Need to mull over a few things please: children and marriage.

[NeedaHealthyDoseofReality]

I may not be quick to respond as I'm working in the same room as DP today, but here goes.

Had a bit of an emotionally wringing 24 hrs: pregnancy scare (negative) so I decided to get DP's views on marriage/children. I have tried to start this conversation before (including before we moved in together - been together 2.5yrs and lived together for half that time) but he didn't want to talk about it beyond a vague 'that sounds nice/I don't know yet'. This time I didn't take no for an answer & told him it was unfair, after so long, to leave me hanging when he knew my feelings on the matter.

To me marriage is very important. Although we live together and I think living together is good preparation for marriage (so you can work out if you can work together for the rest of your lives) I do view marriage as essential (for me). I would also not have children outside of marriage (am not religious, it's just my personal view).

DP said that he would like us to have children, whenever we were in a settled position (I am job hunting and unemployed). However he doesn't think marriage is important and doesn't see the point in it. I know him well enough to know when he is open to change but his tone was definite.

I felt floored, TBH. With my first paycheck I was planning to buy him some cufflinks (have already found them and hidden the website address) and propose. I had no reason to think he was anti-marriage - all our friends are married (some recently) and he has never spoken negatively about it. Both our sets of parents got married etc etc.

He said marriage wouldn't change the way he behaves towards me and I said that was exactly why I wanted to marry him - to me he is perfect (I know it's vom but that's the way it is). He said he understood that but it didn't change his opinion.

So I don't know what to do. He doesn't know I was planning to propose. I'm not sure whether to tell him or not. Also, yesterday was fraught - I really had to push him to have this conversation. I'm the type of person who likes everything to come out at once, thrash it out then let it settle. He prefers to receive information, make his mind up over a (very long) period of time, then reach a decision. So emotionally I feel a bit worn out to have another talk with him today but also I recognise it's not fair, knowing what I do of his temperament, to push him so soon.

Is there anyone out there who has been through this and worked it out? I love him and don't want to lose him but marriage is so important to me that yesterday, whilst I was still in shock, I had several thoughts of 'this is it then'. I think I could cope with not having children, though it would be devastating and painful, but I could not live with him for the rest of my life and not get married. I did point out this was exactly why I tried to have this conversation before we moved in together and he seemed sorry that he had stonewalled me at that time.

Bump... I know it's long but does anyone have any experience please? Do I sit here for the next five, ten years and hope he changes his mind? I don't know what to do.

:(

Your feelings are completely valid and you're right to be worried I think. If marriage doesn't mean anything to him, why doesn't he go ahead with it to make you happy? If he claims he'll be with you forever, what does it matter whether you're married or not?

What's he like in general? What are his good and bad points?

I'm so sorry. I think it would be really foolish to wait and hope he changes his mind -- I think you have to take him at his word. It would be one thing if he said he wants to get married someday, but if he really never wants to get married or will never see the point in it, then you have to accept that is how he will feel going forward.

I know 2.5 years may seem like a long relationship investment, but it's not in the grand scheme of things (if what you want is to get married and stay with someone for decades). You can either stay with him and have a constant source of tension and emotional misery, or you can cut yourself loose and find someone who would love nothing more than to marry you.

It's not enough to love someone -- to be truly happy, you have to be compatible on the big issues, like marriage and children. However great he is, there is someone out there who is just as great AND more compatible with you.

Do you want to sit there for five or ten years hoping he changes his mind?

What will you do if he doesnt?

Forget waiting for him to change his mind. Yes, he might but do you want to put your whole future on a might? You are talking about not having children being devastating and painful, so that sounds like a dealbreaker to me. If you feel that way now, when there is no broodiness then imagine how you will feel when your biological clock is ticking. Imagine looking at him and thinking "Its your fault i am not having children".

You have to make a decision for yourself, on the information you have now not what might happen in the future.

Either you stay with him and accept that you will never marry, and therefore never have children
You can stay with him and accept that you will never marry, and compromise by having children without the wedding ring
You can leave and find someone who is looking for the same things as you in life.

How would he react if you told him that you were planning to propose? And if you told him you are considering leaving him?

Didn't want to leave this thread without answering, although I've not got direct experience my best friend is in a long term relationship and doesn't want to get married- she has always made it clear to her partner though although he would love to get married. She feels guilty herself in that she knows he wants to, but she just really doesn't, but is committed to him in every way.

How is your relationship in other aspects- does he show he is committed to you in other ways, or are there other issues?

IMO I think you need to have the chat and tell him how your feeling, openly and honestly and that he can't bury his head in the sand about this. Give yourself time afterwards to think about what you want- how important marriage is to you etc.

Hope your ok op x

I think this is a no-go.

i have posted this before.

