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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Am thoroughly trapped and looking for suggestions, practical advice and support...

83 replies

HowamIgoingtogetoutofthis · 04/05/2012 21:23

Namechanged as this will undoubtedly contain identifying information, I have also changed place names as anyone who knows me will instantly work out what this is all about. It's really long so bear with me, I understand if you can't get to the end, but I am so trapped I don't know where to turn.

I am considering leaving DH, not under the circumstances I think you'll agree, a difficult decision. But there are massive and devastating consequences for my whole family, most importantly my children, who I fear will be abducted out of spite, impotent rage and desperation.

DH is Tunisian. We met in the UK where he was living and settled in 2006. Since then we have gone in to get married (religious service, not legally bound) and have two children, aged 1 and 2. We married only when MIL gave her permission, As DH will do nothing without her approval. She asked me to move back to Tunisia with him so she wouldn't be alone and I could take care of the house. She lives with her husband and other adult son, so is not, alone, just favours her eldest child.I don't want to live in Tunisia forever, we stay for months at a time as it is, the country is hard, illogically bureaucratic, difficulties with infrastructure etc. women, are not treated well, seen and not heard. I rarely leave the house, spend 12 hours a day plus doing housework. Countless other difficulties too numerous to mention.

Being naive and trying to be accommodating (remember this is pre children) I said I would consider it provided we lived in separate apartments, DH was working and able to support us, I could work and any children could be privately educated at a part English speaking school (no where near as expensive as here btw). DH separately suggested various other accoutrements such as a car to avoid being housebound. I suppose I thought no EA or DV went without saying.

Fast forward 4 years. DC have arrived. I can't imagine them going anywhere other than our local school, DS1 has hearing problems and speech delay, in Tunisia these children are sidelined and not given any additional help, they are just held back a year, after year. The medical care is not as good, facilities such as baby changes, parks within walking distance, baby groups of any description are hard to come by.

DH and I argue pretty much constantly. It is a toxic environment. Women often say they feel like lone parents, in fact I feel being an LP would be easier. No offence to any LPs intended. DH gets out of bed around 11am. He normally sleeps in Ds1's room so I can deal with DS2's nightwakings. I am up with both children from 6.30ish trying to keep them quiet as when we disturb him he kicks off, throwing things, swearing, shouting, threats to beat me etc. if I try to take the babies out in the morning so he doesn't get disturbed I get snippy comments about how real women stay at home. Also getting clothes on, showered, bags packed makes quite a lot of noise.

He leaves the house 30mins after waking to go to his friends coffee shop until around 6pm, when he will come home for 30min and then go again until around 11pm. I will be asleep when he gets back. I can only go out for the evening if I get a babysitter, which is expensive thus rare, even then he complains about my abandoning my duties.

I fund our household on one part time small salary. Rent, bills, extras, travel, all childcare. There is little left for food so H HAS to get that. All my family and friends think he is out every night, day and weekend working which is why I am always alone. Truth is, he hasn't worked (bar 1 week, he got fired) in the six years I have known him. The childcare is crippling, H refuses to look after the children alone save for one morning a week as I just can't afford anymore nursery fees. When the children are at nursery he is asleep or with friends. I bath, change, clothe, pack bags, cook do all housework, laundry, finances, DIY, you name it, I do it. Once in a while he'll hang up soggy laundry (x1 in last year) empty dishwasher (once a month). He picks the children up from nursery at stays with them for 45mins until I get home to feed bath and PJ them.

If he wanted to be a SAHD that would be fine, but he hates looking after the children. He complains bitterly about it. And although playful and cheerful with them and meeting their most basic needs, he won't potty train DS and puts him in a nappy (he pressured me into starting and is now undermining it because he can't be arsed). Will leave DS2 in a sodden wet, but not dirty nappy.

He doesn't check DS behaviour and lets him run all over when walking. As a result DS is now a bolter andI have to have him in reigns when we go out. If I try to discipline DS he tells him it's fine and shouts at me he can do what he wants. Even if that means putting him in danger or letting him run around under others feet.

I don't want DS to grow up with no regard for others too.

He has been violent a number of times. He has a caution for harassment from the last time I tried to leave he has been arrested for assault from when I was 12weeks preg with DS1. They have a record of calls and my HV has a note. The violence doesn't really escalate. It was every 3 months or so and consists of a slap, grabs that leave bruises, shoves, face grabs.

Normally is temper tantrums involve him throwing things, smashed up phone and chewed sim card, smashed items of property, punched holes in walls, thrown toys, cups, everything at comes to hand. The violence and rage have unusually I think diminished over time in intensity and frequency.

