Now I'm really confused - help!

[DadIsSad]

I'm in a sexless marriage (all but - have had sex twice in the last 6+ years). We've been going to counselling, and I thought it was going well with much more intimacy, until the last session, where when DW was asked what she wanted from the relationship and couldn't really think of anything - except maybe to be left alone to read her book. Hasn't directly said anything about whether she fancies me (and I've not dared ask - a lot of my problem is putting off hearing bad news like this), but in her case I'm fairly sure her sex drive is minimal, as I don't believe she has ever masturbated. I'm not sure what good the counselling is doing any more, as DW seems to think it's just me who needs to change, when in fact whatever I do (and I've done a lot), there's always something else which I need to do before she'll want to have sex with me... were it not that our counsellor was busy saying to DW lots of things that I dare not about how our relationship won't survive without a sex life. I was actually quite surprised how forceful the reaction was to a suggestion from DW that the kids always came first (counsellor suggested that wasn't the case as kids also need their parents to have a good relationship, and sometimes that has to be the priority).

Though here's where it gets confusing and I turn everything I've said above on its head. We left the counselling not on that good terms - me upset as DW had given the impression she really wasn't interested in our relationship, I'd upset her by pointing out several times that it really did just come back to her not being interested in sex. A bit later in the day we talked a bit about the session, and she offered that actually she had been thinking about having sex with me, and would be interested if I'd agree to stop if struggling to climax (as happened last time we tried last year) when she stopped enjoying it. Not tonight, but sometime.

So fast forward several days in which I've been trying to reconcile what she said in counselling and afterwards. No signs appearing that it was any more likely to be tonight than any other night in the last 6 years. I'm being treated for depression, and it got to the point I was feeling really down about this (the drugs don't seem to help all that much) which I was sure must be apparent as I was being generally grumpy, so I confronted her last night with my confusion. We had a long conversation/argument which ended in her agreeing that we'd have sex some time in the next week (on same condition as before - which I happily agreed to, as I pointed out I don't enjoy that either)! Hadn't really got over the argument when we went to bed (in a way I feel I should have been really grateful and loving for such a commitment, but she still seemed upset and my moods just don't work like that). Today I've still mostly been down, and things are frosty - less intimacy than for weeks - so I'm not quite sure how sex is going to magically happen.

I'm also still confused - if she doesn't want to have sex with me, is she just going along with it to keep me happy? Did what the counsellor said finally sink in? I suppose it's a start, but have to wonder whether it's actually little better than going to a prostitute. Just can't see it being all that great if it happens, and I also have performance anxiety - it's not like if it doesn't work that well it doesn't matter as we'll just try again in a few days. I feel like I should be a lot happier than I am and not looking a gift horse in the mouth - is it just my depression stopping me from seeing straight?

Anybody help with my confusion and explain what's going on?

I can't begin to explain because I don't know what's underpinning this misery.

I really think it's a bad idea to have sex on such a highly conditional basis. Of course she's not going to come if she's doing it "because she should" and it'd be a minor miracle if you did, feeling on trial like that.

Has your wife always been less than enthusiastic about sex? Or did it start going that way after a particular life event?

I'm sorry you are going through this dadissad. Your wife seems to be putting a lot of pressure on you. The comment about being left alone to read is cold. Apart from lack of sex is there kindness, joy, warmth, intimacy, sharing in the marriage?

Well. OP you have been a commited and patient husband.

Rather than try and decipher and think about all the big things going on here - 1 rather understandable major thing for you - who knows for DW. I'm going to try and strike out in one direction-

It's not normal for a healthy adult to not have a libido to the extent that if there is no sex there is no masturbation or fantasy etc. Personally I feel that sex in a long term relationship becomes invariably tied in with all the 'other stuff' this can have major detrimental effects on sex lives. If you'll excuse me being so crass - sometimes I am so hormonally motivated to have sex I'm no better than a bitch on heat - it drives me to distraction. However, DH can make one misstep that leads on to a niggle and it just kills it - thing is I still want to have sex, just not with him because he pissed me off. So off I go and sort things out.

