Am thoroughly trapped and looking for suggestions, practical advice and support...

[HowamIgoingtogetoutofthis]

Namechanged as this will undoubtedly contain identifying information, I have also changed place names as anyone who knows me will instantly work out what this is all about. It's really long so bear with me, I understand if you can't get to the end, but I am so trapped I don't know where to turn.

I am considering leaving DH, not under the circumstances I think you'll agree, a difficult decision. But there are massive and devastating consequences for my whole family, most importantly my children, who I fear will be abducted out of spite, impotent rage and desperation.

DH is Tunisian. We met in the UK where he was living and settled in 2006. Since then we have gone in to get married (religious service, not legally bound) and have two children, aged 1 and 2. We married only when MIL gave her permission, As DH will do nothing without her approval. She asked me to move back to Tunisia with him so she wouldn't be alone and I could take care of the house. She lives with her husband and other adult son, so is not, alone, just favours her eldest child.I don't want to live in Tunisia forever, we stay for months at a time as it is, the country is hard, illogically bureaucratic, difficulties with infrastructure etc. women, are not treated well, seen and not heard. I rarely leave the house, spend 12 hours a day plus doing housework. Countless other difficulties too numerous to mention.

Being naive and trying to be accommodating (remember this is pre children) I said I would consider it provided we lived in separate apartments, DH was working and able to support us, I could work and any children could be privately educated at a part English speaking school (no where near as expensive as here btw). DH separately suggested various other accoutrements such as a car to avoid being housebound. I suppose I thought no EA or DV went without saying.

Fast forward 4 years. DC have arrived. I can't imagine them going anywhere other than our local school, DS1 has hearing problems and speech delay, in Tunisia these children are sidelined and not given any additional help, they are just held back a year, after year. The medical care is not as good, facilities such as baby changes, parks within walking distance, baby groups of any description are hard to come by.

DH and I argue pretty much constantly. It is a toxic environment. Women often say they feel like lone parents, in fact I feel being an LP would be easier. No offence to any LPs intended. DH gets out of bed around 11am. He normally sleeps in Ds1's room so I can deal with DS2's nightwakings. I am up with both children from 6.30ish trying to keep them quiet as when we disturb him he kicks off, throwing things, swearing, shouting, threats to beat me etc. if I try to take the babies out in the morning so he doesn't get disturbed I get snippy comments about how real women stay at home. Also getting clothes on, showered, bags packed makes quite a lot of noise.

He leaves the house 30mins after waking to go to his friends coffee shop until around 6pm, when he will come home for 30min and then go again until around 11pm. I will be asleep when he gets back. I can only go out for the evening if I get a babysitter, which is expensive thus rare, even then he complains about my abandoning my duties.

I fund our household on one part time small salary. Rent, bills, extras, travel, all childcare. There is little left for food so H HAS to get that. All my family and friends think he is out every night, day and weekend working which is why I am always alone. Truth is, he hasn't worked (bar 1 week, he got fired) in the six years I have known him. The childcare is crippling, H refuses to look after the children alone save for one morning a week as I just can't afford anymore nursery fees. When the children are at nursery he is asleep or with friends. I bath, change, clothe, pack bags, cook do all housework, laundry, finances, DIY, you name it, I do it. Once in a while he'll hang up soggy laundry (x1 in last year) empty dishwasher (once a month). He picks the children up from nursery at stays with them for 45mins until I get home to feed bath and PJ them.

If he wanted to be a SAHD that would be fine, but he hates looking after the children. He complains bitterly about it. And although playful and cheerful with them and meeting their most basic needs, he won't potty train DS and puts him in a nappy (he pressured me into starting and is now undermining it because he can't be arsed). Will leave DS2 in a sodden wet, but not dirty nappy.

He doesn't check DS behaviour and lets him run all over when walking. As a result DS is now a bolter andI have to have him in reigns when we go out. If I try to discipline DS he tells him it's fine and shouts at me he can do what he wants. Even if that means putting him in danger or letting him run around under others feet.

I don't want DS to grow up with no regard for others too.

He has been violent a number of times. He has a caution for harassment from the last time I tried to leave he has been arrested for assault from when I was 12weeks preg with DS1. They have a record of calls and my HV has a note. The violence doesn't really escalate. It was every 3 months or so and consists of a slap, grabs that leave bruises, shoves, face grabs.

