How do you know for sure that you should leave?

[Apty]

Relationships are full of good and bad. What do you do when you are confused about the balance and how bad it really is?

My instincts tell me to leave sometimes, and then at other times that seems like the worst thing to do.

Do you reach a point when you know?

Hi Bushy. I started getting support from these threads when I realised I'd lost respect for my DH too - there may still be a way back, or there may not, but it's safe to explore either way here.

Pulled, I completely see where you're at - as Tiredof said, these Hs of ours have woken up far too late to the reality of what we've been telling them.... That our relationships are failing and that something needs to be done about it.... It is truly horrible to realise that there is no spark, and to feel absolutely nothing towards him so much of the time.

Cannot it sounds like you have made some progress - I guess only time will tell if it is the beginning of the end, or the start of a better relationship - either way, I hope you do find the right way forward for you.

My DH isn't as "bad" as some others, but I just can't forgive him for being so damn lazy about our relationship. He's pulling out all the stops now, but I'm so distant from him, and so judgemental of him now - he says he feels like he's being assessed at the moment and in a way he's right, I can hear myself saying "oh good effort there, but where was that thoughtfulness/helpfulness/gumption/effort in the last 1/2/5 years?" And he was going to let it rumble on "until the kids had left home" - at least another 7 years!!

It is so tiring, thinking about this over and over. I can hear the exhaustion in so many of your posts on this thread too - we are utterly drained by this state of limbo. I have put so many other aspects of life on hold (trivial stuff, like reading books for book group, and huge stuff like spending proper quality time with both DCs every day) and today I'm feeling that I really need to move on. Still no spark, and still no desire to try again.... I think it's time to call it. And hang the trivial consequences (what other people will think, etc.). I'm so sad tonight, but so fed up of thinking about me! And us. I want to get back to thinking about my kids, and all the other good things in life.

Hugs to you all x

I can hear the exhaustion in so many of your posts on this thread too - we are utterly drained by this state of limbo. I have put so many other aspects of life on hold (trivial stuff, like reading books for book group, and huge stuff like spending proper quality time with both DCs every day)...I'm so sad tonight, but so fed up of thinking about me! And us. I want to get back to thinking about my kids, and all the other good things in life.

God do I get this. I feel like I live so unproductively. I get so little done. Like everything is on hold and I am in a state of torpor. I want to go out and be part of the world again, to get up in the morning and want to go out and do things. I spend so much time sitting around agonising, worrying, feeling resented by dh. It's a bit like depression but it's not depression, it's just feeling unable to engage with the normal world and feeling guilty and exhausted.

My world has shrunk to a little bubble of misery and I feel like the real, actual world is out there, full of opportunities and experiences I don't take.

I'm out of here soon. I'm scared as hell but I also can't wait to see what it's like.

Hugs to you too, Thistle.

Omg, I could have written you last post thistle word for word. I find myself thinking the same of my H 'you did well, but why haven't you bothered in x years' or 'you've done such and such, but you still haven't even thought to do x'. Its awful. I get what you say about realising you actually don't feel anything towards them anymore, to me it's more painful that hating them. There will be odd moments when we have a laugh together but now I feel as if I'm laughing with a friend, that spark of 'more' has gone. There is no passion or affection anymore, we never properly kiss, at most its just a quick peck, he says I love you all the time, but tbh I thinks its to often and has lost any real meaning.

This limbo is awful, and tonight I'm feeling very down and sad to. I feel like crying a lot recently, i can't imagine myself ending it, but can imagine the other side and the relief. I can't continue like this though, I'm so tiered and drained by it all, and now that my H has decided to try, his efforts are actually making me feel suffocated now. I see people in love, like my brother and soon to be sister in law, who are bust planning their wedding and it makes me feel so sad, sad I don't have a relationship happy like that where we love spending time together, where we work as a team. To sum it up, I feel really shitty right now.

It's a bit like depression but it's not depression, it's just feeling unable to engage with the normal world and feeling guilty and exhausted.

