Need to mull over a few things please: children and marriage.

[NeedaHealthyDoseofReality]

I may not be quick to respond as I'm working in the same room as DP today, but here goes.

Had a bit of an emotionally wringing 24 hrs: pregnancy scare (negative) so I decided to get DP's views on marriage/children. I have tried to start this conversation before (including before we moved in together - been together 2.5yrs and lived together for half that time) but he didn't want to talk about it beyond a vague 'that sounds nice/I don't know yet'. This time I didn't take no for an answer & told him it was unfair, after so long, to leave me hanging when he knew my feelings on the matter.

To me marriage is very important. Although we live together and I think living together is good preparation for marriage (so you can work out if you can work together for the rest of your lives) I do view marriage as essential (for me). I would also not have children outside of marriage (am not religious, it's just my personal view).

DP said that he would like us to have children, whenever we were in a settled position (I am job hunting and unemployed). However he doesn't think marriage is important and doesn't see the point in it. I know him well enough to know when he is open to change but his tone was definite.

I felt floored, TBH. With my first paycheck I was planning to buy him some cufflinks (have already found them and hidden the website address) and propose. I had no reason to think he was anti-marriage - all our friends are married (some recently) and he has never spoken negatively about it. Both our sets of parents got married etc etc.

He said marriage wouldn't change the way he behaves towards me and I said that was exactly why I wanted to marry him - to me he is perfect (I know it's vom but that's the way it is). He said he understood that but it didn't change his opinion.

So I don't know what to do. He doesn't know I was planning to propose. I'm not sure whether to tell him or not. Also, yesterday was fraught - I really had to push him to have this conversation. I'm the type of person who likes everything to come out at once, thrash it out then let it settle. He prefers to receive information, make his mind up over a (very long) period of time, then reach a decision. So emotionally I feel a bit worn out to have another talk with him today but also I recognise it's not fair, knowing what I do of his temperament, to push him so soon.

Is there anyone out there who has been through this and worked it out? I love him and don't want to lose him but marriage is so important to me that yesterday, whilst I was still in shock, I had several thoughts of 'this is it then'. I think I could cope with not having children, though it would be devastating and painful, but I could not live with him for the rest of my life and not get married. I did point out this was exactly why I tried to have this conversation before we moved in together and he seemed sorry that he had stonewalled me at that time.

To me it doesn't sound like he wants to be a parent either. He enjoys the lifestyle you have now and yes with you because at the moment you are happy having this lifestyle.

I think long term he will not marriage because he doesn't not want a family ie dc, sorry

Yes. There are people like that, I know several of them in fact. Bright, interesting people, living independent lives, going out, working, being good friends and partners. But if you want marriage and babies and he does not, it is sad but best to part ways - and then become friends down the line. Plenty of room for more decent friends in one's life.

And you will meet a man who gets gooey over the idea of you getting pregnant and will stroke your belly and so on. If that's what you want, go and get it. Period of time to mourn, then off you go.

This is so difficult. I really wish I could find a job instantly, it would take a lot of stress away! I don't want to give away what industry it is as it would out me instantly (have some RL friends on MN) as it's an unusual one for a woman to choose. I have been advised to concentrate just on finding a job in this industry, to the exclusion (as far as financially possible) of a part time job as it's so hard to get in and I need 'relevant' work experience, not the stuff I'm used to doing (shelf stacking etc.).

I was, being brutally honest, surprised when he said he wanted DC. We need to have this conversation and I want it to happen today. I can't sit here for a week or more thinking 'What if?' and then find out I'm fucked.

It's very hard to reconcile the image I have of him, composed of all the wonderful things he does, with the things he says. I've given you all the things he says and you've reached the conclusion (which I have sort of been suspecting) that he doesn't want marriage or DC. OTOH he is so wonderful with our friends' DC, so patient and really cares for them.

He's out at the minute so I'll think about what to say and sit him down when he's back.

This is quite a difficult one in view of your ages as I think that is quite important if you're thinking of family. If you were both early forties I'd say untimatum if you want a family, or if you were both mid twenties I'd say plenty of time. But now he is early forties and still doesn't want to settle down (I know that's a horrible phrase)

I am pro-marriage myself but if not being married works perfectly well for two people then that's great. But the difficulties come when one wants to get married and the other doesn't. But if you do decide to call it a day make sure it's really what you want. As no point in regretting it later. And there is the good point that if he is perfectly happy with the status quo why should he want to change anything.

Some people have a deep seated fear that marriage will doom their relationship. It doesn't mean they can't commit to the idea of spending a lifetime with someone - it just means they are spooked by the idea of marriage, and they don't want to have to make a solemn promise that, frankly, none of us know for sure we can keep, however much we might hope we can.

