What are your views on porn?

[EclecticShock]

Walked in on dp last night pleasuring himself and watching porn. I was a little taken aback as since I've known him, he has never alluded to the fact he watches porn while masturbating. To be honest, I haven't really thought about it too much before. His body, his mind etc. I always thought he probably masturabated but guess it became real last night. He was open about it. I've tried to not make a big deal out of it until I decide how I feel about it. Don't get me wrong I masturbate and read eroticism so no real difference there. I do it when he's not here though, he doesn't have that luxury as I'm generally always here so he waited until I went to bed. Fair enough.

I guess I'm now really intrigued to know what exactly he was watching as I didn't realise he was that into visual stuff, thought he was more of a thoughts person. Anyway, he wants to discuss it with me because he thinks I'm upset. I'm not upset as such just a bit shocked I suppose. God knows why, when my personal beliefs are that it's normal.

Our sex life is good. No worries there. My question is should I ask him in depth questions about it or should I just leave it as something that is private to him, that I don't really need to know? I think I might be quite judgemental if it's something I'm not into... Opinions please.

I'm also very nosy...

No, I think you are falling into the trap of characterising most feminist anti-porn argument as catsbum mary whitehouse shit SGB.

It's about men, this, not about women. It's about legitimising men's right to treat us as wank-socks, because we are not as human as them. And to ignore the vast majority of women in the sex industry, who aren't enjoying being there, by focusing on the tiny minority who genuinely do enjoy it.

If women and men were totally equal and women owned 50% of the world's wealth and property and land and resources and were no longer subjected to male violence on a routine basis and were 50% of our elected representatives and ruling cadre, then I wouldn't have a problem with porn because I could believe that it was just a job like any other. But then, I suspect that there just wouldn't be as much of it about, or what there would be, would be very different to what it is now, because the dehumanisation of women would no longer be considered erotic by vast numbers of people.

It's cart before horse to argue in favour of the sex industry being harmless. When we have full equality, yes. Until then, defending it is just defending the industry is not a progressive position.

SGB, you are very dismissive of my situation. You know for a fact that my H was a 'mess' do you? Do you personally know him? I would be very disappointed if you now try to assert some pseudo psyche codswollop that 'all addicts ' have isshooosss.

Also, why assume that anti-porn means anti-sex? I am certainly not anti-sex nor do I find any poster bringing that viewpoint.

I am though more than a tiny bit in love with basil though

PV "Be vary wary OP of any man who will sneak off for a wank in front of the PC when he can have the real deal. Because they do that as the PC gratifies them better than any live woman could"

I really don't think that's the case for all people who watch porn.

Seeker: What I am saying is that I have friends who are sex workers and porn performers, I have been in the industry myself for a long time (and involved in anti-censorship activism for the same amount of time). The issues surrounding workers' rights and safety (ie that no performer should be coerced, abused, pressured to do stuff that is too painful or too dangerous, and that performers should be properly paid and not made to sign restrictive rip-off agreements) are issues that we all pretty much agree on. But the anti-porn people still refuse to accept that it's OK to make porn with willing performers, to have fun making it, to explore sexual diversity because... because... Well it's still wrong and you should just stop it.

Basil: What I think is that we should be fighting for full equality first before we start trying to police sexuality: antiporn activism is basically a dead end (and a big Aunt Sally) for feminism.

What do you mean before we start trying to police sexuality, SGB?

Women's sexuality has been policed by men since they set up patriarchy. Porn is all about men imposing their version of female sexuality on women. You keep focusing on that tiny minority of women in the industry who are there by choice who enjoy it, who are expressing their own sexuality. But we know that the reality, is that most porn is a bunch of male woman-haters imposing their version of their own woman-hating sexuality on women.

To focus solely on the minority, while ignoring the majority and the harm the majority is doing, getting into every little bit of our culture, is just a bit odd IMO. I just can't see why fighting for the right to have nice wank-fodder, when human beings have been able to wank for millenia without it and when it is a right which men want us to focus on, because otherwise we might busy ourselves with stuff that matters, like equal pay, stopping the rape, trafficking and violence they go in for, etc., just seems to me to be a sad waste of energy. Obviously it's up to you, but I personally would prefer to fight for equality first and then we can talk about how important it is to provide wanking materials for everyone.

Absolutely you have solidgoldbrass. And all your friends who are prostitute women are doing it to put themselves through college. Most of them are writing their theses, and just love the working hours. And all the others are just women who love sex, and entertain a few special clients in their luxurious penthouse apartments.

And who gives a flying fuck about the other 95%?

Do you guys just take any opportunity to debate the pros and cons of porn. Ok, I realise my thread title is misleading but I don't think this is the thread to discuss extreme views on. Maybe start another one just about porn?