I agree Tiredof - I have wondered if I'm depressed (I do have history of PND and stress) - but I have so much more clarity about my life nowadays than I did in my depressive phases. I do think it's about guilt, about wanting to make a choice that you know is not what society expects (or what we ourselves have been brought up to believe is right), and ultimately about feeling okay about saying "this is not good enough for me ".

Pulled - I have been experiencing the suffocating effects too - and I think it drives you away even more quickly. Have you asked your DH to give you some space (emotional, I mean)? I think it's difficult to really get to grips with how you feel while they are trying so hard to be super-husband, full of I-love-yous and promises. It's just added pressure that you don't need right now.

Pulled I hear you and understand the pain. Hearing love songs on the radio and seeing happy couples really breaks my heart too. One of my friends had a horrible divorce, her dh left her for an OW. She's been with her partner for seven years and they are so happy. They still hold hands, flirt, obviously and conspicuously love each other without being at all 'icky' about it. They just came back from a blowout trip in an exciting city and he proposed. I'm happy for them, but the contrast with my own situation is so painful.

At home we are civil, mostly, but so distant. The idea of any warmth, affection, intimacy is unthinkable. But dh would be prepared to carry on like this indefinitely. His mantra: 'I just don't want us to split up'. If he had ever put a fraction of the energy and love into his relationship with me that he has put into his relationship with the children, we would probably have been OK.

Instead, he was grumpy and critical. Made me feel like the worst person in the world. I couldn't understand why I was the person he was supposed to love the most, yet he seemed to judge me by completely different standards to the ones he had for everyone else. Everyone else was to be treated with respect, courtesy and generosity, while I could do nothing right. If we had guests, ever, he would be in a foul mood while I did all the cooking. He was always stressed that I wouldn't have the food ready on time (I'm an excellent cook and have never failed to pull it off). If we went to see people for lunch and the traffic was bad, and we might be late, it was my fault because I wasn't ready in time to leave with half an hour to spare.

He would get home to a beautiful, welcoming house, with a delicious dinner in the oven and notice the one thing I hadn't done. He would do things like silently restack the dishwasher. I have been conditioned into anxiety about what he thinks about me and everything I do. This evening we had dinner and I felt the familiar flashes of anxiety that I might have taken too many peas, or too much custard with my pudding. Earlier I was over at my new house with dd and got increasingly anxious as time went on that he would be annoyed that we'd been away for too long.

I don't think he realises he makes me feel like this. He's conditioned me with his years of emotional abuse. Even problems in our sex life were my fault. I lost desire for him because I felt so unloved, so I started rejecting him. He got occasional ED and this was all my fault. I always had to initiate it because he lost confidence. Everything is always my fault.

Now he resents that I am 'taking' half of what we own. He told me last night that he had earned all our property. Never mind that I was at home raising and caring for our children. I also have to take all the responsibility for the failure of our marriage because it is 'what I want'. He is the injured party and I am a wicked witch. He knew I was suicidal before I initiated this, I had told him I wanted to separate for years, but he put every single bit of emotional blackmail on me from crying to telling me how it would destroy the kids.

My relationship with dds has been damaged by all this. Not just because he has been able to focus on them better than I have, because he hasn't been engulfed in misery, but because I have cut myself off from the family unit to get away from him.

I am desperate to be away, to be myself. I have wasted years and I think it would have been better for the kids if I had done this when they were younger.

Dh's view of all this is so twisted. I feel like he hates me, but despite this, he would still keep me if he could. It's sick, really. I don't know if it's all about the kids, or just him wanting respectability and financial security, both of which we are going to lose.

Sorry, I didn't mean to rant but to sympathise. You are not alone, Pulled. This is all horrible, but it cannot last forever, can it? People come out the other side and live again. I hope we both will, and soon.

Cross posted with you, Thistle, with my long, sad post. I've just read what I wrote and it makes me feel so foolish for all the thoughts I've had recently, about suggesting he comes with me and the dd to my new house. It would be a disaster for me, like being let out of prison and trying to break back in. I know I would never get away if I took him back and I would confuse and mess up my kids even more than I am already.

I might end up under a train. I had a lonely night on the platform at my local station a couple of months ago. I came so, so close to walking out on to the line and jumping in front of the fast train that goes whistling through. He knows all this but he still hates me and wants to keep me at the same time.