This is because he realises the next time I have enough proof to get the police involved I'll see it through. I have kept a folder of photos of injuries from him from over the years to use when I need to/am strong enough.

The biggest problem is how is behaviour affects DS1. He is only 2 but already knows his father's behaviour is not normal. H totally lost in two weeks ago and threw a cabinet storing books and DVDs across the room. After having beaten me with pillows whilst old DS1 (not a comedy as it sounds, I mean full pelt) and telling DS1 to call me stupid, a donkey, a bitch. DS was terrified, refused to call me anything and just kept saying "daddy threw the books!" again and again. H screaming and swearing, DS holding his ears (me cuddling DS, taking him from the room H following us) as he had had an operation under GA the day before. Since then DS has been having epic tantrums. Until Wednesday morning when we were getting ready to go to nursery (DH fast asleep obv) and DS went over to the cabinet (that I had screwed back together) and said "daddy broke it, he threw the books mummy" which was heartbreaking. And then "throw it pillow daddy, hurt it mummy" I just said "I know,it was frightening and not nice, daddy's was so naughty, it's not nice to throw or break things and he is sorry". The tantrums stopped since that conversation.

Today, we went to the shops. In one shop one the way out I noticed H had given DS toys from the display and was walking out with them squashed between them (DS being carried). Not the first time. I was devastated and took the toys off DS to put them back so he started screaming. I couldn't say anything to H in case went off on one and scared DS again. In the supermarket he started eating fruit from the display, I told him enough was enough that stealing at all was disgusting, but teaching it to an impressionable child was unforgivable. He picked up the fruit, threw it at he and shouted: "fuck off its a few fucking grapes" DS started to say "mummydaddymummydaddy" as he does when voices raised. And I didn't say anything other than cuddle Ds1 and just walked to checkout and paid, to get out of there. This last incident is really an example and happens around twice a month.

If you have got this far and thank you if you have you are probably wondering why am I still with this man. Aside from the usual sometimes he can be nice and loving and the children dote on him thing, there is more. He has made it CRYSTAL clear that if I were to ever leave he would take the children and go. Back to Tunisia, which is not a convention member so I would not be able to get the children back. Which rules out contact for me.

So you think about hiding. And then how that would be, looking over my shoulder for the next 15 years, heart in my mouth every time they stay out, go to school, are late home etc. I couldn't do that. Also I have no money, it is all going on the family, every penny and the childcare. So would be in a refuge. I'd have to leave my job. It's slim picking s out there at the moment. I wouldn't be able to meet my obligations, I'd have to pull the children from nursery, move area, city everything.

I think about people who say "I'd kick him out" it makes my laugh. What if they won't leave?! You can't forcibly remove someone and with no recent allegation the police can't help (I have a lot of professional experience in the field. He won't give up the children. Ever.

You think about injunctions, prohibited steps orders, all ports warnings. None of makes a blind bit of difference. He doesn't give two shits about rules or orders. Orders are only as good as enforcement, and enforcement just isn't quick enough in a crisis such as child abduction. I have no doubt in my mind he would do it. He knows people who can arrange documents for him and is well versed in crossing borders illegally. The children would be a doddle for him.

So I stay, to ensure the children are with me. I try (and fail) not to pick fights or criticise things I know will set him off (I am not blaming myself, if I didn't criticise him or disturb him before 12pm) his tempers would be reduced to almost nil. But sometimes things must be said. The past 2 weeks is the first time DS has become properly aware of his behaviour and I have realised how trapped I am. I thoughtI could just go along with everything placidly until the children were old enough to know if they were being abducted IKYWIM.

But know I don't know. so I am asking for any solutions to an impossible problem.

H does know I am trapped and frequently goads me "leave, live your life, leave me with the children, have fun with your friends in the city, go on, you can start again, just leave them with me" it's vile. I am so ashamed to be in this situation. I will undoubtedly have points against whatever solution is raised, I have been over it myself for years and and not (totally) dim. But can someone help me work this through? I will probably drip feed and I am sorry, but this is really just the tip of the iceberg. I have been drafting this for months.

Thanks anyone, a lonely weekend with no money approaches, am at the end of my tether.

OP posts:
NotSuchASmugMarriedNow · 04/05/2012 21:43

You know what you need to do. You need to go to a refuge. Yes, you'll lose your job and the kids will have to change nurseries, is that worse than what your going through now? You decide.

Olympia2012 · 04/05/2012 21:53

Same as anyone.... We all faced these abduction fears. You need to call women's aid and ask for their help.

izzyizin · 04/05/2012 21:55

Does this man have leave to be in the UK by way of a work visa or similar?

