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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Separation & beyond.. Lala goes forth!!!

636 replies

LalaDipsey · 01/08/2012 18:49

Hi everyone. Well, the saga continues. H turned up for his single 'abuse assessment session' on Monday to find that the counsellor had, by mistake, booked him in for Wednesday instead of Monday! I was fuming!
I spoke to them and said it may just be one more week to them, but to me I had mentally psyched myself up for H to have this DV assessment and was then ready for a session this Monday coming either together or on my own. Nothing could be done but I was gutted as I had hoped us to be significantly further along by next week and now we won't be.
On the plus side, night 3 of sleep training tonight so hoping for a massive improvement.
Had no idea what to call this thread... Felt this was still the right place as I extricate us from this relationship but I hope by the time this reaches 1000 posts H has either moved out, or is living here whilst the divorce is being processed so I hope the title sums that up!!
Thanks for everyone still with me

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 13/08/2012 20:57

Everything he does and says is deliberate Lala. He is completely wrapped up in himself and can conceive of no other way of living. What you are seeing and hearing is him, pure and unadulterated and unfiltered. He is furious.

There is no better nature there that you will somehow succeed in unearthing and nurturing. Please focus on yourself and your own personal growth and drop the malignant self pride that is telling you there must be a way to find the best in him and bring it out. You do not have a role here Lala when it comes to your H. You have a responsibility to yourself and to your DCs first and last.

Tempting though it may be to believe you can save him and all of you from the worst that is in him, the advice about the drowning man comes into play here -- do not jump in to save him. He will drag you under.

If I say tomorrow that he negates helping out when he devalues me will he take it on board/be shocked he has acted in that way or go in a huff that 'he can't do anything right and if that's my attitude there's no point him trying' ok no point answering that is there

  • Why are you contemplating making any such remark?
To start in on his behaviour would be completely counter-productive. It plays right into his hands and sets you off once more round and round in crazymaking circles.

I still want him gone, if only to clear my head. If he would only agree to a trial separation (physically) for 6 months that would be my ideal. Give me some space to see exactly what I want and if I miss him at all because don't think I would. I don't think I have love left for him.

  • Two points about temporary separation here:
  1. A temporary separation is like swimming with one foot on the bottom.
  2. Whether your separation is temporary or not will depend on him just as much as it will on you. There is no guarantee if you separate temporarily that he would want to return in six months.

But he won't. If he moves out it's over as far as he's concerned

  • At the bottom of all this, there is an abject fear of losing this man, Lala, and he knows it. That is why you understand that you either have to accept him warts and all or face a future without him. That is why joint counselling is going to be a waste of time unless you are strong enough to call his bluff and risk him saying 'OK that's that then. I'll be packed and gone by the end of next week. Have a nice life'.

Lala, until you are strong enough to face a future without him you will never have the chance of a happy life with him. As long as you are operating from the incredibly weak position of inability to face the future without him, or seeing in the breakdown of your marriage some sort of failure on your part that you cannot bear the shame of, then you are his prisoner - worse, you are your own prisoner.

At least I told the counsellor when I saw her 1:1 that I wanted it to be over so hoping she will help me tomorrow. I do hope I don't come back on here tomorrow night saying how right you all were about joint counselling

  • What happens tomorrow at the counselling is entirely up to you Lala. You have to steel yourself and say what needs saying. Nobody can do this for you.

Are you ready to call his bluff? If not, cancel the joint session and have a few on your own where you will examine why you think abuse is preferable to being single.

SecrectFarleysNibbler · 13/08/2012 22:54

Math is spot on Lala - it's all about letting go. Is it letting go of him in particular or letting go of having a partner that is worrying you? Perhaps talking to some other single mums might help,you see a way forward without a partner for a while. I doesn't think it really matters anymore why he behaves the way he does, whether it's conscious or not, what's important is how it's making you feel and understanding that this is not going to change. You are wasting energy trying to figure it out. You need to see your emotions as pound coins and at the moment you are depositing into his emotional bank account not your own. Every time you give him your attention, even in his absence, that is emotional money you are depositing to him!!!!! Re-focus on spending as little as possible on him and more on yourself. Make lists of small actions that are going to bring you closer the goal that you want, like planning how to rearrange the furniture once he has moved out. You once wrote lists of the good and bad points - have you still got that? If not do it again. Mentally rehearse in your mind how the joint meeting might go. Visualise yourself standing up and saying what you need to say, or calmly ending the session if he tries to hijack it.

