Can abusers ever change?

[DaftMagpie]

I have a close friend sat with me, with his young son.

He's had a very tough time of it lately with his other half; emotional and financial abuse, and physical violence. She is also very narcassistic (doesn't recognise that she's ever in the wrong, blames others for her actions and seems to have a different perception of reality). She also has severe anger management issues.

I think he should never go back to her again ever again but he is still holding out hope that, with (alot) help she could be okay someday and maybe they could make it work as a family again. For the moment, they are both safe and away from her (and will be for some time).

So, please could you tell him from experience, professional opinons, any other views, can someone like this ever change?

(I have posted on this before but name-changed and am going to be very careful about going into too much information)

[DaftMagpie]

Hello, I just thought I'd let you know he got custody yesterday! He's fully stepped up as a Dad and is putting his foot well and truly down over her access, once a week supervised at a contact centre, and that won't be till after her assault trials. Just wanted to say thanks for the support over the months. It's not over yet but definitely going in the right direction.

[DaftMagpie]

Hisslotoe, I've just looked up the Respect site, I know my mate called the Men's Advice Line part of it (for male victims) a few weeks back and found it really helpful - I'll suggest he calls it again just to chat through where he's currently at and how to cope with it all now. And I'll definitely suggest again that he talks to the GP about counselling.

I think you're right too about reporting and perceptions of male victims, there are some links to men's experiences on the Mankind website, and one that struck me was from someone going into a police station covered in his own blood and asking for help but being told to just go home and sort himself out. My mate was 'lucky' enough that his gf had history so he was taken seriously straight away.

I think too there are different pressures on male victims. I know women sometimes stay in bad relationships for a long time too, but I think he stayed with it all for so long because he felt he should be the strong one to help his mixed up girlfriend, because he didn't want to / was scared to get her in trouble with the authorities, because (up till the incident last week) he could physically take it, and because he wanted to know his DS was ok (and so kept going back to her) but was reluctant/scared/not confident enough to take him away from his primary carer. Don't know how common that is.

[DaftMagpie]

That's another really good article, including a very good bit on advice for Family and Friends about two thirds of the way down. Alot of things resonating there.

[DaftMagpie]

Snorbs, I've just had the chance to read through that link and like ATouchOfStuffing says, it's spot on. I'm not sure she ticks every one of the boxes, but even from what I know about, she ticks an awful lot of them.

She definitely fits the Phyiscal Abuser category, though I really don't know if she's full on Psychotic as described there - thoough it has crossed my mind that she'd use the 'I'll kill myself if you don't come back/ if I can't see DS'.

The Follow-Up Protection is good, though I'd go so far to say he should only have contact through SS or his solicitor.

Scary reading. Off to read The Stockholm Syndrome next.

[Snorbs]

Hisstletoe, doesn't the National Domestic Violence Helpline receive finding from both the home office and local government?

[HisstletoeAndWhine]

The Police get a call about DV every second of the day.

2 women a week are killed by their partners. 1 in 4 women report abuse in their relationships during their life times.

2 men a month are killed by their partners. 1 in 8 report abuse.

I'm sure all the reporting figures are higher, and I bet a lot of men don't report it. On some levels I think men have less support open to them than women do.

Not that I'd wish abuse on anyone, it's a groundhog's day in hell, but I wonder if the figures were reversed if men were being battered, abused, and the calls were all coming in about women attacking their boyfs, the fathers of their DC, if there'd be the same disparity in perpetrator/victim funding.

Woman's Aid is a charity, it relies on donations.

RESPECT, the hotline for male perps to supposedly get help to stop is funded by the Govt.

Funny how you can ALWAYS get through to RESPECT, their lines are never busy...

We recommended that victims call RESPECT as they are experts in helping advise how to deal with twattish behaviours. :)

[DaftMagpie]

That's worrying too that they'd put someone like that forward as a success story, and as a mentor too.

