Has anyone successfully lived with and raised kids with P when relationship effectively over?

[lostconfusedwhatnext]

Not sure ours is. If we didn?t have children I would be fantasising about running for the hills. We have 2 dcs, 3 and 1.
I am the breadwinner, DP looks after them. Money is tight (not that tight, but no luxuries), time is tight, everything feels very very tight.
The house is a mess but the dcs are very well looked after.

DP and I seem to have nothing to say to each other and sleep separately (he snores, I am always shattered and need sleep).
He cooks for the dcs before I get back and they eat without me and don?t leave anything for me. I did a mixed wash at the weekend and left the clothes drying on the clothes horse, he put away everything that belonged to the dcs and left mine there. I say these things not because I think he should be my domestic servant, but to show how completely separate he sees me. I don?t mind washing and cooking for myself but I would like to feel a little more included, regarded.
Last night we had a classic row where I got annoyed that things I keep trying to keep tidy by not putting in cupboards that the dcs pull things out of, had been put there, been pulled out, and lost. I spend my life tracking down bits of things and everything is still always lost and broken. We don?t have money to replace everything the dcs feel like playing with and losing / breaking bits of. I asked DP about it and he said I was over reacting and I over reacted to him interrupting me (closing me down, I felt) and went a bit mental and he lost it and shouted at me, cried, and flounced off to bed. I feel like I am not allowed to express things I know to be the truth, like I KNOW he put them in the low cupboard, but the convention is that I am supposed to say ?it was probably me and I hesitate to even mention it, but...? and then apologise for saying it. When I do this he just ignores what I have said. When I say (admittedly with some asperity) ?Please could you not put them in that cupboard, because they?ll get lost? he goes MENTAL.

Right now I don?t care if I never see him again. I need free childcare or I can?t support us. But this relationship is another job that I have to do, it tires me out, and I am still bad at it. Is it possible for us to just agree to differ and get on with our lives, in the same house?
If we break up I can?t afford to support the family. Also, it breaks my heart to think I might have to work like this and not even live with my girls. Destroys me. Tears are running down my face thinking about it.

I had to travel for work recently and I felt so guilty about leaving him for 3 nights with the kids alone. He said it was fine. Now I feel like telling him I have to go away for a night and just finding somewhere else to sleep just to get away from the pressure. I have started lying and that?s not like me. I didn?t tell him my work has offered us summer Friday afternoons off, because to get them you have to work 4 extra hours in the week and if I have to leave at 6.30 am rather than 7.30, in exchange for coming back to the house on Friday afternoons and having to hit the ground running with dinner, laundry, etc, then I think I will just break. I really will. I am so tired. I can?t believe I am saying this, but I am choosing to stay at work on Friday afternoons because I am too tired to get up an hour earlier.
I miss my dcs terribly and I am failing them.

mollydoggerson you are right, again spot on about the difficulty of seeing it from the other side
but he really doesn't see it from my side because he never had a baby, breastfed it, did much night stuff, or had a demanding job. he thinks I should demand more flexibility to be home for dinner. he worked for a quasi-charity, i work for an american media corporation. try telling an american media corporation you need to leave at 4 so you can be home for dinner. I really might be get let go all the time unless my work is up to scratch. he doesn't get it.
however as you point out i do think being out at a job leads you into the false mindset of thinking there are breaks to be had and you can forget the absolute howling tornado-ness of it.
I have thought about prison too! early nights, plenty of time to read, might be able to work out and get fit.... what's wrong with that?

he says I am a hypocrite. I don't think I am but I realise he doesn't see why, he doesn't see where the things he is trying to compare don't match (eg I want time alone to do some housework this weekend but he never expected that as the WOHP; but I am not blunt enough to say so meanly "that's because I had already done all the things I want to do now" even if I could get a word in edgeways. he thinks I despise him and saying things like that wouldn't help)

he's really upset but I just can't go to him because he will demand that I say he is perfect and everything that upsets me is nonsense. also he doesn't care when I am upset, when I am upset it is just taken as a mark of me being mental

maybe he doesn't want me to go down anyway he doesn't seem fond of me

not sure whether he resents me more for being here or not being here

lostconfused - re apathy, I was talking about you & your DH having nothing to say to each other, your DH treating you as a roommate (leaving your clothes on the hanger), you not caring if you don't see him again. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounded like apathy to me.

oh right yes I see. all got a lot worse than that now

"It is a shock that normal life can be so, so difficult."

