Affair with teacher 20 years ago - too late to complain?

[Berts]

Not sure if this should be here or in Ethical Dilemmas really. I have namechanged.

20 years ago I had a relationship with a teacher at school. When it started, he was 35 and I was (almost) 16. We were together for four and a half years and were engaged to be married, but I couldn't tell my (hugely religious) parents and I was massively bullied at school when it leaked out, as these things inevitably do. We first became friends when I was fourteen, when I stole a knife from his classroom to try to kill myself, so he knew I had problems in myself and at home. It was totally messed up.

Now, in my mid-thirties myself, I can see how totally wrong the whole thing was. I am angry at this guy for being such an emotionally immature fuckwit. I mean, really, who in their right mind hears a 16 year old child promise to love them forever and thinks that's a promise they can take to the bank!

However, here's my real problem: a couple of years after I left school, I found out through a friend whose husband (a former student at school with us) had gone back to work at the school, that a lot of the teachers knew about the affair while I was still at school. And they did... nothing.

This includes teachers who I had confided in about problems I was having at home who knew that I had a chaotic homelife and was self-harming. They saw what was happening with this guy and just did nothing at all. Not one person so much as took me aside for a quiet word or tried to find out what was really going on. Many of those teachers are still working there now.

I'm in two minds: part of me wants to leave it alone as it was such a horrible part of my life, so destructive, I don't want to revisit. But another part of me is so angry that these 'responsible adults' saw me in harms' way and just thought 'meh'. I think their attitude was that I was slutty and therefore it was my fault (actually, I was a virgin, acting out by dressing slutty).

I don't want the stress of pursuing a formal complaint, but I'm tempted to contact the current vice-principal, who I hear through contacts is a good guy (and unconnected with these past events) and have an off the record chat about the issues with the school's pastoral care.

Is it worth it?

Yes, Cailin, I agree. Martha, there is no possible benefit to enacting a mock-up hostile trial on the OP. It is not helpful. I'm sure it's possible to explain that lawyers would interrogate without taking on the role ourselves before time.

Sudanim gives some excellent advice.

I cant get over the amount of judgmental people on here yes it happened a long time ago but it is very normal to affect you much later on you get on with life and then it hits you.

Walk in somebodies who's been there shoes [any sort of abuse] then judge.

Berts, I'm so sorry you went through this. Of course it was abusive - you were so vulnerable.

The only thing in your post I wonder about is why it's the other teachers knowing that has made you want to pursue this (not saying that you shouldn't). I just wonder if you are still fully unable to feel anger at this man (and your parents for failing to protect you?) . It's pretty hard to know what those teachers knew through hearsay and you might get the sort of hostile reaction that some of the other posters are predicting.

It sounds as though what you need (regardless of what you decide about the original situation) is to someone listen to the grief of the child that you were. It sounds as though you still need that. It's not too late to get some care and love to that 16 year old because you are still carrying her with you.

Nyac - The OP says the relationship started before she was 16. She does not say they had sex before she was 16. You are assuming they did. If you read the full post, the OP talks about other teachers being aware of what was happening and not caring because she was slutty. At that point she says I was a virgin. It is not at all clear whether she is referring to the period when she and the teacher were "friends" or when they were in a relationship.

If they had sex before she was 16 it was illegal. If they waited until she was 16 it was not. If it happened today and she was under 18 and still attending the school where he taught when they had sex it would be illegal but at the time it was not.

I agree that what happened was wrong and that the school seems to have let the OP down. But we only have one post from the OP. It is not clear from that whether or not an offence was committed.

Just to make it clear, I agree that what happened was abuse and was completely wrong.

I think part of the problem with this discussion, and why people are getting so angry is that there is a distinction between something being immoral and wrong, and it being illegal.

In our society there are lots of behaviours widely regarded as immoral; for example adultery, but they are not illegal.

There are behaviours regarded as immoral and illegal, for example rape.

There are behaviours that are illegal, but not regarded as immoral; for example car parking without a permit.

What the OP describes is something that was immoral, wrong, and a breach of trust.

At the date the behaviour described took place it was illegal if and only if she had sex with the man under the age of sixteen, she has not been completely explicit about that. He might have been careful for example to wait until she passed the magic age. (Which, if so, while putting him legally in the clear could make him even more morally culpable if it was a cold, seducer's, calculation)

Her question seemed to me to be about what kind of redress she could get; that depends on what the precise details were as to whether she has a legal route. She needs advice. She needs it from a professional in the area. I would suggest that she contact her local rape crisis centre who may be able to help directly (They take a commonsense broad view of what they are there to help with and tend not to get hung up on legal definitions) or refer on.

