False accusations of domestic violence (long, sorry!)

[ebmummy]

Grr, just spent 30 minutes typing this out, only to lose it all!

Ok, so I have a dear friend who I have known for 25+ years (since we were 5!). I was his lodger throughout his 3 year marriage to his wife until his divorce in 2009. Basically he had an arranged marriage with his woman in India (he's Hindu). She was a complete bitch, really nasty to him, me and my dbf (now dh). She hit him and was physically, verbally and emotionally abusive. On one occasion, she was so unhinged I taped the incident on my phone and called the Police, but nothing was done cos he wouldn't press charges).

Long story short, she started pilphering their joint account (he was the only one who worked), and moved in with another fella. She also stole items from the house (including from me) and left. He filed for divorce, and Immigration tried to deport her (she was on a marriage visa) but she claimed domestic violence. She thus allowed to stay, despite the fact she couldn't prove it, HE could. And as I was there all the time (studying for my PhD), I could verify he was never violent towards her (he's the kindest gentlest guy I know, apart from DH!)

Anyway since then she's been going around his close tight-knit community saying he's impotent, he's not a man, that he stole her gold (he managed to hold onto some of the gold that HIS family gave to them as gifts for their wedding). He wants to meet someone new, but can't cos of the mud-slinging (he's married the guy she moved in with btw). Is there anything he can do? Obviously he's a long-time dear friend and want to see him happy as well as DH and I being fed-up of him moping around our house every weekend cos of what this spiteful woman is doing

and i bet she didn't even import him for the purpose math.

i don't condone dv ever.

however i don't believe that importing a spouse from the other side of the world in a country who clearly is coming because they want a passport not because they love you, a stranger - how can they love a stranger, and is clearly coming purely because they want that passport and money, is the recipe for a good marriage.

i'll swap you a passport in exchange for you coming living in my house and having sex with me attracts either not very nice people who'll do anything to get what htey want or extremely disadvantaged people who don't see themselves as having any choice.

neither is a good recipe for marriage.

especially when you're in love with another woman but dump because mummy wouldn't approve but fancy having a 'wife' so i'll just get one from india.

hopefully the man has faced his own part in his life and maybe learnt to put love and attachment ahead of mummy and convenience.

and maybe learnt that wives aren't like washing machines, you can't fancy having one for convenience and go on a shopping trip and 'buy' one.

swallow, arranged marriages are a whole topic entirely. I could go to lengths to say how much we were all surprised (and I personally was shocked) when he did what he did but obviously it was his own business, and yes you are right in that he paid for it in the end. I am still his friend though, regardless.

math, how do you know he wasn't in physical danger? What would you classify as 'real physical danger'? Is ea, and hitting him with things and throwing things NOT count as dv? I filmed this one incident for proof. I had called the Police already and was trying to talk to her. Say I didn't film it and the Police came, and she said she was attacked. WHo would you believe? The little petite lady, or the big guy? Actually, don't answer that, you've already revealed that men are bigger so 'don't hurt'. So they can 'really' be victims of dv. You make it sound like it was always the 3 of us, and I'm CONSTANTLY filming her abusing him. It was the one incident after months of SEVERAL incidents, which I saw and heard. Of course there were incidents where other people were present-my engagement party she very LOUDLY and verbally abused dear friend. More than 50 people were witness to this. Nobody filmed it but it still happened. Again (I think this is the third time I'm posing the question to you!), if you were lodging with a close female friend, and her husband was being abusive, would you not advise her to go to the Police? Would you not obtain proof after being witness to it for 3 years? Or would you leave a 'grown' woman to figure out her 'big-girl relationship' all by herself cos it would be 'forcing the issue wrt dv' and she 'wasn't in physical danger'?
I think the point I'm trying to make is would your views change if my friend was female?

you said it wasn't an arranged marriage before and all his own choice.

No swallowed, I said it wasn't a forced marriage. There is a difference. They were introduced and they both decided to get married of their own accord. I don't understand it myself, but it's his culture so his decision.

swallowed, agree completely with you btw that marrying people from abroad especially poorer countries attracts dodgy people (obv have paraphrased). Also agree with the fact that the marriage couldn't POSSIBLY start off with love. But though we all (gently and respectfully) expressed surprise and caution he still did it anyway.

I am inferring from the fact that you carried on filming and didn't rush to his aid that he wasn't in danger. In effect, I am trusting your judgement here.