Absolutely, molly. So very true. My partner and I both work full time and attempt to do equal childcare and housework. Much of our experience is akin to yours, OP. We are skint (through our own faults, mostly, though childcare costs equal to our mortgage don't help.). Our house is utterly disgusting. We are knackered much of the time. Our toddler is wonderful, hilarious and constantly demanding. Our teens are fabulous and very funny, if you like Beavis and Butthead with no off switch. Partner is extremely grumpy and depressed at times. I have a job that involves being sympathetic and kind to the punters I meet. I don't have much sympathy and kindness left for my poor partner by the time I'm home. Sex, money, energy, sunniness... all those things that make tough times that bit easier... all in short supply. So yes, I think that life, even in its lucky, everyone is alive and healthy and we should be very thankful and I am phases, can be pretty hard.

And yet and yet and yet. I would NEVER cook for myself and kids and not leave something for him. And I would be devastated if he did that to me and absolutely can't imagine it. We would never leave each other's laundry to be hung separately either. The pitiful amount of laundry that we do at all does not discriminate against anyone- everyone wears odd socks but no one has no socks, iyswim. If I was the only one not getting a portion of cold claggy pasta of a week night or if I had to scrabble around for knickers because mine were not being washed on principle (rather than because we are housework incompetents as is the case) I am not so sure I would be confident that we will get through this toddler teenager skinty mcginty phase and emerge still wanting to be together.

I feel for you OP. I am not sure what to advise but I feel you are not being treated with respect and that this goes beyond the difficulties of having a young family. I so hope you will find a way to talk properly to him and that things get better. xxxx

what did emerge last night in the row that came out of trying to talk:

he thinks I don't support him. He means I don't come home in time to do anything towards dinner and leave too soon to do anything towards breakfast. He means practical support. I can't help my work hours (he thinks I can) and I am earning a salary which supports us all. But he doesn't see it that way, he sees it as I bugger off and leave him to do everything, so this explains why he does nothing for me.

I was right not to tell him about the Friday afternoons because he would expect me to be out of bed at 5.30 to do more at home on Friday afternoons.

He is depressed I think. He says he is going to go to the dr about how he feels. (note that when I am depressed that means I am nuts and everything I say can be discounted; when he is depressed it is actually my fault and he is a noble victim)

I would still like to save this, more than last night. but I don't see how because: me seeing his point of view doesn't help. I see it, I certainly see parts of it, but I can't do anything about it because I am knackered and nearly broken and I can't change my work hours and I can't see how to find the strength to do more. He can't see my point of view because I am never allowed to finish a sentence (literally) and so there is a lot of stuff he just doesn't know and never will, like, how my company culls somebody once a week and everybody else has to work harder. I have never talked about work much, he visibly zones out. I think this is one of the things making me very lonely at the moment. I tried the other day and just stopped mid sentence to see what would happen, if he would turn to me and say, "hm?" to get to the end of the story, but he just carried on ignoring me and it was obvious he had switched off at the 4th word.

thanks scummymummy, that was a very thoughtful post.

He thinks he is a hero for doing what he does and I am doing nothing. Everyone else agrees that men who SAHP are SPECIAL and women who work probably have something wrong with them.

If I were at home nobody would be on my side. When I was doing it before he was so patronising as if I was pretending it was hard because I am weak and a bit mental.

