Need to mull over a few things please: children and marriage.

[NeedaHealthyDoseofReality]

I may not be quick to respond as I'm working in the same room as DP today, but here goes.

Had a bit of an emotionally wringing 24 hrs: pregnancy scare (negative) so I decided to get DP's views on marriage/children. I have tried to start this conversation before (including before we moved in together - been together 2.5yrs and lived together for half that time) but he didn't want to talk about it beyond a vague 'that sounds nice/I don't know yet'. This time I didn't take no for an answer & told him it was unfair, after so long, to leave me hanging when he knew my feelings on the matter.

To me marriage is very important. Although we live together and I think living together is good preparation for marriage (so you can work out if you can work together for the rest of your lives) I do view marriage as essential (for me). I would also not have children outside of marriage (am not religious, it's just my personal view).

DP said that he would like us to have children, whenever we were in a settled position (I am job hunting and unemployed). However he doesn't think marriage is important and doesn't see the point in it. I know him well enough to know when he is open to change but his tone was definite.

I felt floored, TBH. With my first paycheck I was planning to buy him some cufflinks (have already found them and hidden the website address) and propose. I had no reason to think he was anti-marriage - all our friends are married (some recently) and he has never spoken negatively about it. Both our sets of parents got married etc etc.

He said marriage wouldn't change the way he behaves towards me and I said that was exactly why I wanted to marry him - to me he is perfect (I know it's vom but that's the way it is). He said he understood that but it didn't change his opinion.

So I don't know what to do. He doesn't know I was planning to propose. I'm not sure whether to tell him or not. Also, yesterday was fraught - I really had to push him to have this conversation. I'm the type of person who likes everything to come out at once, thrash it out then let it settle. He prefers to receive information, make his mind up over a (very long) period of time, then reach a decision. So emotionally I feel a bit worn out to have another talk with him today but also I recognise it's not fair, knowing what I do of his temperament, to push him so soon.

Is there anyone out there who has been through this and worked it out? I love him and don't want to lose him but marriage is so important to me that yesterday, whilst I was still in shock, I had several thoughts of 'this is it then'. I think I could cope with not having children, though it would be devastating and painful, but I could not live with him for the rest of my life and not get married. I did point out this was exactly why I tried to have this conversation before we moved in together and he seemed sorry that he had stonewalled me at that time.

Look, you really need to play devils advocate with him. I really can't abide men who don't know what they want. I went out with a few, and they got dumped.
My now dh popped the question to me after a year together. I had it in my head, that, if he hadn't proposed to me after two years of being together, then he'd get the boot, as wasn't going to be with a man, who didn't want to spend the rest of his life with me. We got married a year later, and now have two gorgeous dd's (2y8mo and 11mo).
All I'm saying is, give yourself a time line in your head, and if he hasn't popped the question, or hinted as such, then move on, and find someone who does want to spend the rest of their life with you x

Ugh, he can't see you as a wife until you do all the housework? there are definitely better men out there.

Woke up this morning feeling really sad. Not tears, just quiet and deep sadness. He has made me so, so happy but (ironically, through watching his friends who are much older than my friends at home so have children) I have decided I do want children and I've always known I wanted marriage. I don't think I did a bad thing by moving in together as I stand by my idea that it's best to live together before marriage so you really know as much as possible what you're getting into and, conversely, if you need to get out.

I have taken the advice of a few of you and set a private deadline of our three year anniversary. That gives him plenty of time, covers all the awkward pre-arranged holidays and extended family activities (we've had two divorces in my family in the last six months, I don't think I could cope with splitting up with him and then attending the summer get-together) and, most importantly from my POV, is ample time for me to find some job in my field and secure myself financially.

Re: the housework. I tried to explain that I didn't do mind games, which he insisted it wasn't. He says I have to 'figure out for myself' what needs doing, that he doesn't want to tell me everything and, when I gave him examples (my parents actually - DF will ask DM to pick him up something and DM will ask retired DF [so fairly good parallel as he's at home all day] to clean the bathroom, or whatever). I think there's a hefty dose of he thinks our different cleaning standards are down to my immaturity ("I don't say anything because I try to imagine what I was like at your age" - at my age he was living with his parents and getting shouted at by his OCD Mum for not being clean enough... when she visited our flat was spotless yet she still criticised him [weirdly, not me - he is her favourite verbal punching bag, despite her traditional frame of mind] for being filthy). I will do more, not because he's asked me to (he said he wants us just to relax and then see if anything changes) but because I need to keep busy, I need to regain the person I was before my course finished and I had so much time on my hands. I had put off getting a Saturday job because it could clash with my desired job and I don't know where to go for casual work around here but I need to find something.