Be strong tomorrow - if he is trying to take control of things pull it back to your corner. Ask him to repeat things, you taking control. Ask for a break if you are feeling overwhelmed. Use the Carpark if he tries to slip in unwanted topics - " i think thats an issue that should be carparked for later or another time, its taking us of course of the point of this session". Use silence - sometimes less is more - say your point and then nothing, don't try to gabble to fill silence. Say that you need to pause to think through what's been said so far and make him sit and wait while you think. Be ready to end the whole session if it is not staying on track. Have a notebook to jot things down that are being said - very intimidating.

Did you think about how many times you anticipate meeting for joint counselling? If this is to be the one and only time, where you want to establish that this is over and he needs to leave then I would also make this very clear at the start.

God luck tomorrow Lala. Xx

PlopButNOPudding · 14/08/2012 03:14

"If he moves out it's over as far as he's concerned."

Lala - this is not a bad thing. This what you want, right? For him to move out and for it to be over?? For him to understand it's over??? It's time to stop trying to 'fix' this.

You desperately, desperately need help in the form of INDIVIDUAL counselling to help you reset your self-worth and your expectations of a healthy relationship. He has defined these for you. To benefit no-one but himself.

Every time you engage in any way with this man you are subjected to subtle and not-so-subtle put downs and gaslighting. To be blunt, by engaging with him you are damaging yourself psychologically.

Do you really want to pass your distorted view of healthy relationships, and rock-bottom expectations to your children?

Will you be saying to your dds in 20 years time, if they ask for advice on their relationship "but he's trying really hard- he wiped down the bumbo for you!" Or "maybe you just didn't explain it clearly enough to him- you need to look at the way you're communicating"

No? Thought not.

You have the power to stop this lala. You need to listen to all the great advice here and end it and get him out. Not just for you but for the future that your dc's will have if you don't.

Whisky4Tea · 14/08/2012 04:16

Lala, I think math and lagartija are right. I really recommend you read the following:

herbsandhags.blogspot.mx/2012/08/the-joy-of-single-motherhood-and-why.html

I think it might speak to you. This is a bit from it :

It never seems to occur to the people who write those articles, to urge men to stop being such unacceptable living companions that women can?t bear to tolerate living with them even for the sake of their incomes and the respectable status they confer on us; or to pay a proper amount of maintenance so that they don?t disadvantage their children (the majority of non-resident parents pay no maintenance and of those who do, the average sum is a woefully paltry amount). It also never occurs to them to campaign for workplaces to be adapted to the needs of all its workers, not just the ones without caring responsibilities, so that more lone parents can work in jobs which actually pay enough to meet living expenses; or to call on benefits to be higher to ensure that children of lone parents are not disadvantaged. No, the only solution they can see, is for men and women to stay together and role-model an unhappy relationship to their children.

Because that was the propaganda I?d heard all my life, I tried to hold the relationship together, before realising that I was the only one bothering to try to do that. Women are given the very clear message from when they are very young, that relationships are their business ? that they are responsible for working on them. Look at magazines aimed specifically at boys and men versus those aimed specifically at girls and women. It?s immediately obvious who has been appointed the guardian of the Sacred Relayshunship, where the onus lies, on keeping it healthy, happy and alive.

For years, I didn?t notice that I was the only one working on making this relationship work, because that was the natural order of things. Women?s time, our energy, our focus, is directed towards making relationships work, because to break up a relationship, even where there are no children involved, is sold to us as a really big deal. We aren?t told that every day, we should ask ourselves why we are continuing to be in this relationship; we are told that every day, we should do something to maintain it without asking why. Breaking it up is seen as a frivolous, immature, flaky sort of way of carrying on ? the sign of someone with ?ishoos?, someone who is afraid of commitment, has psychological problems, can?t maintain a relationship because they are somehow damaged or wrongly-wired.