So what has been described to us was a wrong; but what can be done about it is not clear, and that if she wishes is what she needs to find out.

I think the legality of it all is a red herring! The 2003 Act did not suddenly make teenagers more vurnerable or place teachers in a unique position of trust. Thus has always been so. Whether a criminal offence was commited or not makes not one jot of difference to the OP. Yes, it will determine whether a prosecution can take place but her anger and pain is the same either way.

She is (rightly) angry because it has come to light that so many other people whose primary concern should have been her welfare knew what was going on and none of them stepped in to put a stop to it. She had obviously somehow made peace with her abuser and their relationship but finding out that others knew about it and did nothing has brought out all her current emotions.

Berts, I really think you should get some good quality counseling. If you were having sex before 16 and you feel you would like that addressed then do speak to the police and act on their advice. I can understand why you want to speak to the current HT and it may well make you feel better if he/she can reasure you that these days things are very different. However, if what you are looking for is some sort of discipline heaped on those you feel were compliant then that simply isn't going to happen.

Alternatively, you could write a letter to one of those teachers still there and explain how it still affects you and ask why nobody stepped in at the time. Perhaps one of them would be willing to meet with you to discuss this. Maybe the current HT or your friends DH can facillitate that. I honestly think being able to say aloud to one or more of those teachers that you were a disturbed young girl who needed help will be your best therapy. Though of course, this may never happen. Good luck with it all.

I do think that we need to leave the legal side of things as a side issue. OP needs help, some therapy and info on how to obtain that more than anything. She's dealt with this on her own for 20 years: the least this forum could do is to show some compassion in helping her. I am really glad the majority here are doing that. :)

Bluepetticoat should try to be a little more consistent: This is what she said on another thread.

At 16 when you met your partner you were still almost a child.

Sorry everyone to have abandoned the thread for so long - sick, teething child and my DH is away so I'm on my own!

Thanks to everyone who's been offering such support, especially Thatlldo, dictionarydiva, Video and LRD, and those who've posted links and suggestions for counselling and support.

I thought I had made it clear in my OP, but I don't wish to make a formal complaint or get 'revenge' (although I do sometimes wish I'd bump into him so I could kick him in the nuts!). I don't think he's a serial abuser, just a really emotionally immature man who thought it was normal and reasonable to have a relationship with a teenager. I have asked around since, and he doesn't seem to have moved on to any other young girls.

Besides, I burnt all the evidence years ago in an attempt to 'get over it and move on'.

I'm not sure what I want really, other than just to find somewhere to express how angry I am. I suppose the reason I've been thinking of talking to the current HT at the school is because I think the total lack of pastoral care shown towards me indicates a worrying culture in the school that should be addressed, and many of the same teachers are still in place. What I would like would be to know that someone was looking at the current faculty and making sure they are taking proper care of all the kids, with maybe some retraining for those with the wrong attitude.

As many have pointed out, it would be impossible for me to broach this without the current HT being obliged to take formal action, so maybe that's not the path for me - I couldn't deal with the stress of a formal court process.

To clarify some other things, our relationship started a couple of months before my 16th birthday, but he deliberately held off from it becoming fully physical until after I turned 16 because, as he put it, 'I don't want to go to jail'. I lost my virginity to him a month after my 16th birthday.

We got engaged when I was 17, but it was always secret. He taught me at GCSE and A Level. My parents didn't know about the relationship until years later, when it was all over. I moved away for university after school and he would visit me there.

I ended it when I was 20. I had grown up and changed and he - obviously - hadn't. He then badgered me to get back with him for a year or so until eventually I stopped giving him my forwarding address - university years, I was moving house a lot and working abroad in the summers.

At that time, it was legal to have a relationship with a pupil over 16, but it was against school rules and definitely a sackable offence (and would bein every school, I'm sure). Also, I went to Catholic school, so it was also against the school's religious ethos.

He was divorced with two kids, who are now grown up, and often mentioned that he couldn't afford to get sacked because he was completely financially supporting his ex-wife (who didn't work). I spent most of my time at school petrified that we would get found out, he would be sacked and it would all be my fault.

