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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Separation & beyond.. Lala goes forth!!!

636 replies

LalaDipsey · 01/08/2012 18:49

Hi everyone. Well, the saga continues. H turned up for his single 'abuse assessment session' on Monday to find that the counsellor had, by mistake, booked him in for Wednesday instead of Monday! I was fuming!
I spoke to them and said it may just be one more week to them, but to me I had mentally psyched myself up for H to have this DV assessment and was then ready for a session this Monday coming either together or on my own. Nothing could be done but I was gutted as I had hoped us to be significantly further along by next week and now we won't be.
On the plus side, night 3 of sleep training tonight so hoping for a massive improvement.
Had no idea what to call this thread... Felt this was still the right place as I extricate us from this relationship but I hope by the time this reaches 1000 posts H has either moved out, or is living here whilst the divorce is being processed so I hope the title sums that up!!
Thanks for everyone still with me

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 16/08/2012 20:31

'I am coming to terms with being the 'dumper'.
I don't want to be the 'dumper' but know it will be down to me.'

Excellent insight.

You need to talk and find out why this is. And you need to get over it.

lagartija · 16/08/2012 20:57

excellent advice as always, math.

blackcurrants · 16/08/2012 21:29

Lala I lost you for a while, and have been wondering how you are. Glad to find you again.

I thanked him for feeding DTs breakfast he said 'there you go - you smiled at me so I helped out' or words to that effect - basically implying it was my fault he hadn't done this before

This made me so very sad. "Doing your share" isn't helping out. I don't think "Oh I am such a good mother today!" and expect DH to praise me for putting DS's things away. I think "This is part of the job of being a parent." When he calls it something like 'helping out' - that implies that he thinks it's your job really but he'll do a bit here and there. It's NOT JUST YOUR JOB and he's a terrible, terrible father if he thinks that basic housework or basic childcare are 'helping out' or 'above and beyond' or deserving of a fucking medal.

Sorry. I don't usually swear. This just drives me to distraction!

I've read through but I am not sure I got everything - my 2 year old is a bit demanding tonight. Is he still drinking? Because you know, you can't trust a word he says or any promises he makes until he's in AA, and going every day or every couple of days...

SecrectFarleysNibbler · 16/08/2012 23:50

Lala - I hear you - its hard to make this break. You ARE moving forward and I can appreciate the need to find your own identity again - its all part of the process you have to go through at your own pace. If, however, there is one thing that is being shouted from the roof tops here, it's the need to do some solo counselling. You NEED some time away from his influence to really explore the whole. Xxx

LalaDipsey · 17/08/2012 18:49

Hi. He is drinking a little bit. For the past month a can (sometimes 2) of Carling a night no idea what he drinks when he works away though.
I guess love is relevant as if I thought I still loved him it could be motivation to try and work through this now he has seriously cut down on his drinking for now bets on when it increases again please!
I am very much looking forward to my solo counselling session on Monday. I really hope we can cram as much as possible into an hour. I guess I need to organise my thoughts as to priorities to discuss as it would be a waste to use it just to slag him off!!
I guess number 1 priority is why, when I am away from him I am adamant it is over and yet I fail to finish it when with him?

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 17/08/2012 18:54

Lala, how can you working on this make a difference?

What do you think you could you be doing to improve this relationship/work through this?

When you say 'love' what do you mean?

LalaDipsey · 17/08/2012 20:10

Ok. What I could be doing if I could be arsed I wanted to was trying to engage with H, be nice to him, chat about his day - give him something worth battling 'the demon drink' and his anger for. But I don't feel like it.
Love- oh - what I mean by love is the scripture from John - Love is patient, Love is kind etc. The Love I don't get from H.
I guess also the toe-curling excitement of being 'in love' and wanting to touch and be with someone. I don't feel any of that for him anymore. I am just trying to make sure those feelings have gone rather than just trapped behind the safe wall I have put up - not that it perhaps makes a difference except it should (in theory) be easier to end this damn thing if those feelings have gone completely.
Does this make sense or does it sound like I'm rambling?!

OP posts:
Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake · 17/08/2012 20:15

I don't think you are not ending it because you love him, I think there's some weird guilt thing going on and maybe some fear of being alone. That's what I think you need to get your head around, why you feel you owe this twat so much and why you feel so responsible for his happiness above your own and your own children's happiness.

RedMolly · 17/08/2012 20:20

I think you are not ending it because:

  1. Fear of the unknown - at least you know what you get with him
  2. You feel you owe him (esp in regard to the ivf)
  3. You think you can change him/save him
  4. You think it is (in part at least) your fault

I don't think it is because you think you may still love him.

NoWayNoHow · 17/08/2012 21:50

Agree with RedMolly and Lagarti - there are some far more deep-rooted reasons behind you staying.

Don't forget that before you came to the realisation of what a total shit your H is, you were engaging with him, trying hard to be nice, asking about his day.

It didn't make a blind bit of difference to his behaviour. All it did was stroke his ego.

Why on earth would you think it would make any difference now??

Every time you post, Lala, it is blatantly obvious that you don't love him and don' want to be with him.