There is no magic wand. There is the necessity your wife sort herself out quite frankly. It is unfair to impose a celibate existance on another. Please try not to give mental space to your performance related concerns - with depression, lack of marital reciprocity, general anxiety I would be surprised if anyone was at their best. As a lady I would say it's not the ending it's the journey, whether that train travels through pen island or not.

She is willing to accept the benefits of your marriage and homelife and she owes it to you to work on her issues. If she does not want sex ever because she doesn't enjoy it she may find one on one professional help to work through why this is or she needs to tell you it's off the table and you go forward from there. There are many psychological issues relating to sexuality - but if she wants to be left alone to read her book, it says more is going on. Offering this meager carrot is insulting - she won't be coming into the intimacy with plans to work through things slowly and building up to a mutually fullfilling sex life. You get once to get you off her case. And as your wife she must know how damaging an emotionally void encounter with remarks about any performance will be. How can you go forward to expressing your desire for her intimately if everything about her is shut down to you. I think as well, you want sex but do you want her as she is behaving toward you now? You should not be grateful she's tossing you this scrap of closeness - you should see that she owes you the courtesy of admitting what is going on. I can see this sex sessio on the horizon just causing a deeper rift. Whatever I might suppose o her motivations it doesn't sound like it'll be pleasant for her and it wont be a gret experience for you.

I'm sorry OP, I really am. It sounds like she's checked out for some reason and wont even be honest with herself. If there are issues to confront that are painful then support can be offered but what she is doing is unfair in the extreme. Your counseller is correct but I think you haven't hit on the truth yet.

"It's not normal for a healthy adult to not have a libido to the extent that if there is no sex there is no masturbation or fantasy etc."

I made the mistake of suggesting she was abnormal - something she now brings up as one of the hurtful things I've said (along with me suggesting that I was thinking of leaving - I keep trying to point out that I was just being honest, I know saying these sort of things is stupid).

She's admitted in counselling that she's never had an orgasm - not exactly news to me. I'm not quite sure if the counsellor gets that by that she means never ever by any means, not just never when having sex with me. I can kind of understand why she's not that into sex and doesn't understand what's so powerful about it - I'd really love to make it better for her, but just don't know how (only my 3rd ever sexual partner, really didn't have a clue with the first, a bit better with the second, but DW I don't think has any idea what to ask me to do - it's not like you get lessons about this in school). Whenever I've tried in the past when we had sex semi-regularly she's got uncomfortable - don't know if I'm doing it all wrong or she just doesn't like the very sensations leading that way.

I should point out that my performance issues aren't with getting going, but with finishing. To think if I browse on here I find all the threads complaining about blokes finishing too quickly, something I've never had a problem with, but my DW doesn't like me taking my time like this :( (to be fair it's frustrating all round, but kind of hard to sort out when we don't ever have any practice, it's pressurised when we do, and I understand that, ahem, relieving my tension by myself, which is my only outlet, doesn't help). Though actually the previous 2 times we had sex I didn't have this problem, otherwise we wouldn't have 2 kids (we appear to have no problem with fertility).

I do think that maybe the ultimate answer is that she needs to sort out why it is that she isn't into sex, but I don't think she sees this as a big deal or that there's actually anything wrong with her. See first paragraph for why it's something I really can't bring up (I just keep hoping our counsellor will eventually get there).

Asexuality (no interest) isn't all that unusual. It's why asked if she's always been uninterested. Like everything in life, it's on a spectrum and there certainly are many folks with only a slight interest in sex. If your libidos are very badly matched and always have been, it means you can't have a 'normal' marriage as one or both of you must suffer :(

Antidepressants notoriously cause delayed orgasm. So can depression! Has it started since you became depressed?

Whenever I've tried in the past when we had sex semi-regularly she's got uncomfortable - don't know if I'm doing it all wrong or she just doesn't like the very sensations leading that way. This makes it sound as if you'd benefit from sex therapy. It won't help if your wife just isn't sexual, but would if the problems are mainly around approaches and/or techniques.