I guess there are various reasons that those feelings are resurfacing now: I'm now the age that he was then; I teach at university and - looking at the 18 and 19 year olds I look after - I see how young and vulnerable many of them are and can't imagine starting a relationship with one of them; I've recently had a daughter. Also, I'm now in a much better place than I was in my teens and twenties and I find a lot of the things that I've refused to think about for years are resurfacing.

Also, my sister came round for dinner recently and - after much drink had been taken - she started pushing me to go to the police, complain to the school and get 'closure'. Not what I want, but it did start me thinking. I'm more angry with the staff who did nothing to protect me than I am with that stupid, immature manchild.

And yes, even when it's not illegal, I do think that all men in their thirties or older who start relationships with teenage girls are emotionally immature fuckwits. No matter how well-balanced, mature, responsible or intelligent a sixteen year old girl is, she does not have the maturity that comes with experience and cannot have a balanced relationship with someone who has already left home, paid bills, worried about bills, travelled, got and lost jobs, had previous relationships and done all the other stuff that makes you an adult.

In my experience, older men who go for younger girls/women tend to like to be in charge, are often manipulative and prefer someone with less confidence and experience to a grown up who knows her own mind.

BluePetticoat, you may have known girls who remained married to much older teachers who they started seeing at 16/17, but that doesn't make those relationships healthy. Plenty of dysfunctional relationships limp along and work well enough for years. I myself later married a much older man in my twenties and everyone thought we were blissfully happy until the day I left him six miserable years later. Girls like me learn to make our own happiness and not rely on the man you're with.

For everyone else, it's easy to get dragged down by the few weird messages, although I understand where they're coming from. We're raised with the idea that girls bring it on themselves, and that's why girls like I was blame themselves and - for years - can't see that this was an abusive situation, not just a bad relationship.

I just think that if you see a child who is throwing themselves headlong into a bad situation, you put out a hand to stop them, not to take advantage. A 16 year old girl who is throwing herself at much older men is fucked up, and if that older man is a good person, he will gently stop her from hurting herself, not start dating her. I'm really angry that no-one stopped me from hurting myself. I guess that's all I wanted to say.

Berts
I think you have answered your own question.

Bringing this to the attention of the authorities (which is what would happen if you spoke to the HT) would start a ball rolling that you could not stop.

The very most that would happen to those who you are most angry at right now - the other teachers - would likely be a reprimand, I would think.

And I do think that you are transferring your anger onto them - it is totally normal to be angry at them, they should have protected a vulnerable teen in their care. The main person at fault is, however, your ex teacher/fiance.

You sound fabulous, btw and are going to be a great mum to your daughter.

Not all men Berts I was 18 when I met DH I'm now 41 he's 54 he has always been a wonderful sensitive man I was just getting over a nearly 3 year 'relationship' with a man in his 40's when I met him and that was so wrong looking back.

I'm glad you came back Berts, I was worried that some of the posts might have upset you and made you not want to post again.

Having been abused myself I can totally understand the desire to ask those who should have helped you why they didn't. Unfortunately the answer is that people "don't want to get involved." On top of that we live in a misogynistic society that sees women as temptresses no matter what age they are. I have seen girls described as "slutty" by teachers at ages as young as 10 and 11, with no questions ever being asked about why that girl is behaving that way. As you can see from some of the posts on this thread, there is still the tendency to believe that even young, vulnerable teenage girls are to blame for inappropriate relationships and that to call the abusive men to account is an overreaction.

I'm glad you can see that what happened was abusive and that you aren't to blame. Your anger at those teachers is healthy and warranted but chances are if you looked for an explanation you wouldn't get one.

How do you feel these days about what happened?

These days I just feel angry and - irrationally - guilty. It's something my DH pointed out and I didn't realise, that I still feel guilty for dumping him and breaking his heart. Not rational, but there you go.

And BluePetticoat, I don't feel 'embarassed' that other teachers knew - what a bizarre assumption. As I stated in my OP, I feel angry that they didn't behave like responsible adults. Why would you infer that I was embarassed?

If I feel at all bad about it, I feel angry with myself that when one of these teachers came up to me at a mutual friends wedding about five years after I left school, and had a good drunken laugh about how he always thought I was with 'Mr Teacher', I didn't tell him what a cunt he was and call him on his behaviour because I was too busy denying that anything happened. And I feel guilty that I didn't do anything to ensure that the culture of that school changed so that other kids would be better looked after.