I always wanted marriage and children and would have never had had children without being married.

I was with H. He proposed but only to shut me up as he never wanted to get married as his parents had a bitter divorce and I convinced myself that living with him was better than not having him. It so was not.

When I met MrFab I asked him then if he wanted to get married and have kids. He looked so I said he didn't have to marry me, I just didn't want to waste more time with someone who didn't want the same things as me. I didn't want to live with anyone again but circumstances intervened and we lived together for about a year in my flat and then our house before we got engaged and then married.

Don't settle. There is nothing wrong in wanting marriage and children. Don't make do with someone who is so far away from your ideal.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/1461622-OH-now-saying-he-doesnt-really-believe-in-marriage-er-not-sure-what-to-think-need-some-opinions read this thread

I would ask the question mentioned above too. "If you arent bothered about marriage then why wont you do it to make me happy?"

It could be, sadly, the old story of "I dont want to get married" meaning "I dont want to marry you" :( sorry.

Just to add, a good friend of mine stayed with a guy who didn't want children or marriage for ten years hoping he would change his mind and in the end had to split up with him over it. Luckily she met her now husband very quickly and has a gorgeous daughter but she wasted her entire 30s with this guy and is very angry at herself for not just moving on earlier, particularly as she feels now that her daughter will end up being an only child as she considers herself too old to have any more.

He has a right not to want to marry. You have a right to want to marry. If you're already shacked up with him, that takes a lot of the 'need' to get married away for him.. if I were giving my own DD advice when she's older, I'd advise her that if marriage is something she absolutely wants and is non-negotiable for her, then she shouldn't live with someone first.

On the other hand, if you don't mind going ahead and having kids with him without being married, go for it. Lots of people do. If you do that though, you need to protect yourself legally.

If he won't marry you and you want marriage, there's no real option but to leave him is there?

How old are you both, OP?

I disagree with the majority, he hasn't actually said he wants not to get married just that it isn't important and meaningful for him. I felt as your DP does but when DH proposed (marriage has always mattered to him) I knew it was his way of showing how much he loved me and therefore it was lovely. Had it not mattered to him either then we wouldn't be married and I would be just as happy. It is much like the way we decorate the house, I have strong feeling on, say, tiles and he genuinely doesn't care - so we get the tiles I like. You can't make marriage as a concept more important to him than being in a committed relationship but you can be important enough to him that he'll want to make you happy and be thrilled that you want to marry him.

If he is saying he wants to stay unmarried, even though it is important to you, then I think that is different. There is a difference between wanting different things that don't work together and one of you wanting something the other has no strong feelings about. I would also make sure that it isn't the actual idea of a wedding that is putting him off, if he is reluctant. Good luck, don't give up yet and don't put words in his mouth or make leaps (he wants to have children, so it is a jump to write them off, for example).

I say thank god you weren't pregnant...I put the cart before the horse so to speak...I got pregnant (planned) thinking we would get married and had twins by my partner. I proposed on leap day only to be turned down. Have felt completely devastated and he cites the same line as your partner, after counselling and general reinforcement of making a huge f*ck up I have asked my partner to leave as I can't be with someone who a) doesn't feel the same way about marriage and b) wouldn't do the marriage thing despite saying it would change nothing for him but he knows it would make me happy (and doesn't care how I feel about being turned down).
good luck

Wow, thank you all so much for your responses. You are mostly all vocalising what I'm thinking and then feeling bad for thinking, namely 'don't settle' and 'I'm too young to waste my life waiting'.

There is a substantial age difference, which fuelled my exasperation of yesterday - he is early forties and I'm mid twenties - as I refused to believe that someone could get to his age and 'not know' what they wanted, even vaguely. I did rather shoot myself in the foot by saying all I wanted was honesty from him, even if the answer was negative.

In all other respects he is wonderful: generous, funny, enthusiastic, shares my (very strong) political beliefs, does more than his 'share' (on a 50:50 basis) of the housework without complaining, picks me up when I'm struggling, tries to make me happy in so many ways. We enjoy the same films, activities, have a great circle of friends. He honestly couldn't care less about me being unemployed and him supporting me (I had a few problems with this at first as I've always been independent) - I could go out tomorrow, without asking, and blow loads of money on a shopping trip and he wouldn't say anything other than to compliment me on my purchases and maybe ask for my help with his business in return (he's self employed).

I don't know what he would do if I said I was planning to marry him. I am concious about how much he cares for me and am trying very hard not to be emotionally manipulative (fine line between sharing feelings and oversharing knowing the effect you will have). I think it would make him feel sad and possibly guilty.

If I followed my heart I could, possibly, imagine having children and no marriage but it would constantly eat away at me and I don't think that's healthy or bodes well for longevity.