What are you going to do to get away from him? How are you going to move forward? Do you not have a sense of your life slipping past you without you even noticing?

We're on this planet ONCE. How much more of your precious time and the precious, impressionable childhood's of your DC is this ungrateful man going to have?

PlopButNOPudding · 18/08/2012 00:09

When a close friend of mine's marriage ended, she told me that on her first trip to the supermarket as a single woman she just stood there and started to cry because she had no idea what to buy.
This was because she always bought what her ex wanted. She had no idea what food she liked anymore.

I believe among many other emotions a similar thing is happening to you.
Over the years he has conditioned you to put his needs first.

You have become used to making choices primarily that serve him first and foremost and for caring very deeply what he thinks of you. Anything that displeases him makes you feel very guilty. This puts him in a very powerful position.

You have moved forward, you now know this has to end. But when it's crunch time you care too much what he thinks, and you feel guilty/responsible. (I think- based on your posts) you are looking for thus to end with his 'approval' perhaps?

I have quote from somewhere:

"Don't seek approval from others, you will only end up their prisoner"

Ending this by serving up divorce papers and kicking him out of the house is the right thing for you and the dc.

It doesn't matter what he thinks of you.

It doesn't matter if his feelings are hurt or he has nowhere to go. You are not responsible for him.

It's ok to put yourself and your dc first. In fact it's a necessity.

mathanxiety · 18/08/2012 01:13

'...give him something worth battling 'the demon drink' and his anger for...'

You have given him three children. You yourself have said 'I do' to him. That has not been enough.

I think you are still hoping that you can save him from himself. Please do not keep going down this blind alley. Maybe it is a blow to your confidence to think that nothing you do will make a difference to the drinking or the anger, but the truth is that only he can overcome those problems of his and to do that he has to want to himself for his own sake first, and then for yours and for the sake of the children after that if at all. But primarily he has to want this and he has to do it for his own sake.

Nobody can overcome such enormous problems for the sake of someone else. He has to want to -- he has to see that it is in his own interest to do so. Right now he thinks he has nothing to lose. He has no motivation. You working on it will not give him motivation. That has never been reality.

I think there is also guilt here -- do you feel that you are abandoning him to his misery by separating. If so, this may be related to your feeling (that I suspect you have) that you could save him if you tried hard enough, if you loved him enough. The other side of guilt is a feeling that you have been inadequate as a loving wife and that has made his problems emerge - he has helped this along with his opinions about the fertility treatment.

If that is the case, it is a bit 'conceited', for want of a better word. It puts undue faith in your ability to make this man feel or think or do. He is an independent human being, not an outgrowth of your hopes and dreams, and what's more, he is a human being in the thrall of something more powerful than you (or him) -- alcohol.

Neither of you respects alcohol enough. Neither of you is afraid of it to the degree you should be. He thinks he is master of it and you think you can beat it. You are both wrong.

'Love is always patient and kind; love is never jealous; love is not boastful or conceited, it is never rude and never seeks its own advantage, it does not take offence or store up grievances.
Love does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but finds its joy in the truth.
It is always ready to make allowances, to trust, to hope and to endure whatever comes.'

Is this the one you were thinking of? (letter to the Corinthians)

'Love never comes to an end. But if there are prophecies, they will be done away with; if tongues, they will fall silent; and if knowledge, it will be done away with.
For we know only imperfectly, and we prophesy imperfectly; but once perfection comes, all imperfect things will be done away with.
When I was a child, I used to talk like a child, and see things as a child does, and think like a child; but now that I have become an adult, I have finished with all childish ways.
Now we see only reflections in a mirror, mere riddles, but then we shall be seeing face to face. Now I can know only imperfectly; but then I shall know just as fully as I am myself known.
As it is, these remain: faith, hope and love, the three of them; and the greatest of them is love.'

From that passage, in this context, I would take the message that you can still love, and you can have faith, and you can hope, and you can endure whatever comes -- but you can do all that while separated, especially the 'enduring whatever comes' part. I would in fact take the message that as the mother of those three children you are duty bound to hope and to endure whatever comes in order to keep them safe, to ensure that they grow up in an environment where they do not see and hear abuse.

Right now, loving the children requires enormous physical self sacrifice but not really that much by way of heartbreak, or the disappointment and tearing out of hair that can accompany the teenage years and the hurt that teenage callousness can inflict on a loving parent. You will have the chance to experience all of this down the road like everyone else though...
Does it fit more with your view of love as requiring self sacrifice, or your image of yourself as a saving grace, to make your H the focus of your love right now? (I am sorry if this is a blunt question.)
Are you able to tell him that you hope and have faith that he will find his own path through his anger and his drinking, and stop thinking that you can be his conductor?

Can you leave it in the hands of a higher power, just as AA asks members to do? Faith and hope require letting him go and acknowledging that control is out of your hands. Faith and hope exist hand in hand with love. Together they will outlast all else.