I didn't have a lovely happy time and then look back at it now and go 'hang on, that was a bit wrong - suddenly I feel angry and I want revenge!' I had a miserable, messed-up time, a near nervous breakdown and a long time dealing with the aftermath.

You ask why I stayed with him so long if it wasn't a healthy relationship. Well, two main reasons: I was lonely, unhappy and desperate for love and affection; and after throwing myself into a relationship that was so totally and utterly wrong on every level I had a lot invested in believing that it was 'true and everlasting love'. I stayed in the relationship long after I should have gone, because I didn't want to believe I'd gone through everything I'd gone through and risked getting disowned by my entire family for something that - in the end - wasn't worth it.

You also ask why I got bullied. You have to ask? For someone who claims long experience of working in schools, you demonstrate very little insight into the behaviour of teenage girls. There were a bunch of bullies who were picking on a friend of mine. I stood up for her and told them to leave her alone. They turned on me and then they found out about the relationship. They knew my life would be pretty much over (from my teenage perspective) and he would be sacked if it came out, so they held that knowledge over my head so I had to sit there and take it while they told me what a fucking slut they thought I was and taunted me for hours and spat on me. So yes, I'm angry at a lot of people. I'm angry in all directions.

And as some have pointed out, I'm probably misdirecting my anger because I still find it hard to be angry at someone I cared so much about for such a long time. I'm confused. And right now, I'm exhausted. so I'm off to have a cup of tea.

And I'm going to stop focussing on the one or two unsympathetic, or frankly weird posts and reread those that have been helpful and supportive (CailinDana and EternalOptimist)

And sorry if I was overgeneralising about older men - I know I have a jaded perspective. I still think those that are nice are the exception though, but all relationships are unique.

Berts understandable mines lovely and is so supportive especially now I'm pursuing a case against my abuser.

Regardless of the moral stance here, I don't think it is right to denounce all age gap relationships as another poster has said.

I know someone who is about to marry a man she met when she was placed- at 16- in his workplace an work experience. He is a professional and 12 years older.

I had a long relationship/engagement which I ended with a man 14 years my senior when I was 21. He was my line manager.

I think everyone feels angry at the mistakes they made when they were young. That is a perfectly natural way to behave. I wish I could have forseen some of the messes I got myself into. That's life. Maybe OP your anger should have been directed at your parents because they were responsible for your well being. They did nothing but the fact you kept it from them shows you knew they would object- so I suppose in some ways they weren't to blame.

Bluepetticoat needs to read a bit about emotionally abusive men if she thinks that asking Bert why she stayed so long is a valid question.

I did a series of blog posts about abuse recently, with interviews with rape survivors and every single one of them told me they should have left earlier but felt they couldn't. Shame, guilt, emotional blackmail from their partners ... It is very common.

Blue
don't you see the difference between a confused and vulnerable 15 year old girl and a 21 year old woman?

I know several couples with large age gaps - all of them split up now. I am not saying that they never work, but I do think that they can be more difficult than when a couple are closer in age.

Berts if you would like to join this thread, please do. Everyone there will understand what you're talking about and they won't grill you or ask you to justify anything.

Berts, a completely different situation but a few years ago my mother was killed by a drunk driver. I struggled with my anger towards him (still do) but I also wasted a lot of emotional energy being angry at the people she had met that evening. Plans had been changed last minute to suit another woman and I was so angry for so long at what I saw as her petty reasons for changing the plans which then led to my mother being where she was at that time.

It was completely irrational of me and of course, the teachers in question are more to blame here than my mother's colleague was but, I think from reading your posts that it's a similar sort of thing. You struggle to still be angry at him but have recently found a new outlet for your anger. What that says to me is that you've been keeping a lid on all this anger and upset for too long and you need some professional help to help you move on. It helped me tremendously. Good luck.

Glad to hear from you Berts.
Would just like to echo what optimist said, you sound amazing. I'm sure you are a strong and sensitive mum, able to provide every protection and communication your daughter will need. Be proud, and know there is help and support out there for you.

Just to let everyone who's been lovely and supportive know, I wasn't sure it was the best thing to post and spend an afternoon dwelling on upsetting things, it's been really difficult, but I have just been giving my daughter her tea and I felt lighter than I have done in a long time, so thank you to you all x

I'm glad it helped Berts :)