I'm not sure whether you're kidding yourself (understandably!) that things can be fixed with careful attention. Does your wife feel she'd prefer not to have anything to do with sex at all?

Sorry GB not expressed myself very well - what I meant was if you are an asexual person, that is something you know about yourself - so..why not lay it out clearly for your DH - not bf mind DH.

Lower or higher libidos are all part of the rainbow so to speak but this mental approach to possible 'just' asexuality is what I'm finding odd.

OP - telling her she's abnormal would be something I would find hurtful too. Asking what her needs actually are and how that is meant to affect you, her and the marriage is not.
Also sex when you are not mentally there is not fun. If it is taking longer then that is longer she has to 'endure' sensations that may be unpleasant as it is all begrudged. If she's thinking she can lie back and think of England and then finds she can't...some real honestly needs to happen here.

You can't just wait - either meet alone with your counsellor or just bite the bullet. Concur at the suggestion of sex therapy but you need to get to the real issue - because although this is it for you - I really can't see it is for her, it's a symptom of something(s) that need to be acknowledged, confronted and dealt with.

I don't know. I thought when we first got together we were both just as interested, and that didn't die off all that quickly. Not as regular as I'd like for quite a long time even before we had kids, but not to such an extent that I couldn't cope. Though she's said in counselling that it was never very regular or good, so I don't quite know what to believe. If I was going to pin it down to anything I'd say that DW's interest markedly decreased when she went on the pill. Something I noted at the time, but didn't know what other options we had, given that we'd had a split condom and she'd had a termination (neither of us wanted kids at the time), and we no longer trusted condoms. Though writing that I can see something which had never occurred to me before - presumably having the termination could have resulted in issues? Not something which has been mentioned in counselling, and I don't think I'd be thanked for bringing it up. In fact I feel a bit nervous mentioning it here even though in theory I'm anonymous.

The delayed ejaculation is something I had problems with in the distant past (looking back more than 6 years - as mentioned, it was a problem the last time we tried in November, but the previous 2 times we conceived without too much trouble), though I've never been particularly quick - from what I understand I normally take a lot longer than most. Not particularly depressed back then, though I guess I've always had a tendency that way, so it's possible I might have been down when I had problems. I was depressed in November (I keep meaning to ask why then - the most notable thing being that I was very down because I was injured and not able to go to an event that weekend I'd looked forwards to for ages - it almost felt like sympathy and very sweet in it's way until it all went wrong). However I've only been on drugs for a couple of months. Have actually changed prescription due to this issue (just in case!) and am on Lofepramine which is an old-fashioned tri-cyclic, and not supposed to cause problems - from personal experience it doesn't appear to. I think it's only SSRIs such as Citalopram which I was on before which have that affect - I can certainly tell the difference!

My wife says that she's not bothered about sex - happy enough to never have sex again, though she says she does enjoy it up to a point when we're doing it, so I don't think it's just lie back and think of England. The issue is that at some point it stops being enjoyable (almost certainly very close to the point where I stop just enjoying it and start worrying about the fact I don't seem to be getting any closer - not much fun for me at that point either, though I do at least usually get something out of it at the end).

"You can't just wait - either meet alone with your counsellor or just bite the bullet"
Sorry - I've got confused by this thread now - what are you referring to there?

Personally I'd really like to have sex therapy. As I mentioned it's not something you get taught in school, and I suspect that actually I'm probably a bit crap. Was actually something I was thinking when we first went to counselling, and so tempted to tick that box rather than relationship counselling (in reality I knew we had other stuff to fix in our relationship - the counselling has at least helped with that - and that DW probably wouldn't agree anyway).

I think you're over complicating this OP, I think you are simply in a relationship that is no longer a fully functioning one.
The depression probably set in as a result of this lack of intimacy, now the anti depressants are making you not be able to ejaculate, what a lot of misery, You have bent over backwards to make this work but maybe if you just hold your hands up, admit that it's not working any more and find someone who makes you the best you can be because you're compatible.
Don't say you're crap, sex is an animal thing, it comes naturally to people, don't grade yourself as crap when probably you just need to press the refresh button on your life an be with a woman who makes colours drat through your mind and bells ring in your stomach!
Good Luck

dart not drat!

