How do you know for sure that you should leave?

[Apty]

Relationships are full of good and bad. What do you do when you are confused about the balance and how bad it really is?

My instincts tell me to leave sometimes, and then at other times that seems like the worst thing to do.

Do you reach a point when you know?

my mum is exactly the same tiredofwaitingforitalltochange

Carry on Pulled and Tired you're on the right track! I'm sure the leaving, packing up, and setting up a new home is the hardest bit. The actual living without the ex will be a piece of piss. Tired, it's probably the best time to start a uni course, it will be a good distraction and you will meet new people. A real new start!

Tired, I totally understand what you mean about leaving a nice home. Our current flat, although nice and spacious, is HA so not the height of luxury. But I've lived here for a while, know and get on with all the neighbours, and just feel at home here. All my memories of the girls growing up are here (eldest is only 6 so loads of time left to create more memories!) That said I have never really been motivated to decorate and get nice furniture, H always used to grumble over wasting money on non essentials. And over the last couple of years the thought was always in the back of my mind that one day I would leave so there was no point spending time and money on this flat.

Thinking logically, I know that bar obnoxious neighbours / nightclub next door etc. you can be happy almost anywhere, it's mostly a question of attitude.

I should hear in the next couple of days if I can move into new flat or not.

my mum is exactly the same

I really feel for you. Mine has more sympathy with dh than with me and seems at some level 'pleased' that my marriage is ending because it proves what a failure I am, and also angry/envious that I'm not prepared to tolerate a miserable life any more. She also resents that I went to Uni, and resents that I'm back there twenty years later, studying for a professional qualification.

She never did anything for herself and she and my dad are like chalk and cheese. I think she's been really bored and frustrated with him. My living in a miserable marriage validated her own choices. Her only bit of satisfaction now is thinking she's better than me staying married. But marriage should be something happy, not a hair shirt you wear to keep society happy.

I know I would drop everything to help one of my daughters if they were having a hard time and offer them my unequivocal support. I don't like my mum at the moment and resent the energy I'm wasting on it.

Once I come out the other side, though, I'm going to be really strong. This experience might make me realise, finally, that she hasn't got anything positive to offer me. Giving up on her is painful but I think it's going to be liberating.

I have never really been motivated to decorate and get nice furniture, H always used to grumble over wasting money on non essentials.

You'll feel so different when you've got your own place. Right, I'm going to stop navel-gazing and go and do some decorating!

tiredofwaitingforitalltochange

my mum and dad are breaking up right now after 34 yrs of marriage they were never happy - she cheated alot,i just feel that their lack of support really makes me scared to strike out on my own.i decided a few years ago just to stop trying with my parents neither of them has bothered with me or my beautiful kids so its their loss -doesn't make it hurt any less though.
i just want to be happy and life is short why spend it unhappy im sure the kids notice ,having said that im a good actress !!
only my best friend and little sister know how unhappy i am.

Poor you ww :(

I wonder how many women on this thread have got crap/unsupportive mums?

Not making any assumptions, just thinking aloud.

Can't help wondering if toxic mother = people pleaser daughter/low expectations of relationships/settling/low self esteem/self blame = stuck in bad marriage/emotional abuse/guilt re leaving = on this thread.

I think if my mum was the kind of mum I try to be, I would have had higher expectations of life. I would have been more confident. I would have had higher self esteem. I might not have married a grumpy, negative abuser and felt 'comfortable' trying to be good enough all the time, conditioned as I was to do this - by my mother.

And it might have taken me less time than it did to start struggling my way to the surface, and it might have taken less time to get the hell out. And it might be less agonising and guilt-laden than it is now.

When you get older you want your mum to be like your best mate - always supportive, always with your interests in mind, always wanting you to have, and thinking you deserve, a great life. If my daughter was unhappy living with a petty tyrant I would insist she escape, I would make her feel good and strong about it. Not feel wrong, guilty, inadequate. If I had my mum's support I think all this would be much easier.

Not that I'm blaming her, it's all down to me in the end, isn't it?

Just some thoughts. Sorry for the self indulgence :)

Interesting re the mums.
My mum was just lovely. A strong, straightforward woman who loved my dad very much, and he her , and was married to him for over 50 years.
Oddly she never wanted to know about my marriage problems.
She used to say
I needed to sort it out for myself.
She died last year after a short illness.
I miss her so much

*Mine has more sympathy with dh than with me and seems at some level 'pleased' that my marriage is ending because it proves what a failure I am, and also angry/envious that I'm not prepared to tolerate a miserable life any more. She also resents that I went to Uni, and resents that I'm back there twenty years later, studying for a professional qualification.