You are contradicting yourself about filming the dv, and I did not say you were 'constantly' filming anyone either -- you yourself said upthread that you filmed more than one incident. How many incidents did you film?

You sound as if you and this woman carried on a relationship of mutual antagonism over this man's head as if his feelings and his existence were just a sideshow, and as if you have a serious axe to grind about men and dv no matter how the man feels about it. Would you not feel, since this man wasn't inclined to report it all to the police, and since he wasn't in physical danger (or you would have stepped in) that this was a matter of his culture -- 'I don't understand it myself, but it's his culture so his decision.' Why not leave him to sort out his own relationship then? He wasn't in danger or you would have stepped in to physically help..

Here's what I said about women and dv, and I stand over it:
'Generally, if a woman is being clobbered the attacker has a height and weight advantage and also the advantage of being the aggressor/advantage of surprise, so the physical effects tend to be more severe.'
Where is 'don't hurt' in that?

There is a far higher likelihood of a woman being seriously hurt by an incident of dv perpetrated by a man, so if I was in a position to know and advise, I would say please put your safety first, I would offer alternative accommodation, and I would offer to be there for her in any way that would help. But I would also recognise that it takes on average seven attempts for a woman to finally break free of an abusive relationship and I would absolutely not attempt to strongarm her away against her will no matter how wrongheaded her will seemed to me to be. If I thought there was immediate physical danger then I would get involved physically and if I saw an incident of physical abuse I would call the police, but if the woman herself asked me specifically not to I would hesitate. How much can you do without taking over someone else's life?

I would not be lodging with a newly married couple either but that is a different question. No matter what my circumstances were, I think I would move mountains in order to give newlyweds a little space for themselves, especially if I had a long friendship with one or the other.

math, where did I say I filmed more than one incident? It was the once.

That's fine that you wouldn't lodge with a newly married couple. For me I didn't honestly care who I lodged with. I needed somewhere close to the city centre, and df offered cos he needed the cash. Without meaning to sound rude, I honestly don't think it's any of your business. As I said to a previous poster, it has been duly noted that you wouldn't do what I did. It has also been duly noted that you wouldn't help your friend seek advice from the Police if regardless of the fact you are witnessing ea and dv, and your friend asked you to leave her alone (which btw my friend never did, just that he was embarrassed and ashamed of going to the Police), then you would. I would also like to bring to your attention that what may not be 'dangerous' to you maybe to others...

ebmummy: You made a mistake posting a thread about a male victim of domestic abuse on Relationships. As you are seeing, every conceivable detail of your story will be picked apart to find any means possible to traduce both yourself and the man in question.

I suggest going to another part of the forum to seek advice/support.

notdavid you've hit the nail on the head. I just cant believe such views exist. This event happened. I was there! So people can pick all they want. They still can't come up with a valid argument to excuse it. Df actually called his solicitor today to try and take steps against her so he's getting some help which's good. Thanks for your post :)

OP

get him to call Mankind

www.mankind.org.uk

National helpline: 01823 334244

I am struggling to recognise my words or my points in any of your paraphrases. I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing turned out to be completely different from the way you see it.

math - 'it might have been the making of him'. Did you honestly say that? About a person who is a victim of dv? Really?

We are talking about a man who wouldn't marry a woman he felt close enough to and fond enough of to be with for 7 years because he felt his mum wouldn't approve, and who decided to marry a complete stranger instead. Making his own way through this dv situation might have made him a stronger person able and willing to live his own life, and not one who mopes in the OP's house every weekend (which even she finds annoying) and seemingly either unable or unwilling to get himself get past all of this. Taking the decisions and insights that might have developed his own sense of self out of his hands and forcefully urging him to bring matters to a head has backfired spectacularly for both this man and for the OP.

I personally wish I hadn't had to take the journey through ea and dv that I took, but since I took it, I can look back at the hard won lessons and be sure I will not be down that road again.

Well you have certainly opened my eyes - I had no idea that attitudes like yours were still in existence, far less appropriate to be aired in such a shameless fashion - that how a person has behaved prior to abuse can have any bearing on whether they deserve help during periods of abuse. Is that what you are saying? And as a survivor of dv? I'm honestly astounded.

And I'm pleased that you feel you have learned your lesson from your experience, but isn't that just slightly insulting to the hundreds and thousands of women who have gone from one abusive relationship to the next, due to their destroyed self esteem etc?

