Shocked by my feelings of anger and contempt for DH

[Shadene]

We have a longish marriage (15 years) and have always treated each other with kindness and respect.

But this evening he suddenly told me that I shouldn't have mentioned to my brother how much he earns and that I'm not to tell anyone else. (I mentioned it to my brother in front of him in the context of a conversation about mortgage multiples - we are toying with the idea of buying a share of my mums home and developing it). He knows my brother well by the way - DB and I are quite close and they were friends before we married.

The thing that's freaked me out is how strong my reaction has been to him saying this. I feel FURIOUS with him and humiliated that he said this in ear shot of my 13 year old dd. She is really difficult at the moment and has made a point of trying to play us off against each other. She will bring it up next time we clash about anything as part of her general theme on the subject of what an embarrassment I am and how I'm always in the wrong about everything. Her behaviour towards me has been so abusive and nasty it's driven me into a depression. I'm so angry with DH about 'ticking me off' in front of her and making me feel like a child.

Also shocked by the contempt I feel towards him for being so fucking bourgeois.

I'm in bed alone crying. I'm upset by the strength of my feelings and don't know where this is coming from.

But it's not for you to decide how he feels about his finances really. That would be controlling. He obviously is uncomfortable, or he wouldn't have felt the need to tell you that he didn't like it.

Do you often feel like you can speak on his behalf about issues?

I think it is never a good idea to tell anyone how much you or your partner earn.

It always comes back to bite you in the bum, I once made the mistake of telling my best friend and brother what I earned. I thought we were all on more or less the same. Turns out I earned more. This was then constantly mentioned in a sarky way whenever a bill arrived, or if I bought clithes ( must be nice to earn thst much). Imo your dh was right in this respect.

About your daughter being so disrespectful, that s a HUGE but separate issue, that needs to be dealt with.

Clothes not clithes!,,

I've Pm-ed you, Shadene. Just saying, because I know that not everyone knows about the pm funtions.

I'm not sure what the answer is but I think you need to explain to your husband how it made you feel and how it matters in context of how you are being treated by your daughter.

You have a well paid part time job that you love and look after and provide a stable and loving home, unconditionally for your children. And I am quite sure you were confident that the decision you made to be the primary carer for your children was one you were absolutely sure of at the time and that most of you believes that it is still the right thing to do / have done. However, the comments your DH made and the ones your DD makes have obviously had a significant impact on you.

Sometimes, we have to take a little time out for ourselves, to remind us who we are as individuals and not simply in the context of being mother and wife. Your feelings are real and your hurt is normal and understandable. It does not mean you love anyone less, just that you are human and not a robot.

Find a space for you to explore your feelings and come out "fighting" and reassert you place in your home.

This lord and master bit is very silly imo. The op doesn't feel she should accept her dhs feelings because she doesn't understand. He isn't allowed an opinion on what family details are discussed. Who is controlling who?
I don't mean to have a go op. You clearly are having bad time. But turning this into he is controlling me, when in fact you are controlling his feelings. You could have had the conversation with your brother with amounts being involved. All he needed to know is you can afford it.

I would not be at all happy if DH disclosed my earnings without knowing in advance that I was ok with this and I believe he would feel the same way.

Much more importantly if having breached what I considered to be a confidence, DH dismissed my feelings as "naice" and "bourgeouis" rather than accepting it was something I was uncomfortable with I would think he was a knob.

In response to questions about why people feel uncomfortable about such things not being kept confidential, in part I would say that often people make judgements or have expectations about others when they know what they earn and I just prefer not to encourage this. I undoubtedly earn less than people think I do and DH (a "mere" taxi driver*) earns considerably more. Through circumstances rather than fault we have quite a lot of debt and I would not like people speculating about our lifestyle (whilst being frugal to pay off our debt in short order).

*in the eyes of my family

I think OP what you're not understanding is that for a lot of people how much they earn is very closely linked to self esteem so in some ways is just as intimate as penis size. I stayed off this thread as I was sure that your use of the term bourgeois showed that actually the money issue was pretty key to the disagreement, regardless of how you feel about your daughter. The bottom line is neither view is right or wrong but you had no right to take that decision away from him. I would be beyond furious if my DH told anyone my salary without my agreement because, as a PP has said, you really do never know how anyone will react. That information has the power to materially change relationships. That may be sad, but it is a fact.

OK, Shardene, I just want you to know that you have completely panned one of my lifestyle choices, and do you think you might be conveniently blaming 'boarding school' for perhaps what is your parents' lack? Maybe if you looked at your parents failings a bit more instead of boarding school, you might get a more realistic picture of patterns and dynamics etc. If your sister felt rejected and neglected, WHY did she feel so?

My children do go to boarding school, do not feel it as a rejection, actively prefer the structure and cameraderie and I do not get ANY of the behaviours you are struggling with - so tell me again what a terrible cruel choice I am making?

So, your grand statement: "I think teenagers need to be parented, and they don't get parenting while in institutional care." er... and how well is that working for you right now???