She never did anything for herself and she and my dad are like chalk and cheese. I think she's been really bored and frustrated with him. My living in a miserable marriage validated her own choices. Her only bit of satisfaction now is thinking she's better than me staying married. But marriage should be something happy, not a hair shirt you wear to keep society happy.*

I still haven't told my mum, but this is exactly how I expect things to pan out - I'd bet money on it. She loves my H, and he panders to her neediness, so he will fully have her support. I gave her a huge clue this weekend (inadvertently at first, then I decided to use it as a way of testing the water with her, as I will need to tell her in the next couple of weeks) and was expecting a phone call today to ask "is something up?" But of course, I forgot. She doesn't actually have any interest in me so will have completely missed the cue. So the news will come as a huge blow and it will be drama central.

Except it won't be. I've realised today, having seen a solicitor, how many things I have to deal with and organise over the coming weeks, and I can't afford to carry anyone who is trying to get their needs met over mine ( except of course my DCs). So that's what she will be told - offer support if you want to, it will be gratefully accepted. Criticism and woe-is-me-isms will be flatly refused entry.

I have also been pondering the link between unsupportive mums and our own failing relationships - and I think there's no getting away from it. But this is where it stops - we won't be doing the same to our own daughters or indeed sons, so hopefully they will make better relationship choices when their turns come.

Will come back later to properly read all your posts - have head firmed lodged up backside of late so have been a poor correspondent.

Hi Middy, sorry you're here, but welcome iykwim!

Really interesting about mothers. I feel really let down about my mother's reaction, although I don't know how I cold have expected anything different. I can't really cope with discussing anything with her at all. She makes it all about her and I feel like I have to protect myself by not even engaging.

It's been a difficult week with him being quite persuasive about putting things back together. I know it would be wrong but with the children also really missing him being here, there's a lot of pressure. It feels very confusing and I wish I could be clear and strong. Just exhausted really.

Welcome Middy, glad you've found this thread, you're definitely not on your own here. Please do keep posting, sometimes seeing things in print makes it clearer, and of course you'll get lots of kind words of support too.

She makes it all about her and I feel like I have to protect myself by not even engaging. Apty this is where I'm at too. It's so exhausting having to deal with all this without having a mum to truly rely on, isn't it? Do you have friends that you have confided in, who can scoop you up? Or can you get a break away from the DCs for a few hours just to rest and/or clear your head? You are probably much stronger than you think, but you do need to take care of yourself while you're dealing with all the pressure.

As for my own toxic mother - we live in the same town, and I used to rely on her quite heavily for childcare, but haven't been able to dicsuss my feelings with her ever. Then she started her toxic nonsense on DD when she was in her care, so I put a stop to that too. I only see her for short bursts of time now, and I am very quick to call her on any rudeness (it has taken me years to be able to stand up to her like that). I have to work hard to stay "adult" with her when I do see her, but it's definitely worth it.

I think I have mentioned on this thread before, that the one thing that has helped me deal with my mother and how she has brought me up (and how that has impacted every relationship decision I've ever made) was a therapy called BodyTalk. In one session my mum featured really strongly (and in another session my dad featured very strongly as her enabler) and since that day, I have felt free of her shackles. It still hurts hugely that she cannot support me in the way other mums support their daughters, but I am no longer hamstrung by her beliefs or what she will think of me. I am just quietly accepting of the fact that she cannot support me, and gets some satisfaction from criticising me. It's her problem. I'd really recommend BodyTalk to anyone. No idea how it works - but it does! There's a website with a list of practitioners on it.

In other news, I had a complete wobble last night after my appointment with the solicitor. I just felt that she didn't have any concrete advice for me, and she was very gloomy about H's chances of buying me out (apparently mortgages for this kind of thing are like hen's teeth just now). Interestingly though, even though I was very low, every time I thought about giving in and just not doing this whole separation thing, I was filled with dread.

So I had an early night, and woke this morning with renewed determination to stay positive and keep pressing on with plans. So now have a shiny new current account in my own name, have started to transfer some bits and pieces into my name only, have called up for a benefits application pack. Onwards :).