Normally is temper tantrums involve him throwing things, smashed up phone and chewed sim card, smashed items of property, punched holes in walls, thrown toys, cups, everything at comes to hand. The violence and rage have unusually I think diminished over time in intensity and frequency.

This is because he realises the next time I have enough proof to get the police involved I'll see it through. I have kept a folder of photos of injuries from him from over the years to use when I need to/am strong enough.

The biggest problem is how is behaviour affects DS1. He is only 2 but already knows his father's behaviour is not normal. H totally lost in two weeks ago and threw a cabinet storing books and DVDs across the room. After having beaten me with pillows whilst old DS1 (not a comedy as it sounds, I mean full pelt) and telling DS1 to call me stupid, a donkey, a bitch. DS was terrified, refused to call me anything and just kept saying "daddy threw the books!" again and again. H screaming and swearing, DS holding his ears (me cuddling DS, taking him from the room H following us) as he had had an operation under GA the day before. Since then DS has been having epic tantrums. Until Wednesday morning when we were getting ready to go to nursery (DH fast asleep obv) and DS went over to the cabinet (that I had screwed back together) and said "daddy broke it, he threw the books mummy" which was heartbreaking. And then "throw it pillow daddy, hurt it mummy" I just said "I know,it was frightening and not nice, daddy's was so naughty, it's not nice to throw or break things and he is sorry". The tantrums stopped since that conversation.

Today, we went to the shops. In one shop one the way out I noticed H had given DS toys from the display and was walking out with them squashed between them (DS being carried). Not the first time. I was devastated and took the toys off DS to put them back so he started screaming. I couldn't say anything to H in case went off on one and scared DS again. In the supermarket he started eating fruit from the display, I told him enough was enough that stealing at all was disgusting, but teaching it to an impressionable child was unforgivable. He picked up the fruit, threw it at he and shouted: "fuck off its a few fucking grapes" DS started to say "mummydaddymummydaddy" as he does when voices raised. And I didn't say anything other than cuddle Ds1 and just walked to checkout and paid, to get out of there. This last incident is really an example and happens around twice a month.

If you have got this far and thank you if you have you are probably wondering why am I still with this man. Aside from the usual sometimes he can be nice and loving and the children dote on him thing, there is more. He has made it CRYSTAL clear that if I were to ever leave he would take the children and go. Back to Tunisia, which is not a convention member so I would not be able to get the children back. Which rules out contact for me.

So you think about hiding. And then how that would be, looking over my shoulder for the next 15 years, heart in my mouth every time they stay out, go to school, are late home etc. I couldn't do that. Also I have no money, it is all going on the family, every penny and the childcare. So would be in a refuge. I'd have to leave my job. It's slim picking s out there at the moment. I wouldn't be able to meet my obligations, I'd have to pull the children from nursery, move area, city everything.

I think about people who say "I'd kick him out" it makes my laugh. What if they won't leave?! You can't forcibly remove someone and with no recent allegation the police can't help (I have a lot of professional experience in the field. He won't give up the children. Ever.

You think about injunctions, prohibited steps orders, all ports warnings. None of makes a blind bit of difference. He doesn't give two shits about rules or orders. Orders are only as good as enforcement, and enforcement just isn't quick enough in a crisis such as child abduction. I have no doubt in my mind he would do it. He knows people who can arrange documents for him and is well versed in crossing borders illegally. The children would be a doddle for him.

So I stay, to ensure the children are with me. I try (and fail) not to pick fights or criticise things I know will set him off (I am not blaming myself, if I didn't criticise him or disturb him before 12pm) his tempers would be reduced to almost nil. But sometimes things must be said. The past 2 weeks is the first time DS has become properly aware of his behaviour and I have realised how trapped I am. I thoughtI could just go along with everything placidly until the children were old enough to know if they were being abducted IKYWIM.

But know I don't know. so I am asking for any solutions to an impossible problem.

H does know I am trapped and frequently goads me "leave, live your life, leave me with the children, have fun with your friends in the city, go on, you can start again, just leave them with me" it's vile. I am so ashamed to be in this situation. I will undoubtedly have points against whatever solution is raised, I have been over it myself for years and and not (totally) dim. But can someone help me work this through? I will probably drip feed and I am sorry, but this is really just the tip of the iceberg. I have been drafting this for months.