Thank you for all your advice and help. I know this is very one-sided getting it a) from me and b) in the clumsy descriptions I can provide - will never show the nuances, but it has helped me think a lot and pointed out some truths I was trying not to see.

Should just add, I actually don't think I'm immature for an adult. Partly because I know plenty of people much older than me who are immature but also because other (older) adults always express surprise at my age. Not that I'm a stick-in-the-mud but I can conduct myself properly when needed.

You don't sound immature, that's his issue not yours. His mother is a big red flag. Whether we like it or not, we're shaped by our early years and his don't sound especially healthy. This will be increasingly an issue if you stay together, especially if you have kids.

That whole thing about the cleaning and him telling you you have to figure out for yourself what needs doing, well it isn't really about cleaning is it? It points to a basic incompatibility. He's trying to make you be something you aren't in order to fit in with his perception of what you should be. I've been with someone like this and even though we're friends now, I'm so glad we finished cos I would've had a life of trying to match up to his deal... who needs that pressure!

There's someone out there for you who'll love you as you are, not as how they want you to be.

There's someone out there for you who'll love you as you are, not as how they want you to be.

I cannot escape the fact that he doesn't really like me 'as I am'. The more I dwell on it, the crosser I get at his little 'tests'. We had a second conversation last night, which led to my sadness of this morning and he listed three separate occasions where he had done something deliberately to 'test' whether or not I would clean it up. I mean, FFS! Maybe I'm more used to living with my family and other students but for the first twenty four years of my live I worked on the principle that if you make a mess or leave something out, you are responsible for cleaning it up, not the person who happens to be at home all day.

Live = life

and he listed three separate occasions where he had done something deliberately to 'test' whether or not I would clean it up. I mean, FFS!

Sweet Jebus that is beyond pathetic, I would be furious! Glad you see how completely off that is on every level....

It's not easy but it's time to cut ties here :( It'll work out for you, you sound like a good person....

Again, I don't like how he sees you. His perspective on you is warped: you're immature, irresponsible, lazy, you need to be tested, you don't pull your weight. He thinks that you as you are now are incapable of being fully independent- he keeps saying that he doesn't want to have to tell you what to do. He acts like you're a child he has to take care of. It's very wrong.

Hmm, the test thing is a real red flag. However - it sounds like you have made great progress in thinking about things, and your planned strategy sounds very sensible.

Thanks. Feeling a bit sick and anxious, I don't know why. Have been productive so far today - done some housework but more importantly sent CV & covering letter out to a contact who asked for it. Currently doing two job applications (agency posts so virtually identical forms for the same job in different parts of the region).

Was meant to be going out tonight with close friends but they have cancelled. Glad of it TBH as I don't know I could keep a straight face. DP kissed me goodbye when he left (he does every morning as normally I'm still in bed - I usually get up within twenty minutes of him leaving) but when I called him to tell him about tonight there was no warmth in either of our voices.

I couldn't sit there, watch him pour his heart out and then turn it all down. I just couldn't. Which leads me to conclude that he doesn't care as much as he says - he rebukes any suggestion that I bring forward (e.g. 'It doesn't seem like you want children/really care/will have any other opinion of me other than lazy') yet doesn't supplement his rebuttal with any input, even a simple 'I love you' :(

To the posters who asked what he gave up, the answer is very little. He was living with friends on a time-limited basis (recently married couple who wanted help with the rent and, although they love him dearly, they were grateful to get their space back) and the only inconvenience is some extra financial burden (which he doesn't care about - his answer to everything is just to buy me stuff that I neither need nor want) and some extra 'mess'. Compared to how I was in halls I am extremely tidy now and, since he knew me for a year when living in halls (how we met - I then moved back to my parents and job after uni), my level of housekeeping (clean but slightly messy) can hardly have come as a surprise.

Feel much better having written that all down! Back to job applications...

I wrote earlier that he seemed to be conducting a parent/child relationship here.

Look, you're far too young to be suffering all his demeaning crap; his testing you and his mother is a huge red flag. Living with her taught him a lot of damaging lessons. You will have emotional scars long term if you remain within this; such men take a long time to get over.