There can be no perfection. No perfect wife, no perfect husband, no perfect mother or father. Expecting perfection of ourselves or others is misguided. However, when there are small children depending on us we need to look at what we can do to improve our game. Even if they are not the squeakiest wheel or demanding in the same was as a H may be, they have enormous needs. Their needs and their demands on their parents are absolutely valid and must be met to the best of a parent's ability, whereas pandering to what may be wrongly identified as a dysfunctional adult's 'needs' often has more to do with fulfilling some sort of need in you than real respect for that other adult as a separate human being (without which there cannot be love). It is so tempting to look for the gratification that comes from oiling that squeaky wheel though.

I would examine 'love' as you see it. 'In love' is gone out the window; it doesn't last for anyone - it can come and go; the day to day love that makes a marriage is a verb, not a noun. It consists of mutual effort to put the other first, to choose being kind rather than right, not a feeling in your toes (or anywhere else).

I am getting the feeling that you equate love with self sacrifice, self erasure, a desire to bury yourself, maybe from a fear of being alone, fear of ending 'childish ways' and dependence on Another? I think you need to ask yourself what you are getting from the self sacrifice aspect of it.

I think it might be useful for you to imagine the advice given to passengers travelling with small children on a plane -- if the oxygen masks descend those responsible for young children are told to put their own mask on first and then proceed to help their children. You are no good to anyone if you sacrifice yourself to the extent where you leave yourself without oxygen.

LalaDipsey · 18/08/2012 21:14

Math that's an amazing post and I just wish I could reply as I read it (from a pc) because when I post back on my phone I can't read the prior posts.
I agree with most of what you say.
Feeling sick that H has gone out drinking tonight. Can't believe I'm typing that again. He had 2 bottles of beer at home & then said he 'might pop out for a pint'. That was at 7pm. He texted to say he was going to have a Chinese later (I don't like them), unless I wanted another takeaway. I texted back I would have a ready meal. He texted back 'ok cu tomorrow' - meaning he wouldn't be back til I'd gone to bed. Meaning he was going to drink.
It's good. It means any slight doubt can go away. It means that him cutting down to 1-2 cans lasted a month. It means I can utterly tackle with the counsellor on Monday how I kick myself into gear and kick him out. Work out how to move past my guilt, failure at marriage, depriving dc of a dad who can be amazing (but let's remember not very consistently!), guilt at persuading him to do ivf (you're right, math, I think that's my biggest guilt), failure to change/ 'solve' him, failure for me to 'be enough' so he would change for me,
So - let's hope the counsellor is on her 'A' game!!!!! In one hour can she turn me from mouse into lion??!!!

OP posts:
Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake · 18/08/2012 21:26

Go Lala! One bone to pick though. He is NEVER an amazing dad. He is frequently an amazingly crap dad, but no man who ever behaves the way he does can ever earn the title "amazing dad". Hope the counsellor helps get you some clarity to kick his sorry arse out. Once he's gone you'll be amazed to see how clearer things are. xx

NoWayNoHow · 18/08/2012 21:59

I'm going to get a T-shirt printed with "Team Lala" written on it. What excellent objectives for your counselling. Write them down/print them and take them with you.

mathanxiety · 18/08/2012 22:07

Having the house all to yourself would help you tremendously to go from mouse to lion.

You can behave and think your way into the role as you go along, one day at a time. You don't need all your ducks in a row before starting. You can grow into your new and better life.

RedMolly · 18/08/2012 22:52

There is an old film - a cold war satire - called The Mouse That Roared. That could be you!

SecrectFarleysNibbler · 18/08/2012 23:59

CYCLE, CYCLE, CYCLE!!! That's what you need to remember! He does a little jig - you re happy and forgiving, he makes a cock up but says sorry and does a little jig ..............

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats · 20/08/2012 08:50

Hi Lala, how are you doing today? Brew

hillyhilly · 20/08/2012 10:38

Good luck today lala, focus in what YOU need!

blackcurrants · 20/08/2012 15:02

Hi Lala, I hope you're having a good day! Remember, you and your children deserve to be treated well. Your happiness is important.

LalaDipsey · 20/08/2012 20:29

Hi All
Well it was a good session. I do really like the counsellor. We talked about where I am. I ended up describing it that I felt like it was over, that my feelings for H had gone and that I had 'stepped over the line', but that a very small part of me wondered if he could pull me back over if his behaviour change was sustained.
I don't think he can. I think this is it. I think I am also scared of the 'battle' after making him realise we are over, that is going to take a lot of energy and determination and I have to be ready.
Oh, and he drank Saturday night properly so his drinking isn't over either.
I know it's over. I just still feel a bit paralysed.
I am going to try and give him a bit of opportunity to hang himself prove he has changed by gently challenging him, and maybe if I feel brave enough have a friend over in the evening or a weekend or talk to someone on the phone in the evening or weekend when he is there and not working. See if he can change his reaction.
I do wish I could see her every week on my own. Next week she has to now see H on his own, for fairness, but hopefully he will work away on a Monday again soon so I can go on my own.

OP posts:
MrsTomHardy · 20/08/2012 20:59

Why are you still going to give him chances to change?? Haven't you given him enough time already

Please just tell him its over for good!

mathanxiety · 20/08/2012 21:19

What is stopping you seeing someone every week on your own?

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake · 20/08/2012 21:23

why more chances? End it Lala. Enough already.