At least I know I am leaving soon. Not long now.

Stay strong people.

Same here. I think we are both guilty of emotionally abusive behaviour but since our beautiful second baby has come along it had been pretty bad between us, not helped by him sleeping with ds1.
We are now both I think wondering what to do. We sway from politeness to hideous rows for the last few months. There has always been a lot of turmoil in our relationship but previously it led to sparky making up, that has not happened this time, we have barely touched for ten days.
I hate this limbo. I want commitment and effort to make it work or a quick end. This protracted should we shouldn't we is death by a thousand cuts.
I wish I knew if he wanted to stay, if he still loves me.
I don't want to warp the kids as he put it with arguments and tears. But they will see through a charade.
Glesga your regret makes me want to think twice but it takes two. I don't know if this is the hardship of young children or if this is us.
I do know every night he sleeps soundly and I weep and wake.
Not good.

It's awful isn't it tiered. I get so used to how our relationship is that I think it's normal, that this distance happens naturally with time, but then I see a happy couple and am painfully reminded that that's not true. I think H actually thinks it's normal, he's forever telling me when I talk about it 'but it's normal, everyone gets like this', he to like your H would stay with me no matter what, as long as we don't split up, it's fine. He has said he is happy living like this.

I get that awful anxiety over what he thinks as well, though I have started trying to reason with myself when this happens. One thing I do is scramble to stop DD doing anything he may not like when I hear him coming home, through, getting up in the morning etc.

Another thing is that he worries so much about money, admirably we have debts that we are paying off, but due to this he does not enjoy the hear and now, all he does is plan for the future and says stuff like 'I can't wait for you to graduate, then our life can start' and I think but this is part of our lives, its a stage and all he does is wish life away. He's never happy with what we've got. We went to a cafe for lunch yesterday as we were out and DD was hungry and we spent £6 on lunch for all 3 of us. He took DD to the table while I paid, when I got to the table I was met with him asking how much it cost, when i told him he responds that bloody hell, that's a lot of money

I honestly wish that I could wave a wand and have us just be friends. I don't hate him, I don't want to hurt him and I still care for him, but not as a partner. I think that's the hard part, if I disliked him or didn't care then I wouldn't feel so guilty, but I feel awful for wanting to leave as I know how much it will hurt him. Though when I've mentioned to him before that I think I may want to leave, but don't want to hurt him he's said well if your not happy then you shouldn't stay with me, there's no point staying in a relationship your not happy in, so do what you need to... So will he really care if I leave? I wish he'd leave, as I don't want to be the evil bitch that ends it. How do I tell him I'm leaving and then have to see him everyday until I move out, how do I deal with the guilt and the sadness. I wish I could look into the future and see that it'll make us both happier...

Oh, Pulled. I am so sorry. I could have written your last post, and the one before.

When you wrote this:

I find myself thinking the same of my H 'you did well, but why haven't you bothered in x years'

The trouble is, if someone tries to change when it's too late, it's almost worse than if they never did it at all. Because you feel you 'owe it to them' to be grateful and try to make the marriage work and you feel awful about still wanting out. And you find it hard to be nice back and you become the grumpy one, even though before this man drained the life out of you, you were cheery and positive. You resent that it had to get so, so bad before they were prepared to try and be a bit nicer. You think, if you were capable of changing, why the fuck didn't you do it before, when it would have counted?

Another thing is that he worries so much about money, admirably we have debts that we are paying off, but due to this he does not enjoy the hear and now

I really get this too. The backdrop of anxiety about money means life becomes joyless. And we are not poor, we don't have genuine, can't pay the bills, money worries - well not at the moment. It spoils holidays even, the one time when you should say 'fuck it' and be prepared to just accept that spending money is part of having a good time. My dd commented on it yesterday, and guess what? She blames herself :( She said that she hates going to the supermarket with him and that after he has spent money he gets in a bad mood. She said it's her fault for asking for things (and I'm talking about asking for posh yogurts, not iPods). It's so grim.