Thanks anyone, a lonely weekend with no money approaches, am at the end of my tether.

I agree with tryharder. I was married to a pakistani and the threat of child abduction was what kept me from leaving. Most of your OP I could have written myself, right down to being called a donkey. The only difference being that my H worked and we had business together, but if he wanted to leave the country and go home where he had plenty of resources I fear I wouldn't have seen the DCs again. And the children mean't everything to him even if he didn't look after them.

There is shame and honour attached family and I can quite understand why you feel this is a very real threat because it is.

I am no longer in your position as my H died but if I was I would consider disappearing with the help of womens aid and then set about changing my identity and those of my children - take as much help as you can get. As the children get older the situation will get worse and you will have this hanging over you anyway; so please take your chances away from him.

People say to me now that my H wouldn't have left with the DCs but after he died and I went through his things and read a load of 'notes' he kept on me I felt that if I'd left with the kids he would have had nothing left and nothing to lose by going home with them.

I wish you luck

You mention in your OP that all your friends and family think he's working every day/night. Why is that? Why are you not playing his culture's card? He's not providing for his family and sponging off his wife's tiny salary. This is very shameful in his culture and he would be vilified by his Tunisian inlaws to all the neighborhood... Especially MIL's friends etc. Keep in mind the importance of keeping up appearances of being from "a good family" to him as this is how he was brought up. Especially shameful for the eldest son, who's expected to be financially responsible for his aging parents and eventually take over as head of family (by the way, I'm surprised he's not expected to be sending them any money back to tunisia - you sure he's not squirreling any away?). If you were "Tunisian" your entire extended family would be screaming bloody murder about how useless of a man your husband is to his side of the family. He wouldn't be precious eldest son who can do no wrong to MIL long . Instead he's got a cosy little set up with you where you enable him to play the big man in front of your family while he's having a good laugh about how soft these Brits are with his friends at the cafe every night. In "Tunisia" he'd have a ranting MIL (your mum) parked in the kitchen every time he came home wailing about his lack of a job. Your brother would be harassing him about it at the cafe, telling all your husbands friends about it, your father would be calling his father to discuss this... It would just. Not. Be. On. There would be huge family pressure and family reputation would be talked about, etc. Do you understand where I'm going with this and how incredibly cushy you're making his life by not telling your friends and family what a wanker he is? .

The idea in a lot of crime prevention is that you can't reduce risk to zero, but you can put in as many obstacles as possible to make things difficult, so the person has to deal with loads of obstacles.

I sort of feel like the OP is looking for one magic bullet instead of appreciating all the various smaller things she can do and the disadvantages that her husband has. He's violent with evidence of DV, he has no job and no money, he has dodgy immigration status. The OP can get help from women's aid, solicitors, refuges. You need to look at the bigger picture.

I think it's still worth investigating the immigration angle, for a couple reasons.

They are massively cracking down on sham marriages right now and have special teams for investigating this. As I said, I have a friend who got caught with one, he got off lightly but the woman (the non-EU national) had to leave the country.

As I understand it, if you gain your initial immigration status under false premises, you lose any rights to residency you might otherwise have. They are also getting rid of the automatic residency based on years living in the UK so I don't think he could fall back on that anyway. And I don't think he could apply based on the children if his wife is living in a refuge and he is not allowed to see them anyway.

Maybe it's a long shot but why not check it out with an immigration solicitor? It would be good to see one anyway to try to set up the maximum protections against abduction (which, I know, are not that great but better than nothing).

Also, there is a charity called Reunite that helps parents who fear their children may be abducted overseas:

www.reunite.org/

They have a 24 hour advice line and can recommend solicitors and such.

As someone mentioned, you are possibly at greater risk of having them abducted if you don't leave, because he will have easy access to them. So best to get some advice on what you can do.

I'm not at all suggesting things will be easy or that this isn't very dangerous -- you really have to be cautious and clever.

But it's just not realistic to think that your current situation can carry on like this for years. Either he will really hurt you or the children, or your children will tell someone and SS will get involved, or your husband will decide anyway to go off with the children. And anyway, in the meantime, your DC are being raised in an abusive household and suffering from that. So I think you do need to start to figure out what you can do to change things.