Delurking to say Hello. Thistle and Apty keep on powering through, you know you are doing the right thing.

On the Mum thing, my Mum is lovely, but I am still unable to talk to her. I know that she wants a happy home for her Grandchildren. I feel the weight of that whenever I think about talking to her. She saw a consultant yesterday for a biopsy and mammogram by the way, and there are two lumps, but he thinks they are both cysts. Will find out in 9 days for definite.

Back any news on the flat?

I feel conspicuous in my silence, but I don't really feel I can post anything on here at the moment.

I'm back again. I caved in the other day, I couldn't take the atmosphere, I'm so useless. I am waiting to hear back with an appointment to view a house though, so that's a step forwards. I just keep thinking that if I stay with H then I may never meet someone who is right for me, if I leave then in 5, 10, 15 years time I may be happy. I haven't spoken to my mum about this, I think it's because it'll make it real and final, I won't be able to stay in this limbo. I'm so scared of making the wrong choice, but I can;t relax or be happy atm. Hope your all staying strong and doing well x

Well thanks to a screw up with home delivery for the weekly shop I've had a few hours just me and my DD this evening. And you know what, it's just made me realise even more that I don't want to be with H any more and that leaving is the right path to take. It's been lovely and so stress free, and just makes me want it even more. Seeing a flat to possibly rent tomorrow, first time I've ever done this, and I'm getting quite... excited by it all... I'll miss H in some ways, but I'll be glad not to be dealing with the same crap anymore

Hello everyone. Welcome Middy. Thanks for what you said. I will be qualified in less than two years, so not long now :)

Stay on here and share your feelings and how things are going. We all understand each other I think.

cannot sorry for what you are going through. Try not to worry. Your consultant is almost certainly right. I have had two referrals to the breast clinic so I have an idea of how it feels but remind yourself that it's much more likely to be something harmless.

I couldn't find this thread earlier, and was worried I'd killed it with my musings about mums!

Well I have to get my act together and start physically moving. Younger dd is frustrated by the postponements while elder one is the opposite, a bit hostile as it is all approaching.

Dh has made an offer on a house, it was turned down, so he offered more. He is waiting to hear and has another one to go and see. I'm not getting such bad vibes from him.

Feeling a bit 'pulled in two' myself at the moment. Not having a date to move I feel frustrated and want to sort it all out. Now things are progressing fast with our sale and dh is making plans it is all starting to hit home and I feel very sad.

Sorry to hear how tough it is Apty. I am dreading the girls missing their dad and feeling responsible. And feel that being denied them some of the time myself will be really hard, but will be my just punishment for what I am doing :(

tired, try not to see it as a punishment, with your demanding studies, it might actually be time for yourself to work on what's important to you, and to help to build a better future for all of you. We all need time to ourselves, it could be a good thing. There is a lot of guilt, and grief, but hopefully there will also be some relief and some space to start rebuilding.

Pulled - glad you have more resolve about what to do. Excitement is good! I think it will be sad, but that doesn't mean it's not the right thing does it?

Thistle - I googled bodytalk - looks interesting, but can't work out what it actually involves.

I feel really up and down at the moment, never very constant. Sometimes I have total panic about what I'm doing and doubt myself completely, and other times i KNOW i'm doing the right thing. Just wish I felt stronger really. Work is really draining as I find it hard to concentrate and focus, and sleeping is a problem so i'm tired all the time. I really hope that it starts to get a bit easier. I know that if he was here, it would be much worse though.

Apty I know what you mean about being up and down, yesterday I had so much resolve, today I wave between knowing it's right and then feeling so guilty and like you doubting myself. I'm sure we'll both make the right decision in time.

I feel so sad that it's ending, but at the same time hopeful, that I won;t have to put up with this forever and that I might be happy. The flat I saw today was no good, but I've found some more to look at. I also almost told my mum today, it seems I am slowly edging closer to leaving. When I looked at the flat I just thought how nice it'd be to have my own home that is actually relaxing.

Tonight, no surprise really, is stressful. H is home and already getting all 'put out' that I am studying downstairs and am not upstairs with him. I'm getting the whole wounded, hurt, so don;t you love me (not said, but definitely feels like its implied). I am so struggling to get my work done as he will then make an atmosphere (unintentionally I think....) so that it's difficult to concentrate. I've also had the checking everything I've spent... I hate it. My sister has started her xmas shopping, I love xmas shopping but just can't bring myself to start yet as I don't have the energy yet to defend all the spending and to have it all scrutinized . He's really not changing at all, just superficially...Fingers crossed I can muster the strength to make this my last xmas with H...