Run for the hills!

Re work and money, be realistic about your prospects. If it may be years - or never - before you're financially independent, then you should leave sharpish or risk feeling trapped for economic reasons.

If you're not working or studying but are supported financially, could you do internships, voluntary work in your field or whatever, to build experience and avoid being in the housewife role?

You may despise women who go after their husband's money, but may feel differently if you had children, were not married, and expected to look after the DC run the house / stop or never really start work (since presumably his salary would be bigger and yours would be presented as too small to cover childcare), then split up and you had v few legal rights.

His awful mum may be not criticising you because she regards you as what my gran would call a "bidey-in", ie temporary!

On the fertility front, male fertility decreases with age and think there is emerging evidence of fertility problems when men are over 45, even with a younger partner (eg not conceiving, reduced success rates for IVF, miscarriage, genetic conditions etc).

Hmm, he's mid 40s and has never come close to marrying. I can't see that changing, to be honest.

I can see a number of parallels with an ex boyfriend of mine, who was 10 years older than me and treated me like a child in some ways. Was good at the gestures, but actually, only if I behaved myself.
Don't like the sound of the "tests," or that he "kept you a secret" for 18 months. What was that all about?

The more of your posts I read on this thread, the more worrying he sounds. The little tests, and his exacting standards which you don't quite meet, make him come across as very controlling and it strikes me that whatever hoops you jump through for his approval, you will never quite be good enough for him to consider marrying and he will find something else to criticise. He will keep changing the goalposts to keep you in check. Doesn't sound like a good way to live :(

Good luck with the job applications - the sooner you can be earning and get out the better IMO.

No idea what the secrecy was about. I didn't question it at the time as he was my first relationship for four years and I felt very unsure of myself. I had an image in my head of him as the experienced person, yet I think we're on level pegging and I've certainly enjoyed more realistic/loving relationships than he has. Now I have the confidence to question something like that. I guess every relationship is a learning curve!

So much of this runs back to his mother and his issues with her (she is a vile, vile woman who thinks nothing of telling me how shit she thinks he is both in front of him and behind his back). However I have given him enough slack on that front, I think (his mother and my maternal GM are very similar so I used what I know, as an adult, of my Mum when dealing with him, e.g. what I could expect emotionally and what areas it's okay to push, or not, in). In some of the biggest respects he has changed - he used to be very physically closed off and his mother is not physically affectionate at all. My GM was the same so I used what my Mum had said (basically that my DF's family bombarded her with love until she grew used to returning hugs, voluntarily showing affection etc.) and he is totally open on that front - the change is a complete 180. The mental stuff just drives me up the wall though - I have no patience for mind games. He doesn't see them as mind games though, just normal.

I haven't given up 100% but in order for me to stay he will have to magically discover and honestly convey that he wants us to stay together. I doubt that will happen.

On the plus side I've just sent off another job application! By financially stable I mean with a regular, guaranteed income. I want to be able to at least offer him some repayment (e.g. my rent for the last two months) and be able to afford rent into the future.

This sounds to me like someone who has always structured his life around him and his wants and needs, possibly his work too. And it's too late to start changing that and he has no desire to. This is not the relationship of your life, OP. It's weighted strangely.
You would be better off getting out now as inevitably if it ends messily, there will be years wasted on both sides. That's so hard though, hardly anyone leaves a relationship if there's still any blood pumping through it, not unless they meet someone else.

I was in a very similar position and I wish I had left earlier. With the greatest of respect, you are probably too young to be sure about marriage anyway and he is too eccentric and selfish to crave it. That won't change. We can sometimes mistake eccentricity and dysfunction, when it's mixed with age and success, for status. It's not. The same behaviour in a guy your own age would be cause for head shaking 'he's just not that into you' shruggage and moving on.

Lots of truth in that Vander. He was used to working between 8am and 12am every day (with some breaks for meals, exercise and driving - his job covers the whole region) as he didn't have anyone else to consider.

He's currently half an hour late home with no text for ETA. I was meant to go for an exercise class tonight but the instructor is a friend - not close enough to confide in but close enough to notice. I think I'll cancel and go for a walk instead.

Sorry for all the posting today, I'm trying to burn off/channel the nervous energy. I think that's him on the stairs now.

vanderelsken: "We can sometimes mistake eccentricity and dysfunction, when it's mixed with age and success, for status."

Oh wow! That sums up my ex-b to a tee!