Need to mull over a few things please: children and marriage.

[NeedaHealthyDoseofReality]

I may not be quick to respond as I'm working in the same room as DP today, but here goes.

Had a bit of an emotionally wringing 24 hrs: pregnancy scare (negative) so I decided to get DP's views on marriage/children. I have tried to start this conversation before (including before we moved in together - been together 2.5yrs and lived together for half that time) but he didn't want to talk about it beyond a vague 'that sounds nice/I don't know yet'. This time I didn't take no for an answer & told him it was unfair, after so long, to leave me hanging when he knew my feelings on the matter.

To me marriage is very important. Although we live together and I think living together is good preparation for marriage (so you can work out if you can work together for the rest of your lives) I do view marriage as essential (for me). I would also not have children outside of marriage (am not religious, it's just my personal view).

DP said that he would like us to have children, whenever we were in a settled position (I am job hunting and unemployed). However he doesn't think marriage is important and doesn't see the point in it. I know him well enough to know when he is open to change but his tone was definite.

I felt floored, TBH. With my first paycheck I was planning to buy him some cufflinks (have already found them and hidden the website address) and propose. I had no reason to think he was anti-marriage - all our friends are married (some recently) and he has never spoken negatively about it. Both our sets of parents got married etc etc.

He said marriage wouldn't change the way he behaves towards me and I said that was exactly why I wanted to marry him - to me he is perfect (I know it's vom but that's the way it is). He said he understood that but it didn't change his opinion.

So I don't know what to do. He doesn't know I was planning to propose. I'm not sure whether to tell him or not. Also, yesterday was fraught - I really had to push him to have this conversation. I'm the type of person who likes everything to come out at once, thrash it out then let it settle. He prefers to receive information, make his mind up over a (very long) period of time, then reach a decision. So emotionally I feel a bit worn out to have another talk with him today but also I recognise it's not fair, knowing what I do of his temperament, to push him so soon.

Is there anyone out there who has been through this and worked it out? I love him and don't want to lose him but marriage is so important to me that yesterday, whilst I was still in shock, I had several thoughts of 'this is it then'. I think I could cope with not having children, though it would be devastating and painful, but I could not live with him for the rest of my life and not get married. I did point out this was exactly why I tried to have this conversation before we moved in together and he seemed sorry that he had stonewalled me at that time.

Hmm. I am now thinking he is one of those guys who is still single because he has very exacting standards and finds it hard to live with compromise and any element of disorganisation that is not his own choice or of his own doing. Maybe he is finding it tricky to deal with living with you while you are at home all day.

Having said that, I do think he has a pretty good point about the house, if you have no children to care for, have all day free while he works, and are not currently contributing to the finances either. Fair's fair and all that. If this thread had a gender reversal to it people would be crying cocklodger by now! sorry I don't mean that to sound unkind, but it's true.

"Just spoken to him. Children issue isn't a problem: his reaction upon telling him that I thought I needed to get a test was "Don't worry, whatever happens it'll be fine". We were both relieved when it was negative".

That says an awful lot doesn't it. Thank goodness you are not pregnant actually because he'd be no father to his child and neither of you are anywhere near ready to have a baby. He's more than happy to have sex with you but not marriage. Stop settling for this overall poor state of affairs.

His attitude towards you re chores seems to me like he's the parent and you are the child. As for him wanting to "pull your weight" before deigning to go further, who died and made him king exactly?. You seem to be either seeking or looking for his approval all the time; there is a serious power imbalance here with him holding all the cards. This is not a relationship of equals is it?. I do not like his version of mindgames either. Manchild is about right as a description for him.

re this comment:-

"OTOH I think his way of pointing out he thinks hoovering needs doing (getting out the hoover and leaving it on the floor until I get the hint, which never happens as I'm used to the person who gets the hoover out does the hoovering and puts it back) is a bit too 'mind games' for me".

Yes it is, as well as being passive aggressive.

Sorry OP, I don't like the sound of your last post at all. You wanted a conversation about big issues like marriage and children and he turned it into an opportunity to have a go at you for not doing the hoovering? Wtf? Even if he has a point, those are two different discussions! It sounds like he's trying to make it your fault that he won't propose?

Move out.

If he really doesn't think marriage is important and does think that you are important to him, he will agree to get married when he sees how non-negotiable it is to you.

If he is willing to lose you and doesn't agree to marry even if it means you will split then he isn't the man for you anyway.