Some really really brilliant advice and understanding. I will check back later as H is sleeping (yes it's midday) I want to reply to quite a few posters individulally and will do so when DC sleep this evening I will be back. I think I need to plan this very carefully and as things are relatively stable, get proper RL advice, plan a multi pronged approach and implement it simultaneously. I need to start saving a little and quickly and looking another areas to live as well as contacting the various agencies. Will be back later to start trying to plan. It is right that I need to proceed very carefully.

Re the money to parents. He has sent them money, when I was full time before DS2 was born he siphoned of a fortune having told me it was for childcare and shopping and bills. I found out later we were in debt and he had sent it to MIL. this she still believes him to be truly fantastic. SIL knows the truth of the matter. She can't tell her mum, as the backlash against her and me would be immense. but that will soon be not my concern.

Right, some practical points:

• Obviously don't ever go back to Tunisia.

• It sounds like you probably will have to leave your home and job and friends and go to a refuge elsewhere, in order to escape from him. This is going to mean starting again, yes. It will also cause problems with your job. there are other jobs, and there are benefits you can live on.

• Regarding change of name if you move city, which you're probably going to have to do, no you don't need a deed poll. You don't even need to involve a solicitor actually- you can just start using your new names. In practice, official institutions tend to want proof of name change. As such I'd go to a solicitor, as it's less public than any other option. More info here:

www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/relationships_w/relationships_birth_certificates_and_changing_your_name_e/change_of_name.htm

• It's good that you have the DV 'recorded'. But the more contemporaneous proof, the better. The authorities like paper trails. You should go to your GP and tell her about this. That will leave another paper trail, for when the time comes.

• Your DP has permanent residence in the UK as the family member of an EEA national who's been exercising Treaty rights for 5 years, it sounds like. Permanent residence can be ungranted. It's more difficult to do so in the case of an EEA national's family member, but not impossible even when they're genuinely living together as a family. If you just ring UKBA and report him, chances are they won't do much. they don't have sufficient resources and it would be hard to prove that a marriage from some years ago was a scam, even if they live apart now. However, a criminal conviction would make it more likely.

• I don't know if he wants citizenship at any point, but he won't get it if he has any outstanding criminal convictions. That would include ones for assault agaisnt you.

• Having parental responsibility doesn't mean he'll be allowed contact. Contact can also occur within strictly defined parameters eg supervised, him not being allowed to know your location.

• You sound like you know this already, but family courts can make orders that children's passports be held by a third party and that nobody apply for any more for them. It's true that false passports can be obtained and borders crossed illegally, but the people doing this are usually healthy young men. It's harder to smuggle kids over a border without anyone noticing. not impossible, and I think this is simply a risk you'll have to live with. But unlikely, and frankly no worse than your current situation.

• If you have 7k of parking fines that you can't pay, you also need some debt advice. A debt relief order might be an option. There are loads of charities who can provide free advice. not just CAB, but also Money Advice Trust and National Debtline. This isn't the first priority for you right now, but just so you know it's there.

well done HowamI. Little steps, careful steps, you can get there.

Agreed. First priorities: GP appointment, chat with local Women's Aid or similar to discuss a plan for you.

Oh, and you can check that you're maximising your income now, and what you'd be entitled to when you leave:

www.turn2us.org.uk/benefits_search.aspx

Excellent post from pchip

you have had so much brilliant advice on here. I'm afraid I can't offer much more but personally, I think fleeing to a refuge far away and possible name changing definitely sounds like a good start. We are lucky in this country to have so much support. use as much help as you can get. Do it now while your babies are young and they won't learn to imitate their horrible father. This man sounds very scary and I can't imagine how it must be to be living the nightmare you are right now.. You sound strong and you know what is right. Protect yourself and your darling children and get out adap. Good luck. Xx

• asap

I lived in Turkey for many years. Your H's behaviour sounds very similar to the majority of Turkish men (I say majority, because they're not all like that). The not working and leaving the wife to do absolutely everything is quite common - the Western assumption that an Eastern man is ashamed to let his wife be the breadwinner is not entirely correct! Also the low level domestic violence. Very common. And the 'tasting' of fruit in the supermarket - that I'll let him off with - perfectly fine in Turkey - the fruitsellers don't mind and even offer it to you - so your H is just doing what he thinks is normal.... As for letting his son behave exactly as he pleases - also normal - hence why lovely young Turkish boys grow up into spoilt 3 year olds in the body of an adult (which can be extremely dangerous). Oh, and the sleeping till all hours. Also basically normal in Turkey. All the men do it. In fact, your H actually staying in the house for 30 minutes between waking up and leaving till night is better than most - usually it's about 10 minutes!