I had fallen for all those lies, so of course I went into denial about the fact that I was horribly unhappy in the relationship I had. That is the most common self-defence women have in unhappy relationships: pretend it?s not ?as bad as all that?. They compare the relationships that other women have with the men they live with, with their own relationship, instead of comparing their relationships to that of the men they actually live with. So for ages ? weeks, months, years ? women don?t notice that they are the only ones doing the emotional work of the relationship ? the attempts to make everyone happy, to balance everyone?s needs, to ensure that the family unit runs as smoothly as possible. The effort of doing this, is immense; when you let it go, it?s like putting down an enormous burden that you hadn?t realised you were carrying. The day my ex left, I put on loud music and danced around the kitchen while I cleaned it.

mummybussy · 14/08/2012 09:17

Wow!! The above post is spot on. Hope it helps you clarify things in your head. Good luck tonight. Take the leap of faith and I promise you will land in a much happier place.

PlopButNOPudding · 14/08/2012 21:14

Wow indeed.

There is a lot of inspiration there lala. Read and re-read. I thought these bits were particularly good.

how much easier it is to be a single parent, than to live with a man who doesn?t treat you as an equal human being with an equally important life and an equal requirement and entitlement, for leisure, rest, love and respect.

I hope that my example, means they never settle for a relationship which makes them unhappy, which doesn?t fulfil them, which drains their joy in life. I could never have done that for them, if I had lived with their father.

Every day my life is filled with joy and gratitude for the life I have: freedom to be me, freedom to have fun with my children (and without them), freedom to take lovers when I want to, freedom to arrange my social life the way I want to, freedom to live without a man exerting control over me or stunting my development as a human being.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats · 15/08/2012 01:09

Hey Lala, how are you today?

LalaDipsey · 15/08/2012 14:41

Ok. Dc been keeping me v busy so no time for a long post will update hopefully later if they goto sleep which they didn't last night
Session was good. H was textbook repentant. Didn't gaslight. Took responsibility.
I just kept saying I didn't have anything left. Couldn't go through the cycle again. Have agreed to go for more joint sessions after my single session next week. Both have agreed need a timescale for resolve (on H's part more than mine) or a permanent split. Am confused but not by him. By me. He says he's changed now. Will never behave like that again. I don't trust that but can't help hearing it and wondering.

OP posts:
NoWayNoHow · 15/08/2012 14:54

You poor thing, sounds like your DC didn't know you needed a good night's sleep!

Don't forget. He SAYS he's changed. He SAYS he'll never behave like that again. This is only a matter of days after his last gaslighting session, and it probably the ninth or tenth time he's SAID that.

What ACTION is he going to take to make it different this time? What's his plan for DOING it differently?

Don't trust it until he DEMONSTRATES a different attitude and approach. Until he DOES something different.

Actions speak louder than words

More true in your relationship than in anything else.

By the way, those aren't rhetorical questions - has he actually got a plan of action?

(a) When is he starting his own counselling sessions to address his inability to engage with his wife and family?
(b) Is he going to draw up a list of things that he will do around the house every single day off his own back, not written by you, without you asking?
(c) When is he going to his first alcoholics' support meeting?

lagartija · 15/08/2012 16:09

all mouth and no trousers if you ask me. We've heard all this many many times before, have we not? Words are cheap Lala and you are too easily swayed. Tell him to leave and sort his life out and then you'll think about more joint counselling. Otherwise it's just delaying the inevitable. I'm sorry I know you don't want to hear that.

lagartija · 15/08/2012 16:14

He's still drinking, isn't he?

RedMolly · 15/08/2012 16:15

Blimey lala. This is why nearly everyone on here has said don't go to joint counselling. You are back to focussing on whether the relationship has a future rather than ending it. Like NoWay says, words not deeds, yet again. You seem hellbent on 'just one more chance, maybe this time, if i just cling to this piece of wreckage'. Please put the focus back where it needs to be. You were sounding so strong and determined, and now you are confused and your resolve has been undermined yet again. Remember that he may still want to be your husband but he does not want to be a father.