I am also a student, Pulled. He accused me of doing something that made me dependent on him, during a reproachful conversation the other night when he was saying I was taking half of everything he had earned. Of course another way to look at it is that I have done the opposite - that my degree is an investment in my career which will actually make me dependent on him for less time than if I had remained a sahm. He was very keen for me to stay at home when they were small.

I spent nearly all yesterday on MN. I feel guilty about that. I'm going to try and get some stuff done today. Keep posting though, people. One thing about living in marriages like this is that they make you feel like you are going mad. Thistle you were right when you said that there is nothing wrong with saying it's just not working for you, that it is taking all the enjoyment out of your life.

When my unhappiness all came out and the kids found out, my elder dd said immediately that 'everyone deserves to be happy, Mum, including you'. She was right.

That's exactly it tiered I feel so guilty and like I owe it to him now he's trying, and I feel like the biggest shit ever for still wanting to leave. I get the same for H about money, if I have to buy DD a coat, or the next size clothes he makes such a fuss over it, all with the 'but if you need to then do' thrown in at the end so he can say he's being reasonable. He got all weird when I got a costa coffee and sandwich for lunch one day as opposed to my usual supermarket lunch as it was a few quid more. He asked me why I did that, I said I fancied a small treat and he said well tomorrow you'll get your normal lunch then. He doesn't realise what it's like, as to him it makes him feel better When I go shopping I can;t win, if I buy the cheap stuff for him he doesn't like it/complains about eating it, but if I buy the expensive stuff he likes, then I get him asking why the shopping cost so much, how can we reduce the amount etc.

The uni thing, H finished his course first, as I changed course and then got pregnant. However all he does is bang on about when I graduate, how we'll have more money, how we can start 'earning'. I just want to enjoy the here and now. I feel that H counts success by how much money he/we have, I count it by happy days, time spent with people. Oh and I meant admittedly we have debts, not admirably.

Another thing that drives me crazy is that in the evenings when I have put DD to bed, I would love to get on a clean the house/do the housework and then sit down all relaxed afterwards. I can't do this though as, as soon as DD is in bed H wants to play on the computer (with me) or watch tv, whatever it is it has to be together to keep H happy. If I want to clean he huffs and puffs and keeps saying hurry up, I want to play. It's crazy.

I feel like I have to give it time atm, so that I can say to H that he's tried, but nothings better so I'm leaving. But then of course he will think things are better, as for him everything is fine. He doesn't have to cook, clean or do childcare, the only thing that is missing is affection, but he doesn't seem to care. I really need student finance to come through so I can see what money I have to budget with to move out.

I get moment where I sit and think 'omg am I really doing this'. Usually after we have had a good night. He can be a good man, he would never cheat, he works hard, but I don't think we are right for each other anymore, this would be so much easier if he was a nasty fucker. I have a part time job, but it's for my sister in law, so I doubt that will continue after we separate! Which is a right pain, as if I could rely on that job I would def have enough money to leave.

Uni starts tomorrow, so I'm going to try and concentrate on that today. DD is napping now and H is busy, so I'm going to go and get some housework done. Thank you all for the support, it is helping me keep focused and realise I'm not insane.

Tired I've only just read your post from last night. You sounded so down :(. I'm glad to see you posting again today though. And it sounds like your elder daughter is a star - very tuned in to you and what is going on, which will make the coming weeks and months better for you all. You're nearly at the point where your new life can begin - stick in, it will be worth it, I'm sure.

Pulled I can match you on the feeling like the biggest shit front - I know he will be devastated and most people around us will have had absolutely no idea that we have been struggling through counselling etc. My DH also counts success in terms of money, and actually is gobsmacked that I would consider leaving because I will certainly be less well off. In fact, I think he is still hoping it will all just blow over and it will all turn out to have just me having a wee mid life crisis and being a bit silly.

I can't imagine wanting to stay with someone who has so clearly said they want to leave, but it does seem that men (generally speaking, of course) have pretty thick skins when it comes to this. Like you say if they can still come home to a clean and fed family, many of them seem quite content to live without joy or affection.

Ugh, every time I sit down to give you all some support, I start ranting about my situation instead. I'm so sorry! Really starting to bore myself now....