I have a horrible headache and sore throat, this is going to be a hard hard day

I need to stop bfing and get some kind of drugs, legal, illegal, anything, this is not possible

My parents tried to do this and it was a disaster. Patents can't hide their unhappiness from their kids even if they try to, it's just there in the atmosphere. Both me and my sister have had issues with depression and when my parents spilt up when we were adults it was such a shock to have it all out in the open. It took us years to get over it. There is a whole book written about the effect of divorce when children have grown up.

Sorry just went back an read opening post properly. Sorry to hear you are going through this tough situation. How did you start living such separate lives? Do you think counseling could work?

"I would still like to save this but I don't see how because: me seeing his point of view doesn't help. I can't do anything about it because I am knackered and nearly broken and I can't change my work hours. He can't see my point of view because I am never allowed to finish a sentence (literally) and so there is a lot of stuff he just doesn't know and never will, like, how my company culls somebody once a week and everybody else has to work harder."

Mutual understanding will help hugely, even if neither of you can do anything to change the status quo.

For this, you have to find a way to get him to understand your POV. Write him a letter, if you can't get him to listen to you.

OP I feel so sad reading your posts. Sorry I can't think of any good advice but just to let you know I am thinking of you and wishing you the best.

I like CoteDAzur's idea of writing a letter. Maybe you could suggest that both of you writes one, as you are communicating so badly at the moment?

I mentioned the marriage course in an earlier post. There would probably be no waiting list, and in one of the sessions you specifically discuss the issue of interrupting your partner (one of my faults too )

In the letter, you could write down the things you really want to tell your partner.

Then maybe you could each finish with suggestions for: 3 things you could do (eg not criticise him), 3 things your partner could do (eg not interrupt you), and 3 things you could both do (eg respect each other's contribution to the household) that would help improve things. Then you could work down through the list of 18 ideas and see which ones you could agree to.

This may sound a bit ridiculous but the point I'm trying to make is a) avoid the letter turning into an unproductive rant and b) try to look at each other's POV and c) come up with some constructive suggestions agreed by both of you.

Thank you so much to everyone on this thread. it really helps to talk and to hear what you are all saying. I can see that I have been really babyishly negative in places and that is not constructive. but I am glad I have been letting guff like that out on here and not flinging it in dp's face.

I will talk to dp about the marriage course. he has been looking up where relate is and says he will phone them tomorrow. I think dp will be put off the marriage course by doing things with other couples (we live in a small place and there is always the possibility that you will bump into people in other contexts) but then again, I am being negative ahead of the fact again, amn't I, so I will raise it and see what he says. Anyway he is talking about relate so that is good, it means he is saying what I think and you all think: we need to learn to communicate.

once again thank you so very very much for listening and replying.

these precious little girls are so important, we really have to get this right

Well done, if you both want to go to relate seems to me you both want to try to fix it, that's a great start

Hi lost how are things going

Was following your thread OP last week, but didn't get chance to post. Just wondering how you are doing this week? Feel DH & I have similar feelings in a reverse of your roles. My DH is breadwinner. Think he feels excluded (though I hasten to add I do ALL the cooking, cleaning etc and always make his meals, do his washing, ironing and lots more besides). I feel taken forgranted. I do feel I have to keep trying all the time even if he isn't yet meeting me half way, for sake of our baby boy.

I hope you can work things out with or without a counsellor. You sound extremely stressed to me. I think if you went to the doctor's they would sign you off (though I know you wouldn't risk doing that). I recognise the need to tidy house to your standards. It's another stress to you and a loss of control that things aren't as you would have them. To him though, that's you saying that he is crap at his 'job'. As hard as it is, I think whilst you are under such pressure in your relationship and at work, forget about the house being untidy etc. I know that is easier said but you have to pick your battles or everything becomes a row. Believe me I feel like we're at war over everything a lot of the time! I did manage when I wasn't feeling so knackered the other day, to not get upset when he said the house was a mess (used worse language & actually our house isn't a mess. I've seen my friends' houses!) I asked him to specify what was annoying him and that I would try and sort it out. He hasn't come back to me about that so I think sometimes we say these things just to offload. It seemed to diffuse things me just offering to do that. Maybe, what he was saying really was that he wanted some support, even though I find that galling sometimes. It really doesn't help when it becomes a competition to see who is the most unappreciated/exhausted/doing the most etc. It so hard not to be like that. My DH will complain of tiredness and yet I haven't had a night's unbroken sleep in over a year and I do all of the night wakings with LO.

