united front. Instead DS1 has actually been using a fake name for her to try and hide the fact he's been spending time with her... how ridiculous is that??

OK so you are agreeing to and facilitating contact between your children and their father, that is the extent of your responsibility. As per your last paragraph. You should tell him that the children are available from x to x on x days and then all other arrangements are up to him.

You aren't stopping him. The ball is in his court.

Good luck x

Choco - it really is quite simple. He has made his bed and must now lie in it. He is an adult and is, or at least should, be able to take responsibility for his actions. Why should he bother? You and his mother do everything for him.

I second Cognit, tell him right now that if he wants to see his kids, he needs to make the effort. Yes it is sad that potentially he won't bother and they'll miss out on a father but is he being a father anyway? You might prolong these visits for a few years and once the kids are old enough, they'll see straight through him anyway in that he never makes the effort.

Your MIL sounds lovely though and I would do my utmost to stay in touch with her. Perhaps once she stops in this madness of ferrying the kids around, he'll be true to his word and move out. Less stress for MIL and perhaps you could go and see them once a month and stay for the night so that they don't loose the contact with their grandchildren.

You have been very kind to go through this effort of enabling him to see his kids but it takes two to tango. If he can't be arsed, you can't make him, however sad it is.
Good luck!

Hiya choco.

Wow, what horrible behaviour on his part .

Have no knowledge at all re contact arrangements, but can totally see why it's not working for you. Also think that while your MIL is generally a good'un and having a tough time etc, you need to think about boundaries in your relationship with her. It isn't appropriate for her to cry to you about the situation; or for you to feel you have to put up with difficult contact arrangements for her benefit. She cannot make her son fulfil his responsibilities as a father and it is unfair of her - after all that's happened - to make you complicit in her efforts to do so.

It might be better for your ex to pick up both DSs at your place on just one weekend day, take them somewhere local until it's time for Ds2 to be returned, then go to MIL's for more time with DS1 and bring him back later.

Have you had legal advice on contact etc?

What is this re christmas? really hope you're not ferrying them about this xmas day, with your ex and ow having mil run around after them and doing the driving home while they enjoy a drink! Because that would be crazy!

You would not be letting MIL down. mil needs to deal with her own situation. Your responsibility is to your DC - including facilitating contact but not doing it all for your ex as you have been - and yourself, and have a lot of your own stuff going on.

If I were you, I wouldn't go to any effort to facilitate his contact. He should be picking them up and dropping them back.

Where is Blackcurrants? Would surely have stuff to say on this!

it's the 27th. He didn't want to see them over actual christmas as that was inconvenient. Don't get me started on that...

As it is, he doesn't even acknowledge DS2 exists half the time. His attitude is appalling. I know this needs to stop I just don't know how to do it in the best possible way.

You need to have a break too, it must be killing you, forget anyone else in the arrangement. Yes, he should be picking them up and dropping them off, and anything else it totally unreasonable. xx

I was about to ask the same thing about Christmas. It's not bitchy to remind people that your kids are not a parcel and you are not a just in time courier. Access does not mean 'I deliver them to any point you say within a 100 mile radius'. You offer contact and it's up to him how he achieves it.

I have to say the reason we are in this pickle in no small part is due to my abiding concerns over his ability to look after either of them well. DS1 has been returned blue in the face with cold on more than one occasion, with a dirty unwiped bottom, needing his asthma inhalers but not having been given them. I am loathe to send DS2 to him unsupervised at all. Hence my dithering about leaving the ball completely in his court.

So the set up with MIL came about in order to have them in a supervised environment, but now he's taking the absolute piss and not doing anything other than lording it over MIL and treating it as a dirty weekend gettaway for him and the OW where he gets to 'play' families with her! But only with DS1 who is fun. Not DS2 who cries and is a pain.

Gah, this is shit.

A ok, that's not totally terrible then. So maybe just get that over with and start anew in the new year, having taken advice and got support for yourself to be ready for the inevitable responses!

Throughout this you have been so reasonable and fair. Am v sorry your ex continues to be such a shit.

Choco, I cannot tell you what to do

but this is what I would do

Forget what has gone before

Make your children available for a set number of hours/days a week....those that suit you

After that....it is all his responsibility

Everything else is simply you enabling this childish and pathetic man who lets all the women in his life tiptoe around his fuckwittedness

it's time to stop

if he doesn't man up...that is his problem

your kids will be fine, I promise you

" I know this needs to stop I just don't know how to do it in the best possible way."