RedMolly · 15/08/2012 16:19

Sorry - ds posted before i'd finished! If he is serious about changing he will do the work away from you. He will leave the house, give up drinking, go to separate counselling, and give you the space you need to think clearly, and give your dc a calm, safe environment. If he is not prepared to leave he will not do the rest. Sorry.

mathanxiety · 15/08/2012 18:37

Yep...

When is he moving out to give you the space you need?

When is he starting AA?

He still has his alcoholic hat on.
That all or nothing stuff ('He says he's changed now. Will never behave like that again.') is pure alcoholic speak.

SecrectFarleysNibbler · 15/08/2012 23:00

The problem here is that it is VERY difficult to believe that someone can change so radically in only a few days! He is saying to you that he can undo such ingrained behaviour and addiction and NEVER do or behave like that again - its just not going to happen. This new leaf he is proposing to make would require the biggest sea change of all time, a fundemental shift in his perception of:

What a relationship should be like
What a father should be like

If he could do this overnight then he, a. Knew all along how these roles should be but has never bothered to do it or b. undergone the equivalent of months of counselling to make the realisation and now be able to function appropriately or c. He is telling you want he thinks you want to hear in order to pull you back in.

I think you are treading very dangerous ground. Again it's all talk - its no skin off his nose to say these things. It hasn't cost him anything, for example agreeing to move out for a while to give you both space, actually going to get support for his drinking - doing it not talking about it. All that will happen is a few token gestures and a slide back to old ways when he will claim it's just a wobble and he will try harder next week and off you go agin.

Out of interest did you tell your cou seller that you post on here? I think you should at the very least have several sessions on your wn before going back to ny joint counselling.

NoWayNoHow · 16/08/2012 08:46

Morning, lala

I hope you're okay this morning. I know it must be so difficult to read all our posts when that tiny bit of hope is creeping back in for you.

Please remember - we're not here to hurt you. We're just objective bystanders who can see the wood for the trees, IYKWIM, whereas you are so emotionally tied up in this man that we all appreciate how confusing and hard it must be to unravel what's true and not true.

Please also remember - EVERYONE on this thread wants nothing but a bright and happy future for you and your DC, and (contrary to what happens in most MN posts Grin ) EVERYONE is in agreement about your H and his motivations for his current behaviour and empty promises.

We just don't want to you see you hurt any more by him than you already have been.

You're an incredible woman, so very strong, such a wonderful mother, and you deserve so much better than this half-life you're living.

(((hugs)))

Jux · 16/08/2012 10:15

Best case scenario: he never behaves badly again, never drinks, always helps, takes responsibility for himself, his environment, is children. Let's say that he can actually do that, forever. What does that mean for his behaviour up until now.

HE WAS LIKE THAT DELIBERATELY. CONSCIOUSLY.
He deliberately drank himself into a stupor.
He deliberately fell into rages.
He deliberately called your baby a fuckwit.
He deliberately threw your daughter around.
He deliberately threw tings at your baby and cut her.
He deliberately left you to take care of his 3 children with no help.
He deliberately treated you and the babies with contempt and dislike.
He deliberately let you become so deprived of sleep that you didn't know which way was up.
He deliberately lay in bed until 11am, not allowing you to even have a shower, while you ran yourself ragged.

Deliberately, Lala. Consciously. Planned.

Do you really want to be married to man who can choose to behave like that, and carry it through, for months?

So even if he does become this paragon, you will always know that he could choose to do that again whenever he wants to.

mummybussy · 16/08/2012 14:20

Well said...
Let's also put it this way. He has let you down at the point in your life when you've needed him the most, deliberately or not (more than likely was).
Can you ever forgive him for this? Can you ever imagine being intimate with him again? Can you imagine growing old with him? Holding his hand? Feeling safe with him?...I honestly don't think I could.
Why prolong things 'for the sake of trying' when the future won't ever be what you want it too?

PlopButNOPudding · 16/08/2012 16:09

This is from someone who can't even wipe down a bumbo without using it as an excuse to belittle you.

Do you really think all you deserve is an h who needs to have counselling in order to make his dc breakfast or read them a book?

Do you really think this is the best dad your dc deserve?