Shardene, if you want help, do try and be more receptive to what people are telling you and WHY they might be saying what they are saying. if you say H backs you up and is united in parenting, well, where does the problem lie?

There's no "like" button here, but I do like MistyB's post.

I know this is going to sound horribly, horribly hippy but it is true that much of life is really difficult and it is important to sometimes take a few moments to remind yourself of who you are, why you chose to do things a certain way and, by doing that, to affirm that you made your choices for th best, often with the well-being of others in mind and - really important this one - you are actually not making that bad a job of it.

It happens so rarely that we will get acknowledgement of our efforts, let alone congratulations. sometimes the only person that can do that for us is ourselves - and we are often the most unwilling people to do that.

Here are some for you, OP.

And stating that children do not get parenting whilst in institutional care, is ridiculous. The idealisation of 'mother' and 'father' (and the assumption that they are always the best for a child) is the last taboo of our society (Alice Miller).

I don't know whether you have ever heard of the African saying 'it takes a village to bring up a child', or examined those (and the Indian) wider communal family, but it turns out that it is these structures and NOT the Western nuclear family - that puts so much strain on two individuals - that is ideal for children to grow up in.

For instance, the close-knit English and Irish working class families living close by that celebrities describe growing up in - that money was tight but that they were so happy. As well as mum and dad there were grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins all around, communally sharing in the burden and the childcare, giving the parents both support and relieving the pressure. if mum is busy, the child can go to the aunt or uncle for the attention they need. This is the ideal family.

And this is the important detail that idealisation of 'parents' overlooks - it is the attention given in the moment that is important. Not which adult that gives it.

The unit under the most strain is actually the 'middle class' capitalist nuclear family unit - where there is lots of material possessions and not much else. These are the units that break down the most, because the individual has to be super-career, super-parent and super-provider with not a lot of wider support. That is such a strain on the individual. And I say that sympathetically by the way. The unit most attacked by capitalism, is the family, and that started with enclosure and the industrial revolution (oh dear, Wobbly is on a dissertation now!)

So, guess what modern child-centred boarding school does? It provides a safe support structure, the wider 'family' unit, brings in other adults to help with the parenting burden, and relieves the strain on the overburdened nuclear unit. If you come from a dysfunctional family, which I acknowledge I do, it means that, sadly, I have to buy the support I need. If I idealised my great mothering skills and said my family unit was perfect and my children had NO need of calmer, wider, more dispassionate guidance than my wonderful all-caring self, then, hmmm. The person I would be kidding, would be myself.

This has nothing to do with boarding schools! It's a railroader topic. I have lived on site and taught at a boarding school. For as many as it was a disaster for, it worked for others. Sorry abitwobbly but thus is a distraction to the OPs post... And not aBout how her post speaks to you re your choices.
Awaits ARSE kicking, but still thinking I'm right... (like THAT never happens on MN)

Agree I'm not sure how this thread ended up being about boarding schools!

Agree that the boarding school thing is irrelevant here - OP doesn't like them, others do, no problem.

OP, we may live in a society of conspicuous consumption, but personally I prefer the "English" way of being recitent about money. I don't tell people how much I earn or how much I spend. If someone asks directly how much something cost (eg an item of clothing), I'll answer them, but I would feel slightly uncomfortable and I'd never ask this question myself. Maybe it is prissy and naice and bourgeois, but as others have said it's not fair on your DH to do something that makes him uncomfortable just because you don't understand why it does.

However, I have a lot of sympathy with you re the issue of undervaluing yourself because you are not the main breadwinner. In preparation for the next time your DD says that "nothing in the house is yours because DH's salary pays for everything", can you and DH put your heads together and come up with a standard response that both of you will trot out again and again until she gets bored of her comment? Eg "In this household the income is joint, DH and I work equally hard for it and have an equal authority on how to spend it".

It wasn't, but Shardene made a very sweeping statement about something that is clearly a source of pain for her (and could very well be an issue in the way she relates to her own d), and I expanded the reasoning to help her think about it in a different way.
All the time she is blaming an institution, she is not looking at another institution - her family of origin, where a lot of learned behaviour is rooted.

Hope I made that clear.

The thing for me is after fifteen years of marriage I would have expected op to know her husbands feelings on discussion of financial affairs with people outside of the family unit. So either this has become an issue on the husbands behalf very recently or he has not been very good at letting the op know his core values for a very long time. Either way it does seem very odd.

I can quite understand your DH being upset that you told your DB what DH earned. Just because you dont feel it is private information doesnt make it better. Also in many families there is often some level of competition between siblings. Your DH may now feel that you have involved him in some sort of sibling rivalry.

Would you be happy if your DH discussed your sex life with his brother?

I consider both of these things to be private. Not rude, not dirty, just private.