I think the difficulty coming out in this story is that the wife seems to have been in a very vulnerable situation herself, moving from India in with a man who suddenly decided he wanted an arranged marriage, and moved her in with two of his very long-standing friends. This is a far from ideal set-up. It's not the cause of DV as that rests with the wife herself (who needs to be held legally to account), however, I can't help seeing her as vulnerable in a different way, as it appears very much one against three. She then behaved appallingly and continues to do so, but it doesn't negate her original vulnerability.

The woman's original vulnerability, while undeniable as a possibility, should bear no relevance whatsoever on the subsequent dv. How many times have we read or even written, that a male abuser's difficult relationship with his parents/work induced stress/previous damaging relationship/, is no excuse for his abusive behavior towards his partner. We can't have it one way for one gender and not the other.

And fwiw, this female does not sound to me as though she is a particularly vulnerable type, given her underhand tactics wrt the false dv accusations, her ability to find an immediate stand in to take the OP's df's place, or any of her other behavior. That, obviously is only my opinion.

LilBlonde- I agree, which is why I say clearly in my post that the man should seek legal protection/redress for that DV and/or any current harrassment.

But the OP didn't post just for legal advice about DV, she posted the whole situation and asked about she could help him move on, finding a new relationship, the emotional side of things. I suggested that she support him appropriately (e.g. supporting him on the phone to get legal advice) and spend less time worrying about his relationships, I also think living with a newly-wed couple, where you are the three great friends with one new wife from a different country and culture would have been a great strain on a marriage, irrespective of whether she was a nice lady (as she turned out not to be).

Fair enough mumsy. Some of the other attitudes on this thread have been appalling unfortunately though.

Whilst I agree with some of the points your raise Mumsy, I have to say that it was only me lodging there, not Dh. He stayed over sometimes, he wasn't always there though. Secondly, she spoke perfectly good English. Also, obviously I lived there but she has lots of family here, and there were often visitors for her. Obviously living with a newly married couple isn't an ideal set-up but I don't see how it excuses what she did. They never asked me to leave at any point, and in fact ex-w used to say my room was too big, and they were going to partition it and rent the other part out too. My manager at work is married to a Pakistani man and lives with her in-laws. She says it's quite common to do so. Granted I'm not family, but I don't think living with others is ABNORMAL in the Asian culture.

They are only appalling if you don't read what is posted and instead put words in other people's mouths.

Take away the DV. Imagine the OP had posted about a man who had an ordinary unhappy, unfulfilling marriage. Imagine she said by way of filling in the background that he had dumped his girlfriend of seven years and gone abroad to find (through an agency? how do these things work anyway?) a bride that his mother might like and had quickly got married and brought her back home. Your opinion of this man would be ??? Spineless? Strange? A mummy's boy? Someone who didn't 'get' relationships? Well he is still the same man now that the wife is gone, and he is annoying the bejaysus out of the OP. Even though she loves him as a longstanding friend, etc., and even though she cares about the dv, she just wants all of this to be over. He does not seem to understand that he has outstayed his welcome with her and her DH. She has said this herself.

One way for it all to be over, for her anyway, would have been to find herself different digs and to move on herself, out of his life, to leave him to sort things out with his wife or not, as he saw fit. Since he apparently was not amenable to persuasion that he needed to do anything about his relationship at that time then really and truly she should have respected his right to manage his own life. You can't take over someone's life.

She can still end it for herself by just backing off. She can tell him that he is a grownup and can sort it out for himself. Assuming he has internet access he can google support for male victims of dv. If he wants to put an end to this situation he can. He knows how to take out a restraint order; he has done it before. He knows how to hire a solicitor. He is surely aware that private detectives exist who can trace the exW and serve any orders he can persuade a court to grant (and bailiffs can also find people who are hard to track down). If the OP wants to train him to be a man who can stand on his own two feet then leaving him to support himself and letting him practice is the way to go. Living his life for him, being angry on his behalf, taking the necessary steps to find the exW for him will result in him moping around and needing rescue next time he decides to take his chances with a woman his mother would approve of.

(Anyone besides me find it ironic that she feels intruded upon on weekends and annoyed by the presence of a third party in the home she shares with her DH btw?)

math, how can I misconstrue seeing someone get hit round the head? Is there any other way of seeing it? Regardless of what the gender of the victim is, is this appropriate behaviour?. I cannot see how you think getting shouted at, and hit and having things thrown would be be 'the making of' someone!

Just. Speechless.

I don't mind sharing my house with anyone! Just gets wearing when someone is always depressed.

And math, yes your scenario would work IF there was no dv or ea. But there WAS.