The cycle you are trapped in is this:
He is ALWAYS going to make theses promises.
He will make a meagre effort to please you, to keep you hanging and stop you walking out.
He WILL slip back into his old ways.
He blames you for this wobble, or convinces you that for some other reason it wasn't his fault and actually how hard done by he is.
You believe him think maybe it wasn't that bad afterall, or are wracked with guilt that you 'hurt him' You apologise, submit.
Each time he does this he's conditioning you to accept more and more abuse as acceptable behaviour.

It's not acceptable- it's just that- it's abuse.

You need to go to a counsellor ON YOUR OWN and tell them you are stuck in this cycle, it's chipped away your self-esteem and you need help to break out of it.

All of us here are saying the same thing.
We have either experienced this ourselves, or seen it happen to those we care about or we see it every day in a professional context. Tell the counsellor you have been given this advice and you need some help.

Ideally you need an extra RL support person- your mum of aunt or h's sister that you also tell about this cycle and your desire to break it.

Lala- also think about this another way. If this situation continues and the marriage continues- what if something happens to you? If you have an accident or are taken ill for a while or (god forbid) die?

Your h will be the PRIMARY CARER.

That is a truly chilling, horrifying thought.

This is not just about you and your relationship lala. This is about a whole family.

LalaDipsey · 16/08/2012 19:57

I know. And I know it seems like it's taking me forever but I am honestly moving forward all the time I think.
I have had lots of conversations with my mum about how I don't think I can ever forgive all that behaviour. And that I don't think I should forgive it either. I think all the spark and love has gone on my part. I know it therefore seems like I am prolonging the inevitable but I feel like I am getting gradually to learn my own mind again. It is hard to finally finally end it and we talked at counselling about how we needed a deadline to make a decision as couldn't go on like this for much longer and I am coming to terms with being the 'dumper'.
I don't want to be the 'dumper' but know it will be down to me.
I am sorting my head out, I promise. All your posts help.

OP posts:
RedMolly · 16/08/2012 20:15

I really don't want to sound discouraging, but so much of what you've posted recently doesn't suggest a separated couple in any sense. You're still living together, still wearing your wedding ring (albeit on the other hand), you're still washing his smalls, doing the chores etc. I really do understand how hard it is with the job he's done on you, and i'm glad you feel you're moving forward. But honestly? I think you've taken a fair few steps back. Joint counselling was a bad idea - i understood that it made sense though to have a safe place away from the dc to say how you felt and end it, but that hasn't happened. I hate posting about my family but did on the last thread for this reason only - days into weeks into months into years. Please, please don't lose the momentum you've built up.

Jux · 16/08/2012 20:16

You are going to have to be the dumper. That's not your fault, Lala, but if you don't, he certainly won't. As far as he's concerned, he's sitting pretty, so he has no reason to leave until he's pushed. He can even help out a bit from time to time to salve his conscience, while chucking in the odd bitchy comment to make you feel worse.

You know if you don't then you'll still be waiting next year, in five years, when your kids go to college......

NoWayNoHow · 16/08/2012 20:17

All in your own time, lala - this is your life, and you need to live it to your timetable.

I think we're all just worried because every day more he spends in your house and in your company is another day of opportunities for him to undermine you and mess with your head.

It would just be so much easier for you to gather yourself together for the future if he wasn't always there, standing in front of you, trying to trip you up.

mathanxiety · 16/08/2012 20:29

Lala, he says now he will change 100%, completely, absolutely -- and better still in front of an audience that he wants to conquer.

This is the same man who only a few days ago he said he needed a postit on his forehead and your 24/7 instructions in order to know what needed doing. And he still couldn't stop kicking you in the teeth as he 'helped'.

He is talking out his areshole.

Why do you need another deadline?

All you have to do is tell him it is now over. You keep on coming up to the brink and retreating. Deadlines aplenty have come and gone over the course of these threads.

Please call an end to this joint counselling charade and go to individual counselling yourself. YOU MUST find out and address what it is that is holding you back.

The only person who is stopping this process from moving on is you. YOU MUST find out why.

mathanxiety · 16/08/2012 20:29

You mention your love here in your recent posts.

What role does your love for him play here, in your opinion?