Can abusers ever change?

[DaftMagpie]

I have a close friend sat with me, with his young son.

He's had a very tough time of it lately with his other half; emotional and financial abuse, and physical violence. She is also very narcassistic (doesn't recognise that she's ever in the wrong, blames others for her actions and seems to have a different perception of reality). She also has severe anger management issues.

I think he should never go back to her again ever again but he is still holding out hope that, with (alot) help she could be okay someday and maybe they could make it work as a family again. For the moment, they are both safe and away from her (and will be for some time).

So, please could you tell him from experience, professional opinons, any other views, can someone like this ever change?

(I have posted on this before but name-changed and am going to be very careful about going into too much information)

Perhaps, if she really wanted to - but she doesn't, does she? She's never wrong.

A friend split up with her abusive p. He's now (quickly) married and we can see his pattern of control and financial abuse starting with new wife, (she doesn't see it yet, she's still In Love with her White Knight) at the same time as he has escalated the abuse against my friend. He's never wrong, either.

DaftMagpie's friend, you can help your ds have a relationship with his mother, but I don't think it would be wise to try to be a family again.

Sorry.

People can sometimes change provided they a) accept they have a problem and b) get the right kind of help. However, if the abuser doesn't accept they have a problem, they are never going to seek that help to begin with. Meanwhile the victim - full of hope and wanting things to work - is treated as a soft touch and carries on being damaged physically, mentally and so forth.

He has done the right thing putting physical distance between them because I think some abusers work a kind of 'hypnosis' which is only effective when they are up close and personal with their victim. She will be reluctant to let go. Your friend will be feeling lots of doubts at the moment and is therefore still very vulnerable. The more time and distance he can maintain, the more he focuses on keeping his DS out of harms way, the less influence she will have. Give it a few months and he'll wonder why he stuck it for so long.

No, it's unlikely that she will ever change. She sounds like my DH's ex who had similar anger issues.

Your friend's priority has to be his DS and personal safety. He should stay away for good and think about getting counselling for both of them (him and DS). The ex will probably plead, beg and make promises to change but I'd guess she has already done this before in the past.

He needs to keep contact with her to an absolute minimum and only discuss arrangements for their child, nothing else. He should get legal advice from a solicitor, if he hasn't done so already. Many lawyers offer a free half hour initial consulation.

Deciding to leave is the most difficult step now he can start to look forward to a happier life without the abuse.

Well her bail conditions say that she mustn't contact him and they are effectively in hiding at the moment, so he's at least got some time to get his thoughts straight. I think you're right about the doubt setting in though.

And yes, she's definitely done all of the pleading, promising etc. in the past, and then gone back on it all once he's returned to her. This time he's taken DS, effectively on the orders of social services, and I hope they stay away for good.

Thanks for your replies, he's just sat down and read through them all, and is now deep in thought (and I feel like I've thrown a bucket full of cold water over his otherwise cheery day).

Statistically she is unlikely to change although obviously we all hold out hope that some may.

My own experience would suggest that abuse may become more subtle and wrapped up in Psychology speak and it is easy to be drawn in once again...distance and detachment are the best way to preserve oneself and the DC.

Has he read much about domestic abuse?

The Men's Advice Line 0808 801 0327

domestic violence affecting men from the NHS in London

If it's serious enough for there to be bail conditions and SS involvement then he needs to drop any idea of getting back with her right now.

The only type of abuse situation which offers a real possibility of change is when the abuser is one of those chaotically aggressive people who has learned violence as a response to every difficult situation: frequent arrests for fighting, can't hold down a job because s/he loses control and attacks colleagues or smashes up the workplace, etc. People like this can sometimes learn to control their violence.

Domestic abusers who are only cruel to their partner/child are already under control; they just think they are entitled to abuse family members, and that's not a viewpoint that will ever shift.

Good luck, OP's friend. You can make a good future for yourself and DC away from this fucked up, horrible person. Make sure all contact between her and DC is supervised by a third party and have no direct contact with her yourself.

Thanks for the link fool, I think you and Cognito posted on the threads I started previously (but have since asked to be deleted as they had just a bit too much linkable info, and tbh I'm really rather tense about her having any clue to where they might be staying and turning up).