But only do this if you are willing to lose him. It is not a blackmail tool. It is a way of clarifying your and his beliefs.

In the future, if marriage is so important for you, you should never move in with a man unless the wedding is already arranged. That way you will know from the start what his intentions are, before years of living together makes splitting up so hard.

I think he is working out how much he likes her and whether he can live with her, forever. If it were the other way round, and he expected me to do everything, and I was sort of doing so cos he wasn't doing it, would I want to rush into a commitment with him? No.

I think it is dangerous when one works and the other doesn't.

Blimey OP.

I really don't think you are onto a good thing here. Think back to your earlier statement 'I could go out and blow loads of money and he wouldn't do anything except compliment me'. Well clearly that isn't the case - there is a mental tally going here of how much money you are 'costing' him, and he obviously intends to present you with the bill in some way at some point.

something2say you are right in that I think he is trying to see if he can live with me. Ten years living by yourself, plus his natural tendency to be tidy (reinforced by his mother whose standards are, by any definition above and beyond my own, excessive - even he says they are excessive).

I am trying very hard not to be a cocklodger (or whatever the female equivalent is, I suspect golddigger). He is by no means doing everything. I do the laundry, the meal planning/food buying, majority of the cooking (90%), clean the bathrooms 3/4 times, change the sheets etc. I also try and get in some breakfast for him, else he doesn't eat it. I load and mostly empty the dishwasher.

He does all the washing up (ten years of catering = I fucking hate the washing up), the hoovering and the little shares leftover from the list above. He also puts his own socks and pants away because he has a chronological filing system based on when they were worn that I, frankly, CBA to do.

Looking at that list, it should not be complicated! I did not like the way he twisted the conversation. There was something else I meant to say but forgot. Anyway, we'll see.

Thanks for your responses this afternoon, they have helped me think things over.

I can't help thinking that if this was the other way around there would be lots of shouts of 'no don't think of marrying him....he has no job, he does not pull his weight around the house etc etc.'

No, Ali, I'm the one keeping a total. He doesn't care - I even brought up the prenup thing in our conversation and he was hurt I'd even think that. He's comfortable enough that money doesn't mean anything to him, whereas I've had to always watch the pennies carefully so I am painfully concious of money we spend. I do have a little file where I'm writing it down so I can repay some kind of approximation into our joint account (through absolutely no fault of my own I had to extend my course by two months so my savings ran out bang on target but without leaving me money to support myself whilst job hunting). I have always tried to divide everything by half, even though he's a top-rate taxpayer and I haven't exceeded my tax-free sum for the year. To reiterate, I absolutely do not want to come across as a golddigger.

I must say it is cause for concern if you are not working and at home all day, while he earns all the money. But from what you have said he does not resent this. Op have you ever had a job. And really, what are the realistic chances of you getting a job in the exact field you want to be in. And if you did have children would you work.

And I think the posters have got a point when they say if you get married and it doesn't work out after a year or two then you walk away with half of everything plus maintenance. Perhaps this is what he is afraid of.

He sounds awful. He sounds like a parent or even a flat mate. You are far too young to be in the one-sided relationship. He sounds like he is using you too be honest. There are so many lovely men your age. Dont waste anymore time with him. I doubt if he really wants children and he really doesn't sound like he wants an equal partner. Sorry.

He sounds resentful about something and he also seems to be a very bad communicator. Maybe it is not the housework, since you seem to be doing nearly all of it, it might he something else and he is deflecting.

If it is the housework he might just be one of those people who has very high standards (not me!) and your efforts are not meeting them...in which case he needs to bloody well say so.

This strange way of communicating, where you have to guess what is going on, sounds exhausting. Is this really what you want at your age?

Mary maybe you missed my last post where I said I'd worked constantly from the age of fifteen until we moved in together just over a year ago? Prior to moving in I had three part-time jobs (they fit together well as aspects were seasonal etc.). I gave up work and used my remaining savings to study for the best mark possible, thinking that would help in the future. I am applying for everything in my field but until Friday there were only two jobs being advertised in the region in that field - I live in a very economically depressed area and all his work is based here, so we stay. Once I get a foot in the door he is open to moving but has, quite rightly, pointed out that we can't both be jobless at the same time in the hope that I will find something in an area we both don't know.

Sorry I did miss it. Not sure what to suggest. Hope you work it out. Be happy that's the main thing!