I understand that is is important to you, and the bit about not having babies outside marriage - that was veyr important to me too. But over the years I have had several friends in great, very committed long term relationships which look set to last forever, and a very happy family unit, and then I've had other friends whose marriages have broken up - and boy, have there been plenty of those.

If I knew twenty years ago what I know now I am not saying I wouldn't have bothered to marry - just that if DH had not been keen I would no have taken it personally. Really, it is not the be all and end all of proving he loves you.

I really don't think there can be any benefit at all in proposing to him or putting him on the spot when you know damn well he is uncomfortable about the whole idea. No-one should be pressured to marry out of guilt. It will just backfire on you.

Having said all that, only you can know deep down whether you have complete confidence that he is totally committed to the relationship, or whether he is hedging his bets and buying himself some time beofre he eventually moves on. If you have a nagging feeling in your gut that his reluctance to marry is about a lack of confidence in the relationship rather than a lack of confidence in the contract of marriage then you have some serious thinking to do. Whatever you do, do not think you can force his hand by having any more accidental slip-ups with the birth control. That would be a very very bad idea.

Ack. Ignore my use of 'sort of'. Appalling English.

How someone is with someone elses kids can't be taken as whether someone wants or doesn't want kids for themselves.

No personal exp but I'm going to suggest something that will put your heart on the line.
Why not propose to him as you were planning to before and give him the option of accepting or declining your proposal.

If he says 'no' then I think you will know what you need to do or at least much more than you do right now
Yes there is the chance he'll say no and you may feel rejected but wouldn't you feel that way anyway, if you decide to leave now?

Ask and find would but be my advice. It might not be as black and white as you think.
He could say yes

Thanks Hilly. I would feel far worse about forcing him to do anything or emotionally blackmailing than I would about us splitting up - it wouldn't end well anyway, I wouldn't have what I want (which is him, openly and happily agreeing to marriage) and it would end even more messily than it would if it ended right now.

Although I do feel compelled to point out that the accident was genuinely an accident - I despise (and I don't think that's too strong) women who trap/try to trap men by sabotaging the birth control.

Is it at all possible that he has been married before wherever he's from and doesn't want to marry because he never divorced?

...I would also weigh up the pros and cons of why marriage is so important to you, as you say it's not for religious reasons - is it a feeling you have, or is for family reasons? We don't need to know why, but you do.

If it is just marriage that is stopping you from having what you want with this man, then you have to ask yourself are my reasons strong enough?

IME the biggest reason older men have for saying marriage 'isn't important' is because they know that if they marry you and it doesn't work out, you can walk off with half their stuff. They dress it up with things like 'it's just a bit of paper' or 'I'm not the conventional type' or 'it wouldn't change how I felt about you' but that's not usually what they really mean. Here's a test... mention a pre-nup and see if he bites. :)

Definitely not married before - I have met his awful mother and all his schoolfriends/home friends... most of whom gave him an absolute ribbing for a) keeping me a secret (they thought we [at the time] had been together six months instead of two years) and b) not telling them my age. All of them are the same age as him or max. five years younger.

Cogito I thought about mentioning a pre-nup. I couldn't care less about his money. It enables me, if I'm honest, to enjoy a nicer style of living that the one I grew up with, but in the long term I aim to be earning as least as much as him so it makes no odds. I also believe that everything he had before we starting sharing stuff (we have a joint acc.) is his and wholly his - I don't understand why on earth I would be 'entitled' to any of it.

However, how on earth do I phrase 'all I want to do is marry you and spend the rest of my life with you, if you want a pre-nup, I'll do it' without sounding like I'm only thinking about pre-nups because secretly I want his money? If you have any ideas on phrasing I'm all ears!

Tell him exactly that, straight-forward.
Like you say, you've had conversations about marriage so no point in beating around the bush.

What do you get out of this relationship now?. To me you've given up a lot, what has he given up exactly?. He gets what he wants out of this and you are a lot younger than him as well. I sincerely hope he does not see you as the trophy girlfriend to parade around.

If marriage is important to you do not compromise on that principle. It is not just a piece of paper. If you want to bring up children within marriage then all well and good, there are men out there who are not all commitment phobic.

Ensure too that your contraception is good; you do not want any more pregnancy scares.

I do not think he will marry you ultimately, he does not want marriage. Saying to you its no point is an excuse and a poor one at that. There are reasons why he is saying this. He is not taking your interests into account here and your concerns are valid. I would also put it to him that a future and potential legal position as his unmarried partner with or without children is poor (he likely knows that as well) and that cohabitation splits can be just as messy, emotionally painful, drawn out and protracted.

In law what is his is his and what is yours is yours.

