Now I'm really confused - help!

[DadIsSad]

I'm in a sexless marriage (all but - have had sex twice in the last 6+ years). We've been going to counselling, and I thought it was going well with much more intimacy, until the last session, where when DW was asked what she wanted from the relationship and couldn't really think of anything - except maybe to be left alone to read her book. Hasn't directly said anything about whether she fancies me (and I've not dared ask - a lot of my problem is putting off hearing bad news like this), but in her case I'm fairly sure her sex drive is minimal, as I don't believe she has ever masturbated. I'm not sure what good the counselling is doing any more, as DW seems to think it's just me who needs to change, when in fact whatever I do (and I've done a lot), there's always something else which I need to do before she'll want to have sex with me... were it not that our counsellor was busy saying to DW lots of things that I dare not about how our relationship won't survive without a sex life. I was actually quite surprised how forceful the reaction was to a suggestion from DW that the kids always came first (counsellor suggested that wasn't the case as kids also need their parents to have a good relationship, and sometimes that has to be the priority).

Though here's where it gets confusing and I turn everything I've said above on its head. We left the counselling not on that good terms - me upset as DW had given the impression she really wasn't interested in our relationship, I'd upset her by pointing out several times that it really did just come back to her not being interested in sex. A bit later in the day we talked a bit about the session, and she offered that actually she had been thinking about having sex with me, and would be interested if I'd agree to stop if struggling to climax (as happened last time we tried last year) when she stopped enjoying it. Not tonight, but sometime.

So fast forward several days in which I've been trying to reconcile what she said in counselling and afterwards. No signs appearing that it was any more likely to be tonight than any other night in the last 6 years. I'm being treated for depression, and it got to the point I was feeling really down about this (the drugs don't seem to help all that much) which I was sure must be apparent as I was being generally grumpy, so I confronted her last night with my confusion. We had a long conversation/argument which ended in her agreeing that we'd have sex some time in the next week (on same condition as before - which I happily agreed to, as I pointed out I don't enjoy that either)! Hadn't really got over the argument when we went to bed (in a way I feel I should have been really grateful and loving for such a commitment, but she still seemed upset and my moods just don't work like that). Today I've still mostly been down, and things are frosty - less intimacy than for weeks - so I'm not quite sure how sex is going to magically happen.

I'm also still confused - if she doesn't want to have sex with me, is she just going along with it to keep me happy? Did what the counsellor said finally sink in? I suppose it's a start, but have to wonder whether it's actually little better than going to a prostitute. Just can't see it being all that great if it happens, and I also have performance anxiety - it's not like if it doesn't work that well it doesn't matter as we'll just try again in a few days. I feel like I should be a lot happier than I am and not looking a gift horse in the mouth - is it just my depression stopping me from seeing straight?

Anybody help with my confusion and explain what's going on?

Im glad you like the sound of my idea. My husband and i do that quite a bit. I love watching him masturbate, i find it really sexy!

Was your wife sexually abused as a child or anything like that?

The fact that she has never masturbated makes me think she just doesn't have the urges.

Have the two of you tried oral sex?

OP, I haven't applied my usual Transactional Analysis tourniquet to your predicament yet, because I don't know whether it's relevant here. Just out of interest, would you please have a look at this summary of the "game" Frigid Woman?

This 'game' is a deadly serious power play, designed to keep the husband in a state of denial & resignation. It's not intended to terminate the marriage, although that often is the outcome. It's more of an unconscious 'script' being played out by a woman who learnt it when young, perhaps from her parents.

There is something about your posts describing your therapy and your conversations/relationships that neither of you are able to actually say how you really feel or what you really think - even in the safety of counselling there are a few things you are too frightened to say and you're hoping the counsellor will pick up on.

My marriage is far from perfect we've had a very rough time recently however in counselling we've had some very painful discussions within the first few sessions

I just get the impression that your wife wants the marriage to continue but without addressing any aspect of it that is uncomfortable/painful/difficult to hear etc etc.

God, garlic - are there really women like that? I mean, I don't know how I'm expecting you to know the answer there, but I'm still - that's just so manipulative!

Thumb, all the games in Berne's book are REALLY common - that's why he chose the examples! I have certainly played Uproar and Rapo in younger days (never third-degree Rapo, in my defence.)