I have two friends who wanted to marry their male DPs and the menfolk were reluctant. Both hung around and waited until their mid-thirties.

One of the chaps decided to get married. They are now happily married and have three DC.

One never changed his mind. She left him in her late thirties, did fortunately meet someone else, had lots of IVF etc but no joy.

Make of that what you will. I suppose I'm trying to say that you are gambling.

" - I have been consciously trying to pull my weight in the last two months (since my course finished), but apparently it's not enough. This has happened maybe five or six times in total in the whole of our relationship."

"I want to spend this afternoon a bit more proactively as he's gone out for a walk now and won't be happy if he gets back and I've done nothing but go on MN. "

Sounds like you'll never be able to do enough to satisfy him in this area. These two parts made me feel a bit uneasy on your behalf. It sounds like you gave up a lot to move in with him, and now that you've done so he's got these really high standards you now have to meet, and you're not able to say anything as you aren't working (because you gave up your jobs to be with him). You're in a rather vulnerable position here.

For someone that says he doesn't want to spend the rest of your time together telling you what needs to be doing he does an awful lot of it and has a lot to say about how you aren't meeting standards.

He's got you labelled as lazy and irresponsible and has said that to your face despite you having worked multiple jobs and done a course that will hopefully lead into a career. It's pretty dodgy for him to have firmly labelled you as that in his mind and to have it as an excuse whenever you try and discuss an issue...using it as a way of throwing it back in your face. And from you've said it seems like he's got you dangling on the end of a string trying to prove him wrong.

Why are you only applying for jobs in his region? If you really want a career in this field you should be applying for everything that comes up and worry about the logistics of living together once you've got a job. If that means living apart for a short time until he could follow you, so be it. That's what my parents did when I was small - dad got a job the other end of the country, moved and got a house set up for us while mum served out her notice and looked for a job in the new location.

You are in too vulnerable a position to not be applying for everything that goes, tbh. I got very worried once you said you were completely financially dependent on someone who is a lot older and apparently doesn't want the same things as you.

Was he happy doing half the housework when you were studying FT?

Something you said in your OP, when you were talking about how great he is: does more than his 'share' (on a 50:50 basis) of the housework without complaining.

This doesn't sound like it's actually true, does it? And what's with the passive aggressive thing with the hoover? He's either using the housework thing as an excuse for why he doesn't want to marry, or he has communication problems which in themselves would be a reason to reconsider the relationship.

Several things stand out for me: he didn't introduce you to his friends for two years, he said the right thing about you being pregnant but was relieved not to be having a child, and he also thinks you have to change for him to move forward. And, he has some objection to marriage. None of this is pointing in the direction of wedding bells or that you are 'the one' for him.

At 2.5 years in, it's make or break time, I'd be out of there. So what if you haven't had a job for a few months in the current economic climate, I would not limit yourself to looking in this area, look for jobs wherever they come up and apply.

I just don't see happy wedding bells for you with this man, nor does he I suspect.

"Can we discuss marriage?"

"I am not discussing anything with you until you learn to do the hoovering to my satisfaction. You dont do enough housework, you should get a job, ............"

2 hours later.....

"if you did what I expect of you, correctly and without reminding, 100% of the time then I might consider talking about whether I want to marry you, but not until"

Tell him to fuck off!

Jeez honey this guy is so not for you seriously. It'll never be anything other than a dad/daughter-type relationship with you trying to match up to his exacting undies classification system, among other things

You should be out there having fun and actually, ploughing your own furrow. I know you're not a gold-digger - you don't come across that way at all tbh. You've worked and studied and now you're looking for a job in your field, which is reasonable, but in your shoes, I wouldn't want to be dependent on this guy in any way. Sorry but there are lots of red flags in your posts.

While you're young, please leave this guy and and find someone more suited to you, that would be my advice.

Sounds like living with your Dad, and a rather odd Dad at that "He also puts his own socks and pants away because he has a chronological filing system based on when they were worn" - each to their own etc. but this man could become very tiring!

So much for the bad points, other than the material support - what do you love about this man?

This man sounds like he would struggle with being a parent. Children mess up a house far more than an adult couple. He's too set in his ways and opinions to share his life with you, let alone children.

He was avoiding the issue (marriage) by distracting you with something trivial (hoovering) in the hope it would keep you quiet.

I would advise you to find a man that is closer to your age and cares more about making you happy than keeping his home spotless.