I also think there's only so much energy you can throw at a problem before it's clear it isn't massively going to change, or if it does change (e.g. she's agreeing to sex very reluctantly), it's not what you actually want which is a partner who desires you and wants to have sex with you.

I can't see where this is all going, except in a bad direction, unless you can live without sex. I don't think having sex once every year or six months is going to be remotely fun for anyone, you or her, and I agree with you that sexual therapy (which starts with touching and caring not with penetrative sex) may be a good option.

But, the phrase flogging a dead horse comes into my mind. I couldn't live in a non-sexual marriage myself (although I mean sexual in the widest sense of fancying, cuddling all the way through to everything else) and would have to move on, for my own self-esteem.

Hmm, at least in terms of my use of the forums on here, I think it is a lot about my moods. There I was thinking that the drugs wouldn't be any use (in fact I'm not sure the ones I'm on right now are), but in reality I feel a lot better about things this morning for no obvious reason - well apart that DW did make an obvious effort to give me a kiss this morning (it's not just women who really appreciate the little things!), though I think I was feeling more positive before that, and despite having a really rubbish night's sleep (see my last posting time!)

I don't know, maybe I'm just being over optimistic this morning in contrast to my deep pessimism yesterday - you lot all seem to think it's worse than it feels right now. I suppose there is an element of not having the whole picture, but then I'm not sure if I do either, and I do try to be honest (to my DW as well as on here - though there are some bits of honesty best left unsaid, I certainly say some things on here I wouldn't ever say to her or in our sessions together). Though it is at least reassuring to have some women understand my perspective on this, when I get to think maybe I'm going mad.

Thanks for the help - I come on here as I don't have any friends I can talk about this with (or any friends at all really), and haven't yet managed to set up private individual counselling - 6 month+ wait for NHS, which my GP agreed seems like a total waste of time. Also whilst I'm on a few blokey hobby based forums, even including one where there are discussions about personal issues, I don't think anything comes close to here for really talking about stuff.

DadIsSad,

I could have written your post. Without trying to make things worse for you my stbxw and I haven't/hadn't have sex/made love for nearly 14 years until finally things got too much and (thankfully amicably) we decided to part last year.

It wasn't just the sexual side that had ceased as. I can't even remember the last time we had kissed properly. And the only hugs I got were off of female friends and guests when we met up!

I too was put on a low dose of ADs which I am going to come off soon.

I hope you can manage to succeed where I clearly failed. I just wish I had a magic wand, but unfortunately life isn't like that.

A lot of great advice is given on here, so I wish you well. Quite a few regulars gave me a much needed kick up the jacksie when I was getting too much(AF and SGB-looking at you.)

Keep us updated OP and good luck

I think pyscho-sexual therapy would be a good idea, but only if you both want to stay in the marriage and resolve the sex and intimacy issues.

If your wife has never had an orgasm at all then that does suggest a psychological block about sex and enjoyment. So I get that it's a pre-existing issue.

However what also occurs to me is that on top of this, your experiences of sex as a couple may have led to your wife associating sex with pain. The termination and her feelings about that need to come out into the open, especially at counselling. Often a therapist will do something called a genogram which is like a 'family tree' of all the relationships in the family. A terminated child is still shown on that genogram because that loss nearly always has relevance to the problems presenting.

Secondly, if delayed ejaculation has been a longstanding issue, this combined with limited arousal or arousal literally drying up - could be very painful for your wife.

So I don't think there is just one hurdle to climb here; there might be several. Pyscho-sexual therapy like couples therapy, often involves a few one-to-one sessions with the therapist, because you are individuals first and foremost and each come to the relationship with your own issues.

I would second what Charbon says about drying up being painful.
DH has what I call a "fragile orgasm" - in that if he misses his "moment", it can take ages for him to get there again, by which time I've usually all but lost interest, and this becomes physically evident by a lack of lubrication. There have been times when we've just had to stop because it's starting to seriously chafe.