They're meant to describe the unconscious scripts we act out. Although the compulsions are genuinely unconscious, we do express them verbally from time to time. Berne imagines us wearing sweatshirts with our core statements printed on them - usually two complementary ones, front and back. The Frigid Wife might wear an imaginary sweatshirt with "Men Only Want One Thing" printed on the front and "Catch Me If You Can" on the back.

Mine currently says "Valuable Advice Here" on the front and "I'm Worthless" on the back ... so I'd better switch the computer off for a bit

Are there wider issues? Is she resentful for other things going on? Have she communicated dissatisfaction about your relationship?

It sounds like she has withdrawn from the relationship emotionally to me. But if so, for what reasons?

You are focussed very much on the lack of sex but perhaps need to consider the wider picture.

She doesn't sound a very warm person, OP. Is she lovely to you in other ways? Does she seem happy to see you? What's her reaction if you touch her when you're out with her, for example if you're crossing the road and you touch her elbow to change direction? Does she flinch or move towards you?

Is she interested in you? Does she like to know what you think about things?

And contrary to popular belief, men are actually not entitled to sex in a relationship. It slightly disturbs me that the counsellor is telling your wife that the relationship won't survive if she doesn't have sex with you.

Reelingandupset - you're right - MEN are not entitled to sex in a loving adult relationship. Men AND women are unless there is MUTUAL agreement not to. The counsellor was no doubt just pointing out that sexless marriages mostly fail & effort needs to be made. Sexual needs are normal & healthy & sex is an expression of love. Without it humans feel unloved, unwanted & undesirable.

I must contest that midwife, I don't think anyone is entitled to sex at all - male or female. Yes it forms an important part of a mutual loving relationship if both parties want to. But it's not a right.

If one person feels coerced or guilt-tripped because he or she is not fulfilling their part of the bargain, that is not a constructive thing for the relationship and they will likely end up feeling much worse as time goes on.

The alternative is eventual separation so it has to be addressed if the couple want to stay together unless both are happy with a sexless marriage.

Agreed. It's clear that the OP is unhappy with this state of affairs. He is entitled to decide on balance that if things don't change, he would be so miserable that he would rather leave the relationship and seek a new partner. That is his right.

I just feel the need to take issue with the widely held belief that a partner is entitled to sex. Imo, this erroneous belief has led to many many women feeling pressurised into sex which they haven't actually wanted.

Op - I have name changed for this, because I'm writing this from the position of the wife.

For many, many years of my marriage I had not had an orgasm (15 years I'd say). Never knew what one felt like, 'enjoyed' sex, but never really got worked up over it and didn't feel the need for it. (Like your DW would have preferred to have no my nose in a book!)

The first time I had an orgasm was when DH was away, I had been reading a raunchy book by myself and used a vibrator. Weirdly, just before the orgasm I came close to stopping because it felt very odd, and I think I had some sort of emotional (and therefore maybe physical) resistance to actually having an orgasm. But I continued and did have an orgasm, and I was blown away by how amazing it felt. It took me having orgasms with a vibrator a few more times before it felt more 'natural'. Even now I rarely orgasm duingsex, and when I do certainly not in the same way, but I have the 'drive' for sex far more than I did before.

Now I had used a vibrator before, and it felt nice, but I hadn't ever used it long enough to give me an orgasm (tip - I have to use it directly on my clitoris or it doesn't work!) (Oh God, this really is TMI !!!)

I actually feel 'horny' now when I never used to.

I have no idea how you should approach this with your wife. I don't honestly know what approach of my DH's would have worked, it was just something I did on my own.

Hope this helps.

I think it's lovely that you're so devoted to your wife and want her to experience this side of life fully. She's blimen lucky to have a husband like you. She does call the shots but it sounds like that's the way your marriage works.

Take sex out of the equation; do you have fun as a couple without focussing on an orgasm? If you've waited this long to get some fire going then surely it's worth going back to basics and start some wooing on the premise that it DOESN'T lead to sex.

Take her to an amazing place. Come out of your comfort zones and stop obsessing over who's having an orgasm. There are a very rare few women who aren't capable of physically having an orgasm so eventually a referral from her gp to a gynaecologist may be an idea.

In the mean time, romance and snogging. Be teenagers again.

No one is "entitled" to a reasonable sex life no matter what but we all deserve it if we are good caring partners in a relationship with someone who claims to love us.