Often what we say and what we are wanting to really communicate are different things, and when the other person is stressed/exhausted we don't have the energy to decifer it.

Thinking of you.

Hello
just wanted to check in because I'm feeling very angry and lonely again.

Just deleted a huge long post. It's hard at the moment.
I'd like to go away, really away, for a while (who wouldn't, of course)

hello lost, how are you feeling today? Have you managed to sit down with your DH and discuss how you're feeling? I really hope things are better for you today. I know how difficult it is when you're battling your feelings with fulltime job/children etc.

I hope you are having a better day today OP.

I know only too well what it is like to live with someone who zones out, doesn't listen, cuts you off mid sentence & forgets what you say to them. I have coped with 14 years of this and only just recently has DP admitted the problem is his, he has difficulties with concentration, depression and memory. The problem is his but for many years I felt that I was unworthy, boring, unimportant and quite frankly a non-person.You are right also, that when you react or become emotional in order to get your point across, they then behave as though you have mortally wounded them. Counselling is really necessary, have you had any luck finding any?

DP and I have swapped roles a few times, we are without doubt happier with him at work and me at home and for many years I earned more than him.

hello morlando
no we haven't really talked. I am supposed to be getting some counselling soon, supposedly, a first session anyway for assessment.

I think the problem is I find it hard to move on. I feel like I have ptsd without actually having had any trauma (not meaning to be flippant to people who really have ptsd). My children were born with "good" births (although with one of them I had a 3rd degree tear) but I feel a bit dizzied and haunted and wiped out by it all... with 4 years of nausea followed by spd followed by birth followed by breastfeeding followed by more nausea, spd, etc... etc etc, much of the time having a very demanding job. dd2 was nearly 1 before she ever slept through and then I was back at work, and am still bfing.
It's relatively easy now on me, physically - very little bfing, hardly any twinges from the spd having finally got my physio, usually not too disturbed at nights. but somehow I can't get over - psychologically, not physically - the dizzying exhaustion I felt all the time with pregnancy and small babies. I think I am just being pathetic and unacknowledged. I did nothing but survive, and that barely, since the middle of 2008. Now - I don't know who I am and I feel unrespected and unacknowledged

I think this is stupid. I looked at online free "counselling" today and there is a lot of stuff about letting go, moving on, etc. I see the wisdom of this but I don't actually know how to do it

I always thought bfing was right and absolutely the best thing and now I think about the reality of having broken sleep for a total of well over a year, or more like 2 years including the pregnancy insomnia, and how dp has never had to make any attempt to live like that, and I wonder how we are ever going to undertand each other ever again. I am being petty I suppose but he just doesn't do what I do, will never have to. I mean the constant dizzy illness and desperation ... I wonder if it is really worth it from the dcs' point of view if this destroys us as a couple. I just can't bear it when he makes out he is hard done by when he sleeps 8 hours every fucking night and always has

hello mini, thank you for your thoughts too
I feel like a bitch for minding that the house is a mess but you know I actually feel literally depressed thinking that this is what life is going to be like. It's not the kids, it's him - he was always like it, everywhere he has ever lived has had every surface covered in detritus, untouched for months. I used to tidy up aruond him without even noticing but now I am out so much and have effectively lost control of the house I just can't, and I hate it. It doesn't feel like home. I got so upset last night when I saw one room that literally has months of used tissues in it. ("I don't have a bin". WTAF? use one in another room. Or get one!) Labels pulled off clothes and thrown on the floor. for weeks. water marks on oak furniture. This is my life now I just don't have the time or energy to manage the home environment and it's horrible. Not good for the girls, although their spaces are better

goodness lost we have a lot in common! I had third degree tear with my first dd and spd. Also had spd with my second - had lots of physio which didn't really help. Also have dd who thought sleeping was for wimps, has never slept through the day or night, though that is improving slowly...