I have to wonder whether this is affecting your wife's enjoyment - you fear that your ejaculation may not happen, so does she - neither of you are going into the sex act with a positive outlook, by the sound of it - and fear of something adds massively to the likelihood of it happening again. I don't know that that is exactly a "psychological block" - more a bad association of events.

Sex without orgasm and with the expectation of possible pain is not going to be enjoyable, and is something to be avoided wherever possible IME - so I can't say I blame her for not being keen on it. :(

Hope you both find a solution to this.

If you've only had sex twice in the last 6 years - the build up to sex would be quite pressurised. The longer you go without being intimate the harder it is to then become intimate. The fact she's thinking about it is good I think but the pressure to suddenly resume a sex life that hasn't been there is huge. It would be like starting all over again - scary..

Thanks again for all the useful comments - really has been very helpful. Just to answer a few specific points:

I do get the impression DW is interested in us staying together, and recent conversations suggest she is coming round to the idea that we do need to do something about our sex life. So I certainly aim to bring up the idea of moving on to sexual counselling. The only trouble being that we have no child care and currently DW is having to take time off work for us to go to the session we do (which is about the only possible time slot where we can get counselling which we can do). Understandably she's not keen about using up her holiday this way, and I'm not sure what she'll think of the idea of extending the number of sessions we have. We're also only managing once a fortnight for this reason, and with a break over Easter have only had 3 sessions after starting 2 months ago! I really wish there was a better answer, but we seem to have exhausted all other possibilities. I can't help but feel that those couples like us who find it difficult to fit counselling in are the ones most likely to need it.

I don't think lack of lubrication was a problem. Surely I'd have been able to tell, when if anything it felt like that wasn't a problem at all? Clearly the pressure to perform is likely to be a big psychological issue for both of us though.

Actually it's far, far worse than starting all over again - at least when you start you both have raging hormones driving you on so you don't worry so much about all that stuff (IME - though admittedly the last time I started a relationship was a long long time ago when I was much younger and not so screwed up).

...by no child care I mean no evening child care - we're going when youngest is in nursery (older one is at school).

How do you both regard 'sex' though? Sex is an enormous smorgasbord with penis in vagina (PIV) sex only one of the options. Have you had sex when PIV was completely off the menu? Are you able to ejaculate more quickly through other types of sex? If your wife has never had an orgasm, it's very unlikely that it will happen with PIV sex, but there's a chance she could with oral or manual stimulation, or by introducing toys.

Also, have you ever asked her if PIV hurts?

Have you tried setting aside an initial period of, say, a week where the agreement is that you will absolutely not, under any circumstances, have sex or touch each other's genitals? But make a commitment to try other kinds of touch, cuddling, massage, footsie under the table, holding hands as you walk. Maybe in some different places and under different circumstances from normal - i.e. if you normally just go to bed without interacting much and then attempt to initiate touch once you're both tucked up under the covers (big libido killer for me personally), then maybe start with just a quick cuddle from behind as one of you does the washing up, or she could rest her feet in your lap for a foot rub as you both watch TV. Just to try to find enjoyment in touch again, with sex being absolutely off the table in order to take the pressure off. Because if she doesn't entirely want sex, and she thinks that accepting any touch might make you think she does, then she'll gradually have been shutting you out more and more - she'll feel that she needs to permanently defend herself against any advances and she'll find it much harder to relax around the idea of getting physical on any level.

Finding pleasure in touch when under pressure is not easy, and I think that drive for pleasure is really important, because ultimately if she's not enjoying it, she won't want to do it. Orgasms really aren't the be-all and end-all - I didn't have one for years after I first became sexually active, and some women never do - but she needs to be able to guide you in some basic things that she likes. Forget genitals for a sec, does she like having her stomach stroked? Breasts nuzzled? Neck gently kissed? Would she rather take it sweet and slow or roll around like animals? Does she even know? It almost sounds like you need to get right back to the start and get to know yourselves and each other from scratch. I wish she'd spend some alone time with erotica and a toy or two, but if she's really never masturbated then she may not be up for that. :(

Lately I've started to think that sex isn't so much about emotional intimacy after all, or at least not always. It's more about fun. Maybe doing something enjoyable together, whether it's nice relaxed touching, eating a gorgeous meal or seeing a comedian who you both find hysterically funny, might lift the clouds a little and help her get into pleasure-seeking mode. Not that the hard psychological work doesn't need doing too, but it's pretty difficult to analyse your way to feeling horny.