How are we all doing?

Not much change here, except we've now set a date to tell the DCs, and begin the process of telling everyone else. H is going to move out until he can buy me out and I have secured a new house. He is still more interested in which bits of furniture he can take, than in agreeing a schedule for having the DCs.

I'm finding that I have big wobbles at the strangest times - usually when out and about, say in a shop, or at work. It all starts to feel very surreal and it's really unnerving. Thankfully though, they have been short lived - long may that continue.

Anyway just checking in with you all as I didn't want the thread to disappear, there's so much good support and understanding here xx

pulledintwo - this is why im waiting until after christmas i dont want the kids to go without ,very shallow i know.

Hi all, I have just read on another thread that you have big weekends coming up Thistle and Tired, I wanted to wish you both luck.

I am still lurking around, still in limbo. I am feeling very weak at the moment for letting this limbo carry on, and it is not fair on me or DP. I can't make the jump to having a proper relationship with him at the moment, so wonder if I ever will be able to, even though we are getting on pretty well in our domestic / family set up. I can't forget all of the hurt involved in our sex life whenever DP shows me any affection physically, and just want him to back off. He isn't able to. And feel like I am healing sleeping on my own.

My free counselling sessions are coming to an end this week, so I wonder where it is from here?

NC - I also wish thistle and tired best of luck. Hope it works out for you both. I have been following this for a while and thought it had ended its run. I was in a similar confused state a few years ago and found it all so hard and wanted to pinpoint exact issues and blame DP (now DH) for his sexual pestery, immature issues.

Cannot, your situation is very much like mine was and I got advised (by my mother) whilst in my limbo state that I needed to feel happy that i had given it a real go, because he is a good man and he was changing so much at the time that i, he and the family deserved it. She told me to take complete control. I set out all the physical boundaries on my terms and how I liked it and I was to be the one to instigate anything if at all. I didnt initially feel like it because I felt so much resentment over previous behaviours. He was in the spare room for 2 months while I healed too. He had counselling about his neediness and sexual behaviour. It transpired that there were childhood issues that he was desperate to avoid repeating. The counselling and my openness of exactly how our physical relationship should be and explaining that it may take some time to fully trust him physically again slowly helped and worked out wonderfully in the end. He is brilliant now, showing respect, trust and complete honesty, i also realised we held much more interests in common than i previously did too. He does have his minor faults of course but So do we all - I ended up marrying the fool! I still remember on occasion his lack of respect and remind him of itto keep him on his toes. I am quite a strong and controlling person but didnt feel it at the time I felt out of touch and out of control. I wanted to be with friends but found they too like me were getting old and werent having so much fun and happiness, in fact most of them had been on the brink of leaving their partners at some stage or other. Mums-net is great and has lots of wonderful advise and sometimes all to quickly advise the get out of there quick route, I get the vibe that you don't want that but would rather have a happy respectful family. Take very good care of yourself and I hope it works out for you.

I am glad it worked out for you unfairdismissal. It does sound like a very similar situation, but I am worried it is a case of too little too late here. His intentions are good, but his actions are the complete opposite. He does things I don't want him to do at the moment, nothing really bad, but stuff like hopping in the shower when I am in there, going in for lots of cuddles and kisses, and then apologises straight after and promises to give me my space from now on. I am Going Nuts. Don't know up from down.

Cannot I felt like that too, set down the rules/boundaries and advise he seeks counselling, if that fails you have can be happy you tried. It is hard I know for sure but worth it if it works.

The boundaries have been set, but it is like he just can't help himself but step over them. I end up feeling bad when he steps over them as he looks so gutted and annoyed with himself as soon as he realises what he has done, muttering about having to say "sorry" again and how he is always having to say sorry. Madness.

He will be starting some counselling soon, which is good news for him I think, whether we work out or not.

Who set the boundaries? When I set ours strongly something clicked with him and that is great about the counselling it really helped my Dh. It sounds for sure like your Dp really doesn't want to do these things at the moment which is good. Tell him straight what you want as boundaries - boundaries for now anyway, you take control.