Anyone can start a thread you know... Whether you are looking for genuine advice and a place to vent or if you are just up for a bit of debate...

Sorry, I don't think it's an extreme view, to think that an industry which has the working practices, the slavery and the systematic exploitation of women at its core, is one that shouldn't be supported.

It shows how far the Overton window has moved, that anyone can declare it extreme to find the systematic sexual abuse of women, abhorrent.

I find it extreme to think that we should all just ignore what goes on in the sex industry, because we're apparently too disempowered to masturbate without seeing sex presented to us by a global industry which hates half the human race.

You asked for views on porn ES and people's views on what they will accept personally in their relationships, are absolutely bound up with their politics.

If they're not, an awful lot of cognitive dissonance is needed to square the circle or a massive amount of ruthless honesty. But IME the former is more common than the latter.

Seeker: Well, quite a few of my friends in the sex industry willingly do give a fuck about those in the industry unwillingly. That's why they get involved with things like Xtalk, communicate with one another, share information and all the rest of it. If you dismiss an entire industry as bad and wrong and fit only for extermination because no one 'needs' its products, you are doing those being abused within it no favours. The way to address issues of exploitation within a specific industry is to support and encourage good practices and fairtrade policies. No one needs vast amounts of fancy clothes, and slave labour within the clothing industry is a major problem (mostly if not entirely affecting women and children). But you don't say to the fashion student sourcing fairtrade fabrics: never mind your attempts to produce ethical goods, ban the whole industry, by wanting to create and sell fashion you are Doing Wrong.

I don't think you need to ask him in-depth questions about the porn he's been watching. Just ask him to show you the sites.

As for the reality of porn (talking about reality isn't an extreme view), you might be interested in Shelley Lubben's website, which talks about hers and other ex-porn performers' experiences in the porn industry:

thepinkcross.org/

Asking "what are your views on porn" in the relationships section, and then telling everybody who engages with the subject but disagrees with you, is pretty bad form.

If it's so hard to hear about other views of pornography maybe you're not quite so cool with it as you think you are OP.

"then telling everybody who engages with the subject but disagrees with you to start another thread "

Basil rocks on this thread.

I've explained, my thread title was misleading, should have asked to change it. The thread was really about my situation not porn in general.

Its a shame that other people on mn might not feel able to post threads relating to porn in the relationship section for fear of being jumped on by feminist ideology.

Are you going to ask him to show you what he's been watching?

Theres a distinction between making a point; and making a point and repeating it over and over and over on the same thread.

Thanks for your concern NYAC, I've seen them.

I think it's a shame that lots of women can't post on Mumsnet about their discomfort about their DH's using porn, without being jumped on by a whole load of women thrusting hand-maiden ideology down their throats.

Dreadful isn't it?

I know we've disagreed in the past but that was on a debating thread. This is an advice thread in relationships, so please give it a rest.

Are you going to tell handmaiden-type, "porn is a harmless bit of fun" posters, to give it a rest ES?

Because you know what, there are masses of women in your situation, who discover that their DP's use porn and are seriously upset by it. They use MN to explore their feelings about it and every single time, there are a load of posters who jump in to tell them that their feelings are not valid. And when posters come on to demand validation from other women for subsuming their feelings and swallowing their discomfort and disappointment about this aspect of their DP's which they simply cannot respect and makes them re-think their view of the men they live with and love, masses of those women are only too happy to validate this denial and cognitive dissonance.

I really do believe that women who refuse to go along with this, have a right to speak up and let other women know, that there is another way. Having spoken to your DP, if you're happy with what you've heard from him and you are now comfortable with his porn use, then that's fine and I'm glad you've worked it out and if you say that's what happened, then I'll give it a rest as regards your particular situation. But for the sake of all the women out there who are reading this and can't do that, please don't tell women who post from a feminist or anti-porn viewpoint, that their posts are less valid than those of women who post from a non-feminist or pro-porn viewpoint and that they should give it a rest. Posting from an anti-porn viewpoint, is no more ideologically driven, than posting from a pro-porn viewpoint, it really isn't.

Its not the viewpoint I oppose, it's the strength... No one has come on this thread repeatedly saying "porn is great, everyone should watch it... There most be serving wrong with you it you're not watching it".

I am not got to argue as I don't think it will be of benefit, personally.

All I did, was pick you up on something which I think is perfectly valid: you said women can't post on MN about porn, without feminists coming and posting from an ideological anti-porn viewpoint.

My contention is that women can't come here without other women posting from an ideological pro-porn viewpoint. Just because most of them haven't thought it out properly, doesn't mean it's any less ideological.

I'm only responding to what people are saying. Which you seem to think automatically makes my opinion have some kind of unreasonable "strength".

Anyway, I hope you work this out in a way that enables you to express your feelings properly and feel genuinely happy about this, ES.