My ExP had delayed orgasm, and even though I would enjoy the start of our sex sessions it would eventually become painful, even though lubrication was not an issue. I would give ExP a warning that I wanted to stop soon, and then have to tell him to stop when it became too painful. He would usually then get in a huff that he had not been able to finish. It put me right off sex.

Does your DW know that she can ask you to stop penetration at any time, and importantly, that you won't get in a strop or be upset if she tells you to stop? If not, why not?

It took me quite a while with my new DP to feel confident that I could turn down sex at any time without any repercussions. Even though this is completely the case with him, it took me a while to get rid of the little voice in my mind that was trying to stop sex before it started, because I was worried about what the reaction would be if I wanted to stop after it had begun.

Would it help to stop penetration and perhaps she could kiss and touch you while you finish manually? Would she do this and would it help?

"Have you had sex when PIV was completely off the menu? Are you able to ejaculate more quickly through other types of sex? If your wife has never had an orgasm, it's very unlikely that it will happen with PIV sex, but there's a chance she could with oral or manual stimulation, or by introducing toys.

Also, have you ever asked her if PIV hurts?"

No. Don't really know (have only really had "normal" sex with DW, and no problems that I can remember when I was younger), but no problem with masturbation. I thought I'd mentioned that AFAIK she's never masturbated, so it does get difficult working out what to do when I don't think she knows herself, and has in the past wanted me to stop after a while when I've tried manually stimulating her (I could just be doing it all wrong - I'm not hugely experienced myself). I don't think it helps that we're both a bit inhibited - I know she once went to an Ann Summers party and came back with a toy, but AFAIK it never came out of its box.

No - I think she would have told me though, as she's not afraid to mention when she doesn't like something, and I did stop as soon as she asked last time.

leguminous - we've set aside 6 months, and before that 3 and a bit years OK, so for a lot of that we weren't touching at all, but we have been doing so for the last month or so - I can't believe she thinks I'm expecting giving her a cuddle is likely to lead to sex. I am trying hard, because quite honestly I'm really enjoying just having that level of intimacy back. I'm not sure she really knows what she likes and enjoys, but I certainly did used to be able to press some buttons at some point. I'm sure she did enjoy sex on some level - the one thing I still remember about the last but one time we had sex nearly 4 years ago now (and the last time we enjoyed it) is that afterwards DW said "that was nice, we should do it more often" - clearly not quite nice enough .

thistledew - I hope she knew that, I did stop when asked, and it is something we've now directly discussed. Unfortunately last time I was upset - not like I was in a strop, and at least partially I was upset because I'd upset her, certainly I wasn't upset at her, as it wasn't exactly her fault. I can't really help the way it made me feel though! Looking at it rationally now though I'm more than happy with things that way, as I wasn't enjoying it any more either, just desperately trying to finish. I only hope I'm brave enough to ask and she agrees to PPIMT's suggestion, as that would probably be ideal all around - might even encourage DW to relax a little about asking me to stop if it comes down to that (still really, really hoping it doesn't, always assuming anything happens at all) if she knows it's not such a big deal for me.

I sometimes think that one partner uses sexual refusal as a way of controlling the other person & the relationship. The idea that everything has to be just right for them to bestow their gift upon you. They are in charge of the relationship in every way. (Obviously survivors of sexual abuse & people with real illnesses are different & can't help it). What do you think of that idea?

I think it is tellintg that she doesn't want to use up her holiday time to go for counselling. She doesn't prioritise this enough imo.

You can't make someone have sex with you when they don't want too or can't but there has to be give o nboth sides and not just take on one. That just isn't fair.

You sound lovely. I hope it all works out for you whether it is with your wife or not.