Is the property you currently occupy in joint names by way of a tenancy agreement/mortage?

Is he named on your dcs' birth certificates?

foolonthehill · 04/05/2012 21:56

My heart hurts for you and your children.

But you know what you have to do.

Leaving everything seems impossible, but staying could cost you everything, not least the welfare of your children.

You all deserve better.

Leaving and hiding for a while, then rebuilding...we come with nothing into the world, we can take nothing with us...but in between we are meant to live, and you and your children are not living and will not survive like this.

draw strength from where you can, nothing is 100% safe , but you are not safe now.

I am assuming that you are in the UK when not staying in "Tunisia"?

Glenshee · 04/05/2012 22:17

If you are in the UK, go to a refuge centre. Have faith in the fact that children are safe with you, and not with him. He has no chance.

Believe me, a year after you leave, he won't be even trying to find you. In 2 years, even if he knows where you are, he will not be bothered to travel and see his children anyway.

Be strong. If you leave, this will not last forever, you will go through a bad patch, and go out at the other end. You will be able to relax and live a normal life, eventually. But right now you have to be stronger than you've ever been! Courage up and leave.

LeChatRouge · 04/05/2012 22:28

Unbearable. You absolutely cannot go on any longer - what sort of life is this. As your son grows and becomes more aware, you have an obligation not to expose him to this type of behaviour.
Please consider contacting these people - they are there for situations like this - ring them and talk through your options.
It's time for courage.

HowamIgoingtogetoutofthis · 04/05/2012 22:33

I think the problem is notsuch it does seem worse than what I am going through now it some ways. I know how that sounds.

I spoke to a DV support person before, they basically said unless I undertook to leave him them and there they wouldn't talk to me. I think now I am living in a different area, that should be my first port of call. I am worried if I bottle out they wil involve SS and the whole situation will escalate still further.

izzy he is a permanent UK resident. He is on the birth certificates. Joint names on Tenancy agreement.

Thanks fool I guess at the moment I feel more safe from them being permanently taken away from me and me never seeing them again, which is why I am so reticent. The "what if" i destroy my career, life as is, friendships, family and everything I know and he snatches them and I never see them ever again. Or worse a court ordered contact and never saw them again. I am crying now I can't lose them. Your inverted commas were accurate on location. Do you know me?

Glenshee thank you for your kind words. He is a vindictive sod. For all his faults he adores the children. He would never ever just give them up.
How could anyone be strong enough for these risks?

OP posts:
AbigailAdams · 04/05/2012 22:40

OK OP, he doesn't adore the children otherwise he wouldn't behave like that in front of them. He is controlling them and grooming them (not sexually).

You desperately need to ring Women's Aid and leave to a refuge. Please ring them.

On a practical note what is happening to benefits - child benefit, tax credits etc. Are you getting them?

AbigailAdams · 04/05/2012 22:44

It sounds an absolutely awful situation to be in and the quicker you are out of it the better. I really feel for you, I am sure you feel caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. But you're not. You are caught between the devil and a decent life for you and your children.

Wishing you strength to get the life you deserve x

MorrisZapp · 04/05/2012 22:48

If he wants to live in Tunisia, why doesn't he go there now? I suspect because he likes living here.

It seems to me that he has terrified you into believing threats that he wouldn't actually follow through. He hates looking after the kids, you say. I agree with the poster who said within a short time you won't have to hide from him - he'll lose interest and find another victim.

Why would you lose your friends if you left him?

Lueji · 04/05/2012 22:48

You do have to consider how much you lose by staying compared with leaving.
You and the children.

Do not be so sure he won't give up the children. He doesn't really love them.

You seem very lost on what you can do. Knowledge is power and you should get as much info from all directions. WA, solicitor, police.

foolonthehill · 04/05/2012 22:49

No I don't know you...and if I did you would still be safe. You can pm me if you want to.

I think many of us have lived through the nightmare of the threatened abduction etc. and of course it is TERRIFYING. however you know that this is no way for your DCs to grow up and whilst you are in UK this is the safest and best time/place to escape as your children have protection rights here that they will not have elsewhere.

You know he has parental responsibility, only the children have rights. I think you can be made safer and I think you can escape, and you know you need to.

Have you your own bank account?

MorrisZapp · 04/05/2012 22:50

And what abigail said about him 'adoring' his kids. Sorry, but he doesn't. If he did, he would act like it.