Will go back and read some more posts now :)

He prefers to receive information, make his mind up over a (very long) period of time, then reach a decision.

It might be worth giving it a (short) amount of time for him to do that, now that you have made it clear where you stand on the matter. Set an internal deadline in your head (I would suggest a month) and don't bring it up. Then maybe go ahead and do the proposal, just be prepared that he may say no and you may have a decision to make.

Sorry, I mean 'planning to ask him to marry me'

Hmm.... well, as you say he is old enough to know what he wants, and I think he has made clear what he wants. Unfortunately it's not the same as what you want. Good luck with making a decision.

Having read everything I think what some of you are saying is right (and I hope I've interpreted what he said correctly): he said "I don't see the difference. I wouldn't treat you any differently if we were married, so I don't see the point in marriage." On the other hand he usually, as Runner says, goes with my opinion if he doesn't have strong opinions on something.

It also bothers me that I have discussed this with one of our closest friends (one of his closest friends before we got together) as I couldn't keep my excitement to myself. She also got excited and wished me luck - didn't see any problem with him saying yes... like many of our friends (I suspect) she sees it as a matter of time, now we have been together so long. That was another aspect that threw me - how could he keep such a strong view (his tone of voice was adamant) hidden from people he has known for 10yrs+ who have all got married. I don't understand why it wouldn't have come up at some point.

I know he is 100% committed to me. He doesn't have to say it (although he does) - I can see it in his face, which softens when he looks at me. I was so utterly convinced (still am, which is tearing me up inside) that he was the one. When I think about him I get that fierce stomach-clench-burn feeling that I've only ever had (don't take this the wrong way!) about my sister, who is younger and so I'm fiercely protective over and, until I met DP, I would say was the person I loved most and best in the world (obviously different types of love).

Perhaps I should say that I was planning on proposing, that marriage is pretty much non-negotiable for me and that I'll give it until the end of the summer for him to make his mind up.

The other issue, as someone mentioned protecting myself, is that I spent all my savings moving to be with him and taking my course away from home so at the moment I am utterly financially dependent on him. I could leave and go to my parents and they would support me but it would be much, much harder to break into my industry there. Not impossible but something I would have to be very certain I wanted to burn bridges if I did.

I am a bit at a man in his forties still acting like a man in his early twenties about marriage/babies etc! i assumed in fact that he was about 25 ish!

Has he been married before? does he has children already?

Tbh the fact that he is that age and still living like a young man would put me off alot as I dont see that he has really grown up.

You can't stay with him because of your career though. There is a lot to think about.

Are you planning on just telling him you are leaving and then going? If you gave an ultimatum would you always wonder if he did it to keep you or because he wanted to marry you?

I wonder if he is worried about what would happen if you split up and had to get divorced if he is older and maybe more well off financially.

If he is as lovely and committed as you say, then surely he would want to get married if he knew how important it was to you - it's not like he has views against marriage, he just doesn't see the point - well, now there is a point - it's important to you?!

Not been married before, no children (I asked this fairly early on... about six months in as, at first, I didn't realise how old he was). I was his first GF for eight years at least (he's not from this country, moved here for work and didn't get a GF until me).

He doesn't act like a young man in the sense of men my age now (i.e. 'lad culture', boozing etc.) but does act the carefree life - wants nice holidays, lie ins every weekend, good food, lots of trips out etc. I did point out the stark contrast as something I didn't want - we have friends without children who are planning an exotic Christmas holiday with another childless couple. To me, that's not Christmas - my ideal Christmas would be home, with family and children watching them unwrap presents and have a good time. I forgot to ask, at that point, which he'd choose although this year he is very happy to host my immediate family and have that style of celebration with them.

Are you absolutely sure he really wants children, OP, rather than just saying 'Oh yes that would be nice' when you bring it up? It's just that everything you say suggests that he is very happy with his nice life now with his younger girlfriend and has no desire to change anything.

He doesn't come across as a child to me, he comes across as one of those political people who have 'views' and live their life by them. I doubt he does see marriage as important.

Its a difficult one.

I remember a man I adored saying he adored me too, and could we have a marriage ceremony at Stonehenge - but if it stopped working one day then he'd go, obviously. I was gutted. I knew that level of commitment wasn't for me.

Some people are like that, others are not.

I think there are loads of lovely men you could love in your life and it is important for you to be happy within that love.

And get a part time job as well as your studies love. Maybe do that now, save a bit, just in case. V dangerous to be financially dependent on a man that one is planning to leave. Or considering leaving.

The more you write the less I think this is going to work out how you want it to :(

I think he likes things just as they are and will want to stay just as you are now :(