I'm sorry to hear things aren't improving and that counselling is taking such a long time to work out. DH and I desperately need counselling (we have many many issues) and although I've made appointments with a consellor a couple of times have always had to cancel because either one or both of us can't get time off work, find childcare etc.

I hope you get something sorted soon.

"....4 years of nausea followed by spd followed by birth followed by breastfeeding followed by more nausea, spd, etc... etc etc, much of the time having a very demanding job"

Lost, I agree that many men simply don't realise how much pregnancy and breastfeeding takes out of you - and I didn't have a full time job to manage on top of that! I admire you so much, I really do.

But, if you want your marriage to work, which you have said a few times that you did, I do think you need to try and stop resenting him so much. Do you think you will feel able to "let go and move on" if you get to a point where you feel things are OK for you (even if they haven't been for the past 4 years)? Focus on how you and DP can support each other now.

Your DCs are still very young. These years are the hardest - you should see things starting to get easier soon, I promise!

It seems to me Lost that you have had to be incredibly strong and you have taken on almost all of the responsibility whilst your DP has sat back and played the woe is me card. Why can't he find a bin, why can't he tidy up? That is his job now, from the time he wakes until the time the kids go to sleep, his responsibility is to keep them and your home together so that you can work. That is what you would have done, so don't expect less from him.

I think you need to be really clear when you speak to him. Decide what you want for your girls and you and then speak to him. If you want to spend more time with them and you want him to take on some work, say so. If you want the house tidy and clean, give him a rota, make a deal with him and make him stick to it.

Because DP has a habit of blabbering and not listening and not always fully understanding ( i hate arguing too) I simply, flatly state what I expect, I write lists, we have a rota, I have a list of long term plans like what to do with the garden, when to clean out wheelie bin or car etc, it seems to work quite well. Tissues-on-table "There is five pound in the jar, buy a bin on the way home from the park and clear up these tissues will you, thanks" Be firm, be really assertive,be calm, you deserve much more support and respect than you currently get.

mrspepperpotty you are definitely right about the resentment, but this is how I feel. It's not that I did it that rankles so much, or what I do now, but that I do all this why he is allowed to persist in this belief that I am the weak partner, and has this unshakeable sense that I am pathetic and unreasonable.
i feel destroyed actually

Mini thanks for your perspective.

I'm not sure if there is any way back from the way I feel at the moment but I also feel that the way I feel at the moment is not one in which to make decisions. i am making crazy plans to visit a friend abroad, go away by myself, something like that... we can't afford it but we can't afford for me to be like this, I found myself fantasising about breaking my leg or getting appendicitis, then wondering how you could break your leg while definitely not doing worse damage (can't jump off something in case you break your back) or are there ways you can get a bug that might send you to hospital? then I thought, this is crazy, just book a couple of days off work and try to get some rest, don't be a burden on the nhs on top of everything else! but I don't know how to get some rest and I don't think dp sees the state that I am in as worthy of a rest, just me being pathetic and I should pull my weight

Lost, you are pulling your weight you are earning the money to look after your family. If you feel so tired and exhausted you need to rest but have you considered seeing the gp and explaining this to them. I felt dreadful for three years after having DS1, knocked out with constant tiredness, so tired it effected my mood and I was tearful at times. I actually had anaemia and it was amazing what the iron tablets did! I got up and ran around the park with the kids the next day! So it's worth checking.

Do you want to spend more time with your children? you say you miss them dreadfully, would you prefer to stay home and look after them?