He's been reading up mostly on stuff about personality disorders (mainly narscasism) but I'll point him to that link and to some of the really good info I found on Mankind & Mens Advice Line. He also called Mens Advice Line a couple of weeks ago (before things went truly pear shaped), I'll suggest he gives them another call, might help with how to plan his future.

I think he's just a bit reluctant to amdit it might all be over for good as he says he still loves her (as I guess many people in his position do), and so things like calling to get the child benefit transferred over, and blocking her on facebook (which she barely ever uses, thankfully) are just a bit final. He's lived on hope for a really, really long time, I guess that's hard to break.

And Solid, you're bang on about entitlement, she has that in spades about everything.

Ah yes...like an addiction, it's hard to admit that it needs to stop. Abusers target people well, those who will go the extra 100 miles to make things work rather than run away screaming when we should.

I have found the less I have to do with abusive ex the clearer my view of his behaviour and him is. I am sure this is common...detach and we see what is really happening.

This is a good website and it has some useful links too www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/male_victims_of_domestic_violence.html

This is also a useful resource: Men's Aid - 0871 223 9986
Based in Milton Keynes. A registered charity providing advice on what to do if you are in an abusive relationship. The helpline provides someone to talk to in the strictest of confidence, helpful and constructive advice, and information on other useful contacts specific to your individual needs.

If I could give your friend any advice I would say "stop thinking about her, why she does it, why she thinks it's ok, what you did (nothing) to provoke it, how you could make it better (you can't); use your energy to plan, build and embrace an abuse free life for you and your child. The grief will come...and it will fade, the regret will come....and you will survive, the anger will well up.... but it will give you energy to do what you must, and eventually you will find that you have a good life, a loving, peaceful, kind life and you won't miss her, not one bit, no not at all.

best wishes

Thank you fool, that's very heartfelt advice.

He's moved on to other friends now, though I'll see him again soon, but I'll forward the link to this thread and a couple of others I remember seeing. I think he's struggling a little with what's 'normal' in a relationship (hitting obviously isn't, I think he kows this for definite) but there was a thread not long ago on how do people argue, something he asked me about the other day.

He seems to have lost his confidence in his own judgement and ability to just get on with things, I hope you're right that with a bit of time away from her constantly restricting what he does and slamming down his plans, he'll get a bit of perspective back on everything.

He needs to keep away from her and look after himself. Like someone else. counselling for him, and for his DS as well. It's not up to him to try and fix her, she is abusive and he can't make her better. I don't mean to fear monger, but if SS are telling him that he needs to keep away from her then he really needs to do that, because they will have to take action if he brings his son back into a violent, toxic environment with this woman.

"He seems to have lost his confidence in his own judgement and ability to just get on with things"

Sadly, that's totally normal for abuse victims. Abusers' stock in trade is to crush the self-esteem and spirit out of their victims, make them dependent, unsure and therefore easy to control. It's a kind of one-man (or in this case woman) 'Stockholm Syndrome' where, largely for reasons of self-preservation, the prisoner identifies with the jailer and deludes themselves that there is a real human relationship going on.

It does improve with time. Confidence will come from making his own decisions & controlling his own life rather than worrying if he's doing the right thing. He'll also get confidence from successfully caring for his DS. It's tough being a single parent but there's nothing like looking at your DC happy, confident and secure and thinking 'I did that'. Eventually, one day, he'll realise he hasn't thought about her for a few days... and it'll come as a surprise.

It's sad how we all hold out hope. I have been through councelling even now I wonder 'what if', I have heard of people changing through having lots of counselling but if I am honest I haven't seen any signs of this.

Some people even blame themselves like me but my abuser is now with someone else, and abusing her, even thought he tells me he would never do it again, to me, I guess these people can change but I am thinking it involves a lot of work!

I hope you get some help, it's good he has a friend like you.