Did he know about the PG scare, and if so how did he react? His attitude to that would be far more telling in my eyes than his views on marriage. TBH if he is enthusiastic about the idea of having children some time in the not to distant future, and happy to discuss it, and you feel that the relationship is as strong as it could be then personally I would back down on the insistence on marriage - why throw a perfectly good baby out with the bathwater, just on a principle?

If though, (given that he is already over 40) he is cagey about discussing having children in any given time frame then I would start to hear alarm bells. But you are so young you still have plenty of time to figure this out.

"If you have any ideas on phrasing I'm all ears! "

I'd put it very simply. Is the reason you don't want to marry me because you think I'm going to do a 'Heather Mills'?

You are a trophy girlfriend. He is using you to boost his own ego. He is not a life partner. Please don't throw your life away on this manboy.

It's hard, isn't it? I was in exactly your situation with my ex boyfriend of 7 years. We would discuss marriage, and he'd say "We'll talk about after Christmas/ Easter/ the holiday/ summer...."

I realised I didn't want to hang around any longer waiting for him to suddenly see the light and propose. He was (is) a lovely guy, but it was obvious we wanted different things. He too was amenable to children, just not marriage!

Eventually I left him. He claimed to be devastated, but got a new girlfriend a few months later. I waited, prepared for him to announce his engagement to her within months, but it never happened. 12+ years later they are still together and have a child, but they are not married. I met DH a year later, we were married 2 years later. So it worked out for everyone. I truly believe that some incompatibilities regarding commitment can be deal breakers.

I don't think the OP is a trophy girlfriend and that is mean to the man here. They may just like each other you know!!

Why did he keep you a secret for so long tho?

I would feel very tentative about asking him to marry me. I think both people have to want that. I think that pushing men into marriage is a recipe for disaster. There will be men who love you and men who do not. Ime it is always better to go with a man you KNOW loves you and thinks you rock. The rest of them, great guys they may be, but in the end, a girl needs a partner who loves her as much as she loves him.

I think he's going to be shocked by what you have to say OP. I think say it nicely and simply, and let him have space and time to think, and you try not to look out the window too much at life going by over the next few weeks!

Just spoken to him. Children issue isn't a problem: his reaction upon telling him that I thought I needed to get a test was "Don't worry, whatever happens it'll be fine". We were both relieved when it was negative.

He came out with some thoughts that were honest, but upsetting. He said he's not anti-marriage but doesn't feel I'm pulling my weight as he works all week but we do half of the housework each. I do other things, like he asks me to organise our 'time off', e.g. I spent two days (and gave myself a migraine) trying to sort out a summer holiday that met my budget and his style approval and I do all the food shopping, plan all meals but he says I need to figure out for myself what a responsible balance is and he doesn't want to spend the rest of our lives telling me what needs doing. I think he wants me to do all the housework as I'm not working (he has a point - I sometimes don't know what I've done in a day and that has been getting me down as I'm used to being busy, working and proactive). OTOH I think his way of pointing out he thinks hoovering needs doing (getting out the hoover and leaving it on the floor until I get the hint, which never happens as I'm used to the person who gets the hoover out does the hoovering and puts it back) is a bit too 'mind games' for me.

He feels that until I 'pull my weight' (I accept I could and should probably do more but I don't like having an undefined point at which this is) he doesn't feel ready to go any further.

I did say that I'm fed up of him not telling me he's feeling like this until I force some major issue and then he sits there in silence for half an hour whilst I explain my feelings and ask him for some feedback, at which point he does some more silent sitting then suddenly explodes about how lazy he thinks I am and how irresponsible I am and therefore he doesn't want to discuss the matter I've brought up. This time he didn't say I was lazy - I have been consciously trying to pull my weight in the last two months (since my course finished), but apparently it's not enough. This has happened maybe five or six times in total in the whole of our relationship.

It sounds really bad when I lay it out like that (his way of dealing with it rather than his points as if he feels I should do more than 50% when looking for work then fine, I accept that and will do more). I don't know. TBH I want to spend this afternoon a bit more proactively as he's gone out for a walk now and won't be happy if he gets back and I've done nothing but go on MN.

He sounds a bit like a man child he won't talk to you, he won't say to you one evening "have you got much planned for the next few days? If not please would you sort out the house so we can chill in the evenings and weekend rather than doing the housework between us"

The fact that a 40 year old is playing mind games is just

I think you both have someway to go on sorting out your communication issues before either marriage or children are considered...

He doesn't sound like someone nice to be with.

DH and I have never had a discussion about who does what. He goes out to work. I stay at home looking after the kids, house, animals. I do what I feel like doing and he does what needs doing when he gets home if he feels like it. I have done nothing today as I have been in bed resting but he won't hold it against me ever. Just as I did loads yesterday while he was out on the lake.

Sorry, this does not sound good to me. If you are mid twenties and like guys in their early forties to be honest I think you will have a lot of men to choose from after you dump this one.