[DaftMagpie]

Nothing says it like a silence, I wonder if he got that there was not a single person who agreed with him.

[HisstletoeAndWhine]

I was aware the rest of the auditorium was watching my expressions... So had to remain as placid as poss. I wanted to tackle him, really I did, but it wasn't my conference, and victims aren't allowed to get angry, it just shows how me might have goaded these poor troubled twats souls with "anger management ishoos", "stress" or some kind of excuse for why they batter their partners.

The reaction of the audience was good enough for me.

[ATouchOfStuffing]

Shame you weren't following up after his speech - you could have used him as an example ;)

[HisstletoeAndWhine]

I recently spoke at a conference as a former victim of DV.

In the afternoon a former perpetrator spoke.

What a waste of space. Total denial, minimisation and blaming of his ex.

And this was a supposed spokes man, a mentor! The best they had to show?!!

I have never been more convinced in my life that these vile creatures are total write offs, that they won't take responsibility for anything. I know there are posters here who reckon their Partners are 'cured'. But I'm guessing they are managing abuse. I'd never, ever trust a former abusive partner, and on some level, the threat would always be there. They would only have to get that 'edge' and the victim would be right back there. It's logical.

The Perp programme I saw was hugely funded and a total waste of money. They ought to put the money into savoing and helping victims, providing them with funds to protect themselves in court, to sub them for new places to live. Victims ARE worth investing in, perps? No. The woman who worked for the Perp Prog too was totally on the wrong side of all this, she victim blamed and was totally illinformed.

Perhaps that's why they got not one single solitary clap, but I got spontaneous applause :)

[ATouchOfStuffing]

Wow Snorbs that link is spot on, sadly.

[Snorbs]

This is an excellent and succinct overview of abusive behaviours to watch out for. I found it eye-opening when I compared it to what my ex did.

I'd also recommend that he contacts his GP to see if he can get counselling. I found it immensely helpful.

[MistletoeAndTomHardyPlease]

Yes. But in this situation he should walk away.

[DaftMagpie]

I think the enforced separation, i.e. she's not currently able to get her claws back into him because of her bail conditions, and she doesn't know where they are, means he's got the time to think and follow the rational part of his head now without fear of being bullied back again. And I pretty sure he won't contact her, he recognises the seriousness of it all and what he's been told by SS. It's the long term (months, years) that he's a bit lost about.

I'll have a look for that Lundy Bancroft book, I've seen it mentioned on threads before, he's really quite receptive to talking about and reading round the whole subject, especially now his eyes are well and truly open. I've found him my Supernanny and MN Toddlers books too, which will hopefully give him some confidence that he's already doing great with his DS.

I think they're likely to have quite a busy Christmas, lots of kind people and nice distractions, which I should think will help. Though alongside this I think he's struggling a bit with people being glad that they're out of it, when for him it's anything but a happy ending. I'll be popping over in a few days so will see if I can get him out for a beer and a chat. It'll be good to see him again.

And yes CogitO, I go for psychotic too. I've used unhinged, nuts and dangerous to describe her, but psychotic definitely fits with the attack on him the other day.

[CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts]

"He's been trying to figure out too whether something in particular sparked all this "

This is common as well. Looking for reasons is unfortunately not all that healthy mostly because many abuse victims see it as their responsibility to address those reasons. 'If only I'd been a better partner they wouldn't be so angry '... and so on

The only reason he needs to know is that she chose to behave this way of her own volition. She could have made a different choice at any stage. It's not his doing, it's nothing he could have prevented or influenced and nothing he can retrospectively fix. Jumped a window, eh? She must be psychotic.

[Dahlen]

Some studies put the rate of successful change at as little as 5%. Even the most successful perpetrator programmes fail most of their attendees. It's simply a too-ingrained behaviour. As long as the abuser is able to exercise control, it's a strategy that works very well. It takes a lot of strength to stand up to an abuser, so there's no incentive to change.

What SGB says is spot on. If external agencies are involved, he has to suspend all contact immediately and completely.