Take care of you all, and stay strong.

it sounds like your elder daughter is a star - very tuned in to you and what is going on, which will make the coming weeks and months better for you all

Well that was 7 months ago. Fast forward to now and we have all still been living under the same roof since the decision was taken. I think it's put all of us under a lot of strain. She is now very distant from me. Won't talk, wants dh all the time. She has just started at a new school. I feel what I am doing the situation is totally screwing her up but it's hard to know how much is hormones etc. She's 12 and has gone from being sunny and kind to sullen and snappy.

She told me today that she doesn't want to move with me. She wants to stay in the family home for now, with dh. She doesn't want to move until half term at the earliest. I get this, when she's just started at a new school, but it's very painful. What is also painful is that I can see she is hurting and want to make it better but she doesn't want me, and sees me as the villain.

Also had a conversation with dh today about finding him somewhere to buy. There is nothing suitable for him at his price range right now, and our sale is commencing. His business is failing and he can't pay himself this month. I have come so close today to telling him he should come and live with me and we should try again.

But I don't want to do that just out of guilt and financial worries because living with him is so damaging to me. It's not selfish to want not to be terribly unhappy is it?

I can't imagine wanting to stay with someone who has so clearly said they want to leave

I don't get this either and I've said it to dh.

Feeling low again :( Sorry. You say you come on here and just rant about your own situation but I am far worse. Sorry everyone.

It's not selfish to want not to be terribly unhappy is it? No, it is not selfish. I can see that your DD might not want any further changes at the moment, and she's probably resisting change rather than resisting or rejecting you. Doesn't make it hurt any less though. Are you willing or able to leave her in the family home until she's ready to move into your new house? Perhaps if she feels she has more control over when she moves, that will help her to see that she does actually want to move in with you after all? I'm not suggesting that you delay your own move though, sounds like you need to move for your own sake and that is still a priority.

I can see your dilemma with your H too. But if you're only doing it out of guilt, you are not giving yourself the chance to be happier. I don't want to be harsh, and I do sympathise with his business failing, but he has known for 7 months that this was coming. There must be some options available to him - is he putting any work into finding them, or is he hoping you'll bail him out? You need to be very strong here - because you've got plenty to deal with and he is no longer your responsibility.

I'm sorry you're low again today - PM me if you like, and you can rant as much as you need.

Leaving is a huge decision and can create lots of problems. If you're not sure then I'd say don't leave yet. And think of yourself in 10 or 15 years. Do you think you would say 'I wish I had left all these years ago'. If the answer is yes then it's probably the right thing to do to leave. Don't make a rash decision.

If your reason for staying is fear of coping on your own, I found this blog post really helpful and inspiring - the one about the joy of single motherhood.

herbsandhags.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/the-joy-of-single-motherhood-and-why.html

tired I have been reading your posts but I am rubbish at typing on my phone, and don't use the laptop much, and also don't want DP to catch me posting on here and reading how I really feel, but I just wanted to say that you should not feel bad for posting your thoughts and feelings on here, rant away, it is what this thread has ended up being good for . You sound so down sometimes, and I hope things start looking up for you soon. It must be very hard dealing with your DDs response to your situation, and I am wishing you strength for now, knowing it will all come good eventually.

My DC are very young, but I still worry my oldest DC (4) will blame me if we do split. I also worry that my DP would try to get custody if things got nasty, he loves them to distraction, and although it is a good thing whilst we are together, and for the DC, I worry about the fact he is so able and willing to pull his weight with them. He also threatened me when I was pg with DC1 that I couldn't expect to keep my child if I was ever unfaithful to him . I know this is bullshit, but it still worries me. When I told him a few weeks ago I dodn't think I was in love with him anymore he took them to London for a couple of days to stay with his best mate, to give me some space, but I spent the whole time petrified he wasn't going to bring them back.

I get moment where I sit and think 'omg am I really doing this'. Usually after we have had a good night. He can be a good man, he would never cheat, he works hard, but I don't think we are right for each other anymore, this would be so much easier if he was a nasty fucker.