But, what I would say is that if you and he only had a religious marriage, which is therefore not legal, civilly, then Tunisian law might name you as the children's guardian. A friend of mine, living in Turkey, recently went to court over custody of their child, and she won because she wasn't legally married to the father. You might check whether it's the same in Tunisia.

Not that that helps in the event that he abducts them of course.

Get some advice about getting him deported based on his fake marriage. That might be the best way forward. I realise that even if he's deported, he might still get hold of fake passports/travel documents and try to come back, but he'd need money for that... Find out if it's possible to change all your names. Starting again elsewhere will be hard, yes, but by no means impossible.

It might be that all his threats are empty words. But I know how fuelled some of them can get with vengeance. No thoughts for the children - all they want is to make the mother pay, and they don't care how much they hurt their children in the process. And as you said - they don't actually want to bring the children up themselves, oh no, they just palm them off on the nearest female relative.

What a horrible situation to be in. I do hope you're able to get him deported.

In your last post I see more spirit.

You are now no longer as trapped as you sounded in the OP.

I've been trapped, with an abusive man, who hit me, 5+ hours flying time away from the UK, with a 3yo DS. I was 4 flights up in a building with no lift, 3+ hours from the airport, no money to get a cab there even if it had have been safe to do so. I could never have got my son AND my luggage down ONE flight of stairs all at once, it was either clothes or my son. Not both. things then were as desperate as they could ever have been. It was literally impossible.

So what was I to do? At that time NOTHING. However, as you have identified, you wait, you watch and you figure out what to do and how to get out, for good. I knew I was to return to the UK for the start of DS school, and that would be my break.

I came home, set up house and after 8m, gave the Ex one more chance to be a normal person when he came back to the UK, but he couldn't do it. He eventually left to go back to his original country a year ago. I'm free.

Ok so I have no threat of abduction, only real dick heads do that, and nowadays my life is my own. I never for a second regret splitting, my life is immeasurably better than it was then.

Yours WILL be too.

Plan, plan and plan. Call WA and get some RL help, get as much documented as you possibly can, create a papertrail that is extensive and robust, tackle this problem on every level. Your story is not unique, sadly far from it, there are going to be many, many people experienced enough to give you sound and proper advice. You sound very intelligent and easily more than capable of pulling this off.

You can and you will succeed. MN is an invaluable resource for legal issues, but the CAB and an immigration lawyer can help advise you of your options. As you say, think bigger picture, think multi-pronged, think long term and put everything you have into achieving it.

If I can get out of the hole that I was in, you can too. We're all here for you.

Sounds like you're going through hell. I think you should disappear into the refuge system, I can't see any other way you're going to get away from him.

I spend 90 mins writing a response and update to everyone who was kind enough to post. H came home and I shut it down too fast. Deleted the lot. Am so upset. Time is so bloody precious and I had a ton of work to do. Back later when I have redrafted, saved and fumed!

OP...I have read only 1 or 2 answers...the only practical thing to do here is to leave him, for all your sakes...please please find a way...my heart goes out to you xx

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to support me. It ,akes such a difference, it has taken months to post and I am so glad I did. You ladies are amazing.

My plan is this:

1. Call women's aid
2. Book appointment with Women's trust for counselling
3. Open secret savings, sell my only valuable possession, heartbreaking but necessary.
4. Work towards leaving before next scheduled trip in summer.
5. Find a good nursery and primary somewhere with work prospects (I have been looking at this.)
6. Work out what documents are required for benefits applications
7. Complete for on reunite website, take children's fingerprints
8. Check legal aid eligibility get family solicitor
9. Check work notice periods

10. Check tenancy notice period 11. Make what to do In Case of emergency plan, done. 12. Complete applications for prohibited steps, passport blocks and injunction 13. Deed poll research 14. Debt relief order 15. Organise chronology and evidence 16. Charge and load credit on PAYG in case he smashes up my normal one. (I usually hide it in the washing machine, the last place he will look since he hasn't looked inside it for 3 years). 17. Work out timings and have a planned exit day plan. As in book van and driver, pack In Secret. He won't notice, he never looks at children's stuff, doesn't go in my stuff or the kitchen and runs through the shower once a day.