IWantSummer · 04/05/2012 22:55

Can't offer any useful advice-just hugs Smile

ImperialBlether · 04/05/2012 22:58

Look, any court would give you custody. He wouldn't get it in a month of Sundays. As such you can then prevent them from leaving the country. Border controls are very strict. He couldn't physically take your children if he couldn't get hold of passports - that is relatively easy to sort out.

In your position, I'd go somewhere that was several hundred miles from where you live now. I'd change your names through deed poll. Any solicitors around to say how that works? In the meantime the names you're known by (even if false) will be acceptable.

I'd go to Women's Aid and ask for refuge. He's a disgusting man and you shouldn't live with him. Your poor children. Ask if they can help you move several hundred miles away. With different names, he'd never find you. In all likelihood he'd end up going home to Tunisia.

iwantbrie · 04/05/2012 22:59

Can you get hold of and hide the childrens passports and birth certificates? Thats all the advice I can give really but am confused about what you said about the DV support, surely they more than anyone should know that leaving there and then isn't always that simple?
All I can offer is hand holding xx

ImperialBlether · 04/05/2012 22:59

Is he smoking a lot of dope? Is that part of his culture? If so, I think any talk about finding you will be all talk. He won't have the energy to do anything about it. Look at him, he can't even get a bloody job.

ImperialBlether · 04/05/2012 23:00

And you could always have messages sent to him from other countries, as though you're living there, if you had to have contact.

ImperialBlether · 04/05/2012 23:01

The thing is that you are imbuing him with more power than he has. He sounds like a stoner to me. He's all talk. See him for what he is - a weak, pathetic man, and you might get the courage to leave him.

I'm a single mum - it's a million times better than what you're going through.

FetchezLaVache · 04/05/2012 23:01

OK, practical advice. Get the boys' passports, get them out of the house into the safekeeping of someone you can trust, as soon as you can. Whatever he says, he can't take them out of the country without those. Once you know the passports are safe, whatever he says will lose much of its threat. Then you need to take steps to get yourself and the boys out. You're obviously a wonderful mum if your sons have grown up with this man and still realise that this isn't normal or laudible behaviour, you can be proud of yourself for that. Keep strong. xxx

ImperialBlether · 04/05/2012 23:05

You can have it lodged at the border controls that he mustn't take the children out of the country, too.

pchip · 04/05/2012 23:05

I disagree with those that say he would lose interest in the kids. Especially a boy. It's just against his "tunisian" culture. A common solution is to ship the boy there to be raised "properly" by the grandmother in the right culture/religion/etc. I dont mean to scare you OP but he comes across as a proud/spiteful stereotype from your description and I think your instincts are spot on. I have no words of wisdom, but my gut reaction is he would lose interest if he found a "proper" woman from his country from "a good family" (as defined by his mother) and she bore him another son.

HowamIgoingtogetoutofthis · 04/05/2012 23:10

Bear with me I have never spoken honestly about this beforehand and trying to find words for things I have only ever kept inside is really tough.

Abigail the tax credits and CB are paid to me, but they won't pay childcare as H is not working. There is no provision for a partner who doesn't want to or provides substandard care! He doesn't feel he is doing everything wrong, he grew up with this shit, to him, it's normal. He truly believes he is a fab dad and H.

I have my own bank account. I feel I'd lose my friends as I would have to move away. The last time I tried to leave he went to my place of work, my parents my friends and harassed and harangued until he wormed his way back in. It was that glimpse of that intense, "I won't let you go" behaviourI can't get past. It's also a family reputation pride thing. There is no small amount of shame attached to this situation for him hence the desperation. They have been my (unknowing) support system and I would be cut adrift still further. My mum is weak at the moment (psychologically unwell) and he'll be there in a heart beat, knocking on her door, harrassing her.

Oh my current profession (I have no other experience, am very specialised in my area) requires my place of work details are on a public website. By law. Lordy.

OP posts:
foolonthehill · 04/05/2012 23:12

Whatever the risks to the boys in UK they would be better protected here than when the next marathon visit to Tunisia happens.

If you are lucky he is using the children as a means of hanging on to you and he may move on (as he certainly appears to be a lazy, entitled person), if you are unlucky you will have to use all your cunning, the full force of the law and all the support you can muster to hide...but it can be done.

Olympia2012 · 04/05/2012 23:12

Is all the dv unreported to police? Because in all likelihood he would be granted access..... The onus is on you to prove he is unfit to have them unsupervised.

You will need solid proof..... Courts will give him the standard hoops to jump through..... If he does so, then he will eventually be in a position to have in supervised access.

Passports.... Dual nationality? He could get them new passports. Even without, he has PR. He could say originals were lost and apply for new ones.