I wonder if this link would help your friend? It can be hard to understand the whirl of emotions, but I think this pinpoints some of the feelings people in abusive relationships feel when trying to sever the connection with the abuser:
victimsofpsychopaths.wordpress.com/traumatic-bonding/
Hope it helps

I think you're right it is a bit like Stockholm Syndrome, he was saying the other day how it's such a shame as she's a really loving mother to their DS and that they do love each other - I did point out that he can't think like that, he has to see that on balance it's really, really not the best place for either of them.

I think too, he is paying attention to SS telling him if he takes their DS to see her, they'll step in and remove him. I don't think he'll do anything rash, it's just all alot to take on and process and there are alot of conflicting emotions and thoughts going through his head.

He's been trying to figure out too whether something in particular sparked all this or when it all started (again wrongly blaming himself I think), but I did point out to him that her ex left her for just the same reasons 15 years ago (he and she have ben together about 6 years), so she's been like that for at least that length of time.

Has your friend ANY idea of how seriously fucked up this woman has to be for SS to tell him that if she has contact with her son, they will remove him.

Does he realise how serious that is?

2 women a week are killed by their partners, 2 men a month are killed by theirs.

It is as grim as it gets for him now, and I deeply sympathise, having been a DV victim myself.

Please tell him that it will get better, and really soon, that he will grow, heal, learn and get back to the wonderful, strong, warm funny person he was before her.

This time next year, if he puts time and effort into himself, his life will have transformed completely for thew better. Much sooner than this he will wonder what on earth he was doing with her.

He needsa to know that none of this was his fault, that he didn't cause any of this and that she will do it again, and again and again. She won't change ever, she will only get worse. She will end up in prison, possibly for murder, but not his, and not his DC, as long as he keeps himself and his son away from this abusive monster.

Tell him he's welcome here anytime, that we're all here to help him, but that Mankind and other support groups will be vital to him in addition to this.

He has nothing to be ashamed of, he didn't do anything wrong, he's saving his child, that's about as heroic as it can possibly be.

Tell him good luck from us, and never forget that he can lean on us, if it's helpful.

And thank you for that link ATouchOfStuffing, it makes for chilling reading. I think the physical violence is definitely very real for him, and I'm so thankful that he's able to talk to people openly about it, but I think emotionally he is shell shocked by it, and has lost his measure over time of what is normal.

I am also thankful though that he's not got to the stage (I think) of being 'overwhelmed by terror', from what I can tell he was still able to act rationally and get himself out of there when he saw the opportunity (i.e. jumping out of a bedroom window and running till he got help).

HisstletoeAndWhine, I've had nightmares about just that. And told him very seriously to hide the knives.

Those statistics are very scary.

It is scary. I sometimes (would not recommend this) regret counselling I have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder now and can be found hiding on the floor in the flash or a door-bell ring, those books scared me....

The link is also very useful I have read it before and it is spot on. Hope he gets some help!

he's safe now. he just has to stay that way.

Yep, he's safe. And he has alot of long standing friends and close family he can call on if they need a bolthole where she can't track them down.

And he has alot of support on the looking-after-the-baby front - I think the sudden prospect of being a single parent has added onto the emotional upheaval of it all, on top of the violent madwoman side of things, but he's already far more competent than he realises.

My DH said that if he can do a day as a single dad then he can do a week, and if he can do a week then he can do a month, and if he can do a month then he can do a lifetime. I guess that applies to living without his girlfriend in his life too.

NotWankinginaWinterWonderland, are you alright? Jumping when the doorbell goes sounds tough going, are you getting the support you need?

Some studies put the rate of successful change at as little as 5%. Even the most successful perpetrator programmes fail most of their attendees. It's simply a too-ingrained behaviour. As long as the abuser is able to exercise control, it's a strategy that works very well. It takes a lot of strength to stand up to an abuser, so there's no incentive to change.

What SGB says is spot on. If external agencies are involved, he has to suspend all contact immediately and completely.

When people first leave an abuser they are very vulnerable to going back, but this does lift after some time. Three months seems to be a significant mark, but it can take years to see through the fog completely. He may benefit from something like the freedom programme. And while Lundy Bancroft's book is aimed at women, it would hold a lot of relevance for your friend and help him to understand the relationship better.

Hope he does ok and has a decent Christmas.