Pulled this is exactly how I feel, it is so hard, isn't it? We get along pretty well most of the time, and I think I must be the worst sort of shit ever for wanting to break up our family, but then he does something, like hugs me, or goes in for a snog, and my skin crawls, and I feel like it can't continue.

Your DP sounds very needy, just like mine. I also don't feel like my time is my own in the evenings, as DP has always got visibly upset if what I want to do doesn't include him. This was the case long before I voiced any concerns about our relationship. Even reading the paper or going and having a bath have been loaded with guilt for a logn time. Spending time with him has had a distinct air of another chore to be completed about it at times, as I know that if I don't put my hours in with him he is going to be sad and pissed off, and worried about how much I love him. It is stifling.

Ginga how much does your DP know about how you are thinking about leaving? Would a sit-own talk with him help, when the kids aren't about?

I have had a hard weekend, found out my Mum might have breast cancer, so everything else has gone on the backburner, but DP has said he has written a list of things he wants to talk about tonight to do with our relationship, and my stomach is churning just thinking about it. Don't feel up to it at the moment, but we won't get a chance til Thursday if we don't do it tonight, wish me luck .

Aw cannot that's it exactly, I don't feel like my time is my own. And your H definetly sounds like mine. Its awful getting on well a lot of the time, I really do feel like a heartless evil bitch for feeling like this.

Today my H asked why I wasn't wearing my rings, I said I just don't feel comfortable wearing them with how things are. He goes silent on me. Later after me asking him several times what's wrong he messages me saying that its just that he's hurting, and in a pain he's never felt before. I really am nasty aren't I . He said he's committed to change, however is this what I'm wanting...

I wish I could start our relationship over, there are things I would do so differently.

Good luck tonight cannot and I hope your mum is ok.

Oh pulled you are not evil, the fact you are posting on here about how bad you feel about splitting up proves that.

Or nasty, even .

cannot this is really bad:

Even reading the paper or going and having a bath have been loaded with guilt for a long time

You need and are entitled to time for yourself. Doesn't your partner realise that he will suffocate you? Living with guilt is so draining. I know what it's like, I mentioned above about worrying about taking too many peas at the table (almost funny, isn't it? Like being a naughty schoolchild). If you can't even relax and read the paper or enjoy soaking in the bath, what kind of life can you have?

When you say you feel guilty, is this because your partner actually complains about you doing things like having a bath? Or do you just get the bad vibes? When you say you feel guilty I assume that what that also involves is a certain amount of anxiety around doing things that give time for you. This is unacceptable.

So is threatening to take the kids, not to mention it being crazy and unrealistic. Unless there were serious issues of risk, no court would take little ones away from their mother. But I know how it feels - my dh threatened to 'fight for full custody' one time I suggested separating. He suggested he would say I was an unfit mother because of MH and alcohol abuse, and I was terrified.

But he loves the kids too much to do this, and I'm sure yours does too.

I really hope it's good news for your mum.

Pulled of course you are not evil and nasty. If you were you wouldn't give a shit and wouldn't be here agonising. I hope you had a good first day back at Uni.

Apty thanks so much for the link to the blog... I've read it and feel so uplifted by what she says, it is so eloquent, sensible and empowering.

I've bookmarked it and am going to read it whenever I find myself wavering.

Apty thanks from me too for the blog link - very uplifting indeed :).

Cannot I hope your Mum is ok, I imagine you're all very shaken at the moment. If you do have to go ahead with your chat with DH this evening, I hope it goes well - good luck.

apty, great blog, thanks

tired said

God do I get this. I feel like I live so unproductively. I get so little done. Like everything is on hold and I am in a state of torpor. I want to go out and be part of the world again, to get up in the morning and want to go out and do things. I spend so much time sitting around agonising, worrying, feeling resented by dh. It's a bit like depression but it's not depression, it's just feeling unable to engage with the normal world and feeling guilty and exhausted.

My world has shrunk to a little bubble of misery and I feel like the real, actual world is out there, full of opportunities and experiences ....

I so get this

I am feeling more cheerful tonight. I felt like I turned a bit of a corner when I read Apty's blog. It worked better than wine. And no hangover. I'm going to read it again tomorrow.

Good night everyone.