Reasons for why either of these topics might be considered private:

• people make comparisons
• people make assumptions
• if it changes people will make assumptions
• the information is now open to be shared further

IMO you owe your DH an apology. Your DH owes you an apology for raising this in front of your DD.

how does the considering buying a share in the mother's house play into the whole not sharing specifics of income with family thing? Is the brother considering the same or already part owns the house/lives there/involved in the work of doing it up etc? Because if I was going to invest in something owned jointly with other family members I'd probably want to know more about their finances than I would if I wasn't considering have financial ties to them.

I wouldn't consider investing in something like that if the idea of family members knowing my salary horrified me that much.

Or the op may ignore his dislike of this as its not something that bothers her, or its the first time she has done this in front of him.

Here's the thing: OP, you say that whenever you have a row, daughter throws into your face the fact that nothing in the house is bought by you, and her dad's salary pays for everything.

But you said earlier how extremely peed off that he told you off about finances in front of her.

And here's where it confuses me: How does she know her father's salary pays for everything? How is a child of 13 aware of this? Since when was she privy to this sort of stuff? Does he tell her this?? Have you told her this?? If she's aware of all of this, then of course he'll tell you off in front of her - because she already knows too much about the household income as it is!

If he has told her about how you contribute very little, then he's being extremely disrespectful of you, and your role as main carer. I compromised on my career, and worked part time for years to bring up my kids whilst Twunt worked his way up the career ladder. And my job as full time mum, whilst working a couple of night shifts a week was a hell of a lot harder and more demanding than his.

"Do you often feel like you can speak on his behalf about issues?"

The discussion was about paying off my mum's equity release and developing the property to accommodate her and us separately. It inevitably ran on to the cost of doing this as we were talking specifics - whether it was feasible and whether we'd get a mortgage. I just said that with DH's salary and mine of about 15K we'd be able to get the mortgage of 160K with only a double multiple. I said this in response to my db raising the issue of mortgages now being hard to get.

Thankyou for your kind and thoughtful comments MistyB. You have identified some of my deeper and unspoken feelings.

"I think OP what you're not understanding is that for a lot of people how much they earn is very closely linked to self esteem"

I do understand this. I just thought my DH was above this sort of thing.

"do you think you might be conveniently blaming 'boarding school' for perhaps what is your parents' lack? Maybe if you looked at your parents failings a bit more instead of boarding school, you might get a more realistic picture of patterns and dynamics etc."

My parents were very loving and kind. But between the ages of 11 and 17 I only spent in total about three or four months a year in their company so there was a limit on how much parenting they could do. I'm in my 40's so this was in the days before cheap phone calls and email.

"If your sister felt rejected and neglected"

She was sent to a very expensive traditional girls boarding school where she was the youngest in the whole school. She was sent to coventry by her dormitory mates in the first term for having an afro and being fat, so went a whole 14 weeks with no one to talk to. She remembers coming home with a suitcase full of stinking uniform and matted hair - no one had helped her with any personal care or shown her any kindness in all that time. She'd cried herself to sleep every night. She said she made light of it to my parents, as I did later on when I was unhappy, because I sensed they so wanted it all to be good for us. I also went the whole way through school with out ever experiencing a cuddle or genuine interest or care from the adults who were supposed to be 'parenting' me.

I'm sure there are better schools now, but I'm just mindful of the fact that they are staffed by people who don't love your children, who may not even like them, and yet are supposed to be responsible for parenting them in your absence. As for communities and wider family being involved in parenting children - yes, this is true and this is important. My children have input from both sides of the family who live nearby, close relationships with their cousins and aunties, who they see every week. They also talk to neighbors and my friends who live around us. But that's NOT what they'd get in boarding school! They would be getting care from a very small number of adults who've been PAID to take on this role, just like children in care.

"what modern child-centred boarding school does? It provides a safe support structure, the wider 'family' unit, brings in other adults to help with the parenting burden"

What is the normal adult/child ratio in a boarding school where the adults are paid to parent your child (because you can be damn sure they wouldn't do it for nothing......)?

I remember we had a housemaster and his wife. And there were about 40 girls in the house I was in. I had no relationship of any closeness with any of the adults who were supposed to be looking after me at boarding school.

"my children had NO need of calmer, wider, more dispassionate guidance than my wonderful all-caring self, then, hmmm"

My dd needs more than I can provide at present, but that doesn't exempt me from my day to day job of parenting her. Luckily I get a lot of input and support from a very wise SIL and my own fantastic sister, as well as my mum. All of whom have known my dd from birth, and who love her.

Anyway, you are right that the discussion of boarding school has derailed the thread, so I'm going to stop posting on the topic now.

Again - thanks everyone for your comments. Lots of food for thought.

"And here's where it confuses me: How does she know her father's salary pays for everything? "

Well, she´s 13 & her father works ftime & her mother ptime-so it doesn´t take much for her to figure out that financially her father probably contributes more!

I just thought my DH was above this sort of thing. that says it all really. You look down on him/ anyone who feels this way. That this pov is something lesser people feel. Your db should have accepted, yes we can afford it and yes we can get the morgage. No need for figures.

Yes op, the attitude that you thought he was 'above that sort of thing' is really undermining of him actually.