Have you got a pen and paper? Write this down and then text it....

THE CHILDREN AND I ARE STAYING AT HOME FOR CHRISTMAS. YOU CAN COME TO VISIT ON THE BETWEEN THE HOURS OF

am beginning to feel like my own worst enemy with the being reasonable and fair. It's getting me squat and perhaps even putting off the inevitable, I wish he would show his true colours and fuck right off already. If MIL wasn't here and I didn't do all the 'being helpful' crap I think he'd have disappeared months ago. I want better for my boys but he's not going to get any better is he? :(

I mean seriously, how can any parent threaten to cut off seeing their own babies, to manipulate their own mum into playing happy happy with the OW in her own home?? More to the point, I can't say anything - but how can his mum let him behave like that? I'd tell my son to stay the eff away then if he doesn't want to see his kids. They're not a weapon fgs.

so you don't trust him to look after them properly after these incidents.

Try to set aside his lording it over and taking the piss with your mil - sounds harsh, but that's her problem. The issues are that he cannot be trusted to take good care of the DC and is unwilling to collect them etc.

Still reckon best to change the arrangements and cease your travelling to MIL's. If he then stops seeing his DC, that's his decision, and sad, but not your fault.

I knew I could rely on you lot. I promise I will allow this to sink in, it's good to have it drilled home how simple the solution is. Time for a call to my solicitor I think to draft a letter.

Any suggestions about safeguarding the kids when he has them if it's not with MIL? I doubt a contact centre would be possible at this stage.

You have tried v v hard to help him maintain a relationship with ds1 and get to know ds2, for the boys' benefit. But as you've identified, it's not working for you, so cannot continue, and your ex will either step up or (more likely sadly) bugger off.

I'm with Cogito. Carry out your plan, and soon.

I would also discuss things directly with your MIL and cut out the ex for the time being.

He's putting you through this rigmarole just to yank your chain. He knows you're a nice, reasonable, caring person and I think he is using the children to control you, just because he can. He's got you driving, wasting your time, sitting in coffee shops, ie catering to him and his needs.

I suggest a me first attitude for a while. What would suit you? What do you want?

After you've considered that, consider what your children want, as opposed to what they ought to want, or what is good for them. Then MIL.

Perhaps you could come to some arrangement with MIL since she seems to truly love and care for your children? But she needs to get over this issue about wanting to make her son see his children. She can't make him do anything, but she can exhaust herself trying (and is, by the sound of it :( )

If your ex really wants/deserves a part in your children's lives, though, he needs to make an effort. So I think your plan is spot on.

By the way, don't worry about looking vindictive. No-one who cares about you will think that. And for those who don't care about you, it doesn't matter a jot what they think.

I should say SIL thinks I should send DS2 for much longer and refuse to have him back, burst their bubble by making them recognise the boys come as a two-part package and they can't just go to playparks with a bonny 2 year old, they have to figure out naps and feeding and deal with crying and everything else. I am freaking out that they will harm DS2 if I do that. I'm happy to be told if you think I'm BU on that point and should toughen up. I appear to need to toughen up a great deal?

Your sol could advise you on contact centre, but probably not likely to be possible. A friend whose ex has major alcohol problems and is v poor at supervison (older DC), with lots of evidence of DC possibly being in dangerous situations as a result, had legal advice that it was v unlikely that unsupervised contact for her ex would be taken away by a court. She hates it when her dc is with him, but , and actually the presence of his new gf (not the ow) helps in that there are two adults around.

In all likelihood, given what we know about your ex, he will not want to stump up money or effort to do stuff out and about, so will either collect the DC and take to MIL's himself, make her do pick-ups and drop-offs, or not bother coming.

MIL can always, always see the children. She is LOVELY and I have nothing but respect for her. Something her own DS sadly doesn't have.

We're going for lunch tomorrow so I'll talk to her about it all then. I would like to explain to her what is going to happen in advance, so she doesn't think it's because I'm unhappy about her looking after them or her house being the place they go.

I often see her at least once with the children in between the EOW stint she has with the DC and her S.

Dozer I suspect your assessment of what he would do is spot on. Bully MIL into doing more. Which is exactly what I don't want to happen - but I know she has to take responsibility for her own decisions, I can't stop her doing that if she decides to :(