I don't think he's asking for people to completely slate his wife! I'm sure she cares they're just in one almighty rut!

You've had some good advice OP.

Child care permitting, and as has been suggested, I think a properly trained sensitive sex therapist is in order-couples counsellor really might not have studied enough sex modules as it were! (and from what you say your counsellor doesn't seem to have been able to make or explore any obvious links with you both about grief/fear or pregnancy/loss/lack of experience/lack of technique.

From your side as you probably know ADs can be a cause of or add to delayed ejaculation.

From both your sides as you say-we are often not taught how to pleasure ourselves or other people and sometimes we do need instruction/guidance.

Its not unusual at all for women not to have experienced orgasm until a very late age. Its usually just a case of not knowing how to rather than it being a gynaecological or psychological problem although it can grow into a psychological problem.

Delayed ejaculation problems IME can make you withdraw as you feel rejected-and if your wife has never experienced orgasm that is double reason why she is not motivated, add any ongoing/unresolved grief-third reason. And of course as she now seems to be holding the power its really not going to help you to let go.
But it really does sound reasonable and sensible for her to ask you to stop if you are struggling to orgasm-however I think that you need a sex therapist to guide you and help you to agree on whats okay as its quite complicated stuff to negotiate especially when you've both built up resentment.

Again, midwife, you point to an obligation - we all deserve sex if we behave in a caring manner.

No one deserves sex. No one owes sex to anyone because they deserve it. People have mutual sex if both people want it.

That's how I feel. Part of the marriage vows if you believe in that sort of thing is with my body I thee honour. I feel it is my duty to try. No one is in the mood all the time of course & childbirth or illness affect things but to completely refuse for years??!!!! It's a deal breaker for me (perhaps I'm a nympho?! )

I think perhaps if you've never been coerced into sex and it's always been mutually desired, what I'm saying may not feel relevan.t

But many men have an expectation - that it's their duty or their right to have sex. And in fact society does reinforce this view.

But if you are a woman who doesn't want it but feels obligated due to these expectations and beliefs and goes ahead anyway because she feels like she should, that can have a profoundly negative and devastating effect on her.

I've never been coerced into sex but I have been the unwanted partner with a DH withholding sex & affection & it hurts. That's all I know

Reeling, I'm a bit confused as to why you're pursuing your point? OP hasn't said anything to suggest he feels 'entitled' or has tried to coerce his wife

Mutually-consenting and, one hopes, mutually enjoyable sex is part of the marriage contract. Some couples mutually agree to leave sex out of it, but shared sex is part of the default agreement. That's a shared expectation, not an entitlement.

Should have said "not a one-sided entitlement".

Garlicbutty, I mentioned it because the OP said the counsellor said the relationship won't survive without a sex life. And I was concerned that would put pressure on his wife to have sex, even if she didn't want it.

I'm not suggesting the OP has actually coerced his wife.

See I just don't see how as part of a marriage contract that you are signing up for mutually enjoyable sex forever amen. A million and one things could change and affect your desire for sex during the course of a marriage.

Is it OK if I butt in here for a second?

Reelingandupset - I really appreciate your first post. Like many others on this thread, you're comments are getting close to the mark and are helpful.

However, I'm not really sure what the point of pursuing the entitlement to sex line is. I certainly don't feel entitled - it doesn't work like that. In fact if you've read the whole thread you might have seen my comment about my concern that DW doesn't really want to have sex with me and (assuming it does actually happen) is just going along with it to keep me happy, which isn't what I want at all (if anything the actual physical act is almost a side-show - what I want is for my DW to want me!)

I don't know whether I've misinterpreted what our counsellor said, but my impression was that the counsellor was just trying to point out a bit of reality to my DW, who it seems is perfectly happy with the status quo. The thing is, at some point in the future I'm fairly sure I will leave if nothing changes - not because I feel entitled or deserve sex, but no matter how much I rationalise it, the situation is making me unhappy (the pills can only do so much), and at some point I have to make a decision on what I'm going to do to change my own life - I don't have all that many options available.

So what is so wrong with the counsellor saying that? I don't think anybody is suggesting that DW should have sex with me even though she doesn't want to, simply that DW needs to put some effort into exploring ways to change our situation and the way she feels if she wants to keep what she has.

Maybe if you want to have a general discussion about men's entitlement to sex you could find somewhere else?