I checked benefits, I'd be massively better off without him. It would be the deposit/bridging gap waiting for payments to start that I'd like to save up a bit for as those 2-3 months will be impossible otherwise.

Some answers to questions:

He is still married legally. Hasn't seen her before or since the wedding day.
His drug taking is cannabis only I think, very minor and of no interest to police. I've never seen him doing it. But then he's never really here.
He has submitted a citizenship application. I am considering calling UKBIA, I have no proof, it may be pointless, he'd be back the next day if he was deported, I am absolutely not exaggerating.

shelleywelly your friend's plan is exactly what I'd do. Get all move boats in a row and make a co-ordinated move out with every possible protection in place (for what they are worth).

tryharder and pchip have it spot on. I didn't realise he was such a stereotype. Pchip, I know he will take money from me and anyone else to send to his mother so she continues to believe he is perfect.

sirsugar I don't know what to say. that must have been so confusing. although I wouldn't wish it, I am ashamed to say if H were to die, it would almost be a relief. I hope you are at peace. Thanks for being so empathetic towards me. It is a comfort.

Flangelina and Dreaming so much practical help, thank you, I think I've incorporated it in The Plan above.

restassured your penultimate paragraph sums it up.

happyhissy I can relate to that from when I've been at MILs. Glad you got out. Inspirational. H is a real dickhead btw :)

I know this will devastate him and MIL who I cant stand at the best of times. it sounds so weak, but I can feel it nibbling at my conscience. I don't want to hurt him even after everything. God help me.

Can I keep updating? Keeps me on track I think. I wonder how many agencies are staffed over a BH weekend?

Keep updating! This is YOUR thread, you're allowed to do what you like! :)

Great list. Break it up to manageable bites and tackle it bit by bit. Don't allow it to overwhelm you. We're here to help, never forget that?

WRT your feelings of guilt, that's actually FEAR of reprisal, you've been conditioned to think that you can't retaliate. Remember that not ONCE did they consider YOUR feelings!

FWIW, situations like these, the inlaw family in these places treat the uk wife as a cash machine, and usually hold them in utter contempt. There's no love lost between them and you. I've seen the bitter hatred/jealousy at close hand.

I can help re lone parent benefits if you want to PM me.

OP I have just read this thread and felt sick for your situation but I was so relieved to read your last posts. Your plan sounds fantastic and it will be south better for your children to be away from his influence. I think getting as far away with new names sounds like the way to go.

At the moment, he could take your children anyway as someone pointed out if he gets tired of the relationship. I also think that whilst he might return the next day if deported, making his life as difficult and expensive as possible would be one of my aims. Whilst he's trying to deal with those obstacles he won't have time to look for you.

I think my LL may owe me around £900 She has I think miscalculated the amount I needed to pay on top of HB. She told me it was 366, In my post natal haze I didnt check, I think it was only supposed to be £274 I have been struggling for MONTHS, short term loans the lot. H applied for it and the contribution goes straight to LL. i have just found the letter which H normally hides. LL is a bit away with the fairies and probably has no idea. Then I'd be halfway there! Add in the salary for the month I move and not paying nursery that month, I could do it in 2 months, just in time.

I will probably never see £1800 deposit when I leave because H will just stay and not pay until he gets evicted. Poor, LL she has been really nice and I would have love a reference from her. She has been done over by tenants before and her dad died recently. I don't want to give her heads up as it's too risky.

It's a shame about LL but if he carries on as you suspect he will she wil soon realise that he is a tosser and that's why you left.

Just to add my support and say you are doing really well.
Well done for having such a level head. Good plan.

I'm lodging myself here as someone who has read all of this thread so far and am immensely proud for you and willing your success. I have no advice or experience but, against the usual mumsnet way, am sending hugs and positive vibes. Do take care of you and your sons x