When people first leave an abuser they are very vulnerable to going back, but this does lift after some time. Three months seems to be a significant mark, but it can take years to see through the fog completely. He may benefit from something like the freedom programme. And while Lundy Bancroft's book is aimed at women, it would hold a lot of relevance for your friend and help him to understand the relationship better.

Hope he does ok and has a decent Christmas.

[DaftMagpie]

Yep, he's safe. And he has alot of long standing friends and close family he can call on if they need a bolthole where she can't track them down.

And he has alot of support on the looking-after-the-baby front - I think the sudden prospect of being a single parent has added onto the emotional upheaval of it all, on top of the violent madwoman side of things, but he's already far more competent than he realises.

My DH said that if he can do a day as a single dad then he can do a week, and if he can do a week then he can do a month, and if he can do a month then he can do a lifetime. I guess that applies to living without his girlfriend in his life too.

NotWankinginaWinterWonderland, are you alright? Jumping when the doorbell goes sounds tough going, are you getting the support you need?

[HisstletoeAndWhine]

he's safe now. he just has to stay that way.

[NotWankinginaWinterWonderland]

It is scary. I sometimes (would not recommend this) regret counselling I have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder now and can be found hiding on the floor in the flash or a door-bell ring, those books scared me....

The link is also very useful I have read it before and it is spot on. Hope he gets some help!

[DaftMagpie]

HisstletoeAndWhine, I've had nightmares about just that. And told him very seriously to hide the knives.

Those statistics are very scary.

[DaftMagpie]

And thank you for that link ATouchOfStuffing, it makes for chilling reading. I think the physical violence is definitely very real for him, and I'm so thankful that he's able to talk to people openly about it, but I think emotionally he is shell shocked by it, and has lost his measure over time of what is normal.

I am also thankful though that he's not got to the stage (I think) of being 'overwhelmed by terror', from what I can tell he was still able to act rationally and get himself out of there when he saw the opportunity (i.e. jumping out of a bedroom window and running till he got help).

[HisstletoeAndWhine]

Has your friend ANY idea of how seriously fucked up this woman has to be for SS to tell him that if she has contact with her son, they will remove him.

Does he realise how serious that is?

2 women a week are killed by their partners, 2 men a month are killed by theirs.

It is as grim as it gets for him now, and I deeply sympathise, having been a DV victim myself.

Please tell him that it will get better, and really soon, that he will grow, heal, learn and get back to the wonderful, strong, warm funny person he was before her.

This time next year, if he puts time and effort into himself, his life will have transformed completely for thew better. Much sooner than this he will wonder what on earth he was doing with her.

He needsa to know that none of this was his fault, that he didn't cause any of this and that she will do it again, and again and again. She won't change ever, she will only get worse. She will end up in prison, possibly for murder, but not his, and not his DC, as long as he keeps himself and his son away from this abusive monster.

Tell him he's welcome here anytime, that we're all here to help him, but that Mankind and other support groups will be vital to him in addition to this.

He has nothing to be ashamed of, he didn't do anything wrong, he's saving his child, that's about as heroic as it can possibly be.

Tell him good luck from us, and never forget that he can lean on us, if it's helpful.

[DaftMagpie]

He's been trying to figure out too whether something in particular sparked all this or when it all started (again wrongly blaming himself I think), but I did point out to him that her ex left her for just the same reasons 15 years ago (he and she have ben together about 6 years), so she's been like that for at least that length of time.

[DaftMagpie]

I think you're right it is a bit like Stockholm Syndrome, he was saying the other day how it's such a shame as she's a really loving mother to their DS and that they do love each other - I did point out that he can't think like that, he has to see that on balance it's really, really not the best place for either of them.

I think too, he is paying attention to SS telling him if he takes their DS to see her, they'll step in and remove him. I don't think he'll do anything rash, it's just all alot to take on and process and there are alot of